Preferred route update

[spiderweb]

I'm going to show you the preferred route from BWI-ALB. My actual route is FDK-DDH. The two times I've filed the following preferred route, I've been given a new one that takes me via CFB (and adds about 50 miles!), but then given direct ALB sometime before I had to turn to CFB.

OK, here's the route: BWI V93 LRP V449 CFB V270 DNY V449 ALB. How I'd like to file would be EMI LRP [same as above] then CAM. OK, but when I use the low-alt auto routing feature of CSC DUATS, they suggest: EMI V457 LRP V39 ETX V162 HUO V489 ALB. That would be nice, but I know I won't get it.

Any thoughts on this routing, oh wise and experienced ones?

 

[jdwatson]

As a follow-on question, is there an ATC facility that a pilot can call to find this information ? Would an FSS know ? Clearance ?

 

[grattonja]

I'm going to show you the preferred route from BWI-ALB. My actual route is FDK-DDH. The two times I've filed the following preferred route, I've been given a new one that takes me via CFB (and adds about 50 miles!), but then given direct ALB sometime before I had to turn to CFB.

OK, here's the route: BWI V93 LRP V449 CFB V270 DNY V449 ALB. How I'd like to file would be EMI LRP [same as above] then CAM. OK, but when I use the low-alt auto routing feature of CSC DUATS, they suggest: EMI V457 LRP V39 ETX V162 HUO V489 ALB. That would be nice, but I know I won't get it.

Any thoughts on this routing, oh wise and experienced ones?

Going from S37 to POU, I have both filed and gotten LRP V39 ETX V162 HUO direct POU. I would think that you would have some possibility of getting that route if filed. However, departing RUT, NE of ALB, I routinely get a crappy routing that includes Delancey and Lake Henry and Scranton. They always seem to want to route me north out of RUT. Over mountains. With few airports below. If you look at preferred IR routes from Burlington VT to points south, that seems to be where they get the routing that includes Delancey and Lake Henry.

I haven't actually gone to ALB yet. You seem to be between the two airports for which I have gotten routings. I would try filing the ETX HUO routing that you would like. What the heck. The worst they can do is say no.

Jim G

 

[jdwatson]

So true, you're going to get whatever they are going to give you. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what I get this Friday KRDU -> KFDK -> KPOU.

 

[inav8r]

Aren't preferred routes in the back of the A/FD?

 

[grattonja]

Aren't preferred routes in the back of the A/FD?

That is correct.

Jim G

 

[poadeleted20]

Aren't preferred routes in the back of the A/FD?

Both the Preferred IFR and Tower Enroute Control routes are in the A/FD, but they are in separate places -- check both, and especially in the Northeast, look for altitude, speed, and number of engine restrictions, as there may be for a single city pair a Preferred IFR route for multiengine aircraft over 250 knots, and separate TEC routes for single and multi piston planes. If you don't look in each place, you may miss the one for you.

 

[bbchien]

Ben, did you get my email?

Bruce

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks!!!!

 

[jdwatson]

Hey Ben,
How does ATC in the FDK area prefer you to pick up your clearances ? Via the RCO ? Phone ? in the air VFR ?

I'm trying to fit in with the local conventions. Most places I fly from have clearance delivery frequencies or ground control.

 

[Ryan Ferguson]

Who cares? File what you want, take what you get, negotiate later.

BTW, in some regions, many controllers are completely unaware of the "preferred" routes. In fact, they might (i.e. probably do) prefer something altogether different, and you have no way of knowing what that is unless you call the facility. Me, I'd rather spend that time with my 15 mo. old daughter instead.

 

[jdwatson]

Who cares? File what you want, take what you get, negotiate later.

BTW, in some regions, many controllers are completely unaware of the "preferred" routes. In fact, they might (i.e. probably do) prefer something altogether different, and you have no way of knowing what that is unless you call the facility. Me, I'd rather spend that time with my 15 mo. old daughter instead.

Ryan,
Y'all can spot us newbies with questions like this one. Us new IFR pilots are trying so hard to fit in, anticipate and plan, plan, plan. I'm slowly learning that there isn't much one can do to anticipate routing unless there *is* a TEC or preferred route. I try not to be a jerk by just filing direct everywhere. I do like hearing about what other pilots have gotten for routing many to verify my fuel planning. The "nav log" concept seems to be an academic exercise to get a general idea what the time & fuel will be. The electronic gizmos really help with a re-route or an unexpected hold. I watch the change in distance and ETA, then adjust my fuel estimates.

Now if I could just quit stammering on the readback of ILS clearances !

 

[spiderweb]

Hey Ben,
How does ATC in the FDK area prefer you to pick up your clearances ? Via the RCO ? Phone ? in the air VFR ?

I'm trying to fit in with the local conventions. Most places I fly from have clearance delivery frequencies or ground control.

There is a GCO there: 126.9. Get your clearance, but don't bother calling Potomac until you are at least at 1,500 MSL--they won't hear you much below that, and they probably won't have you on RADAR until a bit above that.

 

[spiderweb]

Who cares? File what you want, take what you get, negotiate later.

BTW, in some regions, many controllers are completely unaware of the "preferred" routes. In fact, they might (i.e. probably do) prefer something altogether different, and you have no way of knowing what that is unless you call the facility. Me, I'd rather spend that time with my 15 mo. old daughter instead.

LOL. Yep--I might just file what I want to file. Their preferred is so out of the way. My excuse is that their route is BWI-ALB, and I am going FDK-DDH (like it is so different! )

 

[Ryan Ferguson]

LOL. Yep--I might just file what I want to file. Their preferred is so out of the way. My excuse is that their route is BWI-ALB, and I am going FDK-DDH (like it is so different! )

I'll let you in on a little secret. There IS sometimes a way to find the "classified" preferred routes. Get a free account at fltplan.com and learn how to use their site. When you file an IFR flight plan, one of the options is to choose popular routes instead of your own or direct. If you see multiple aircraft filing a certain route between two airports, you can bet that's the "preferred" route and 9 times out of 10 you'll get the same clearance. Works like a charm.

-Ryan

 

[Ryan Ferguson]

I try not to be a jerk by just filing direct everywhere.

Been reading Don Brown or sum'n? File direct! It's your avgas, and your taxpayer dollars at work. Or, file to a fix right on or close to your route within the departure terminal area, then direct. That's one little bit of help you can give to a controller if you're going to "1B1" from Orlando, for example... they have no idea where that is (it's in New York) and don't know how to handle your route out of the terminal area. But they do know if KIZER's in their airspace, and to the north. So I'd file KORL-KIZER-1B1 and leave it at that.

I think Don Brown's full of it. I've spoken with several controllers at various levels in the system who have no problem with folks who file direct. No need to suffer guilt and anxiety over asking for what you want, JD.

Now if I could just quit stammering on the readback of ILS clearances !

If all else fails... "Cleared for the approach!" is a good readback.

 

[jdwatson]

I like your form of filing direct. I'd be curious to know if the deep dark secret FAA routing computers even try to accomodate your route request. It'd be interesting to know just how many points are necessary to influence what you get versus filing like in your example.

P.S. My parents don't live to far from 1B1 in Hyde Park, NY. They've been looking for land in Columbia county.

 

[jdwatson]

There is a GCO there: 126.9. Get your clearance, but don't bother calling Potomac until you are at least at 1,500 MSL--they won't hear you much below that, and they probably won't have you on RADAR until a bit above that.

That's the ticket ! Thanks for advice.

 

[spiderweb]

YES!!! I already have an account at fltplan.com. I will do this!

I'll let you in on a little secret. There IS sometimes a way to find the "classified" preferred routes. Get a free account at fltplan.com and learn how to use their site. When you file an IFR flight plan, one of the options is to choose popular routes instead of your own or direct. If you see multiple aircraft filing a certain route between two airports, you can bet that's the "preferred" route and 9 times out of 10 you'll get the same clearance. Works like a charm.

-Ryan

 

[CFIse]

YES!!! I already have an account at fltplan.com. I will do this!

Make sure you read the routes offered - it may just be me - but most of the routes offered are Jet routes - which may not always be appropriate....

 

[Ryan Ferguson]

Make sure you read the routes offered - it may just be me - but most of the routes offered are Jet routes - which may not always be appropriate....

Right. Check the aircraft type... if you see some small planes flying the routes, it's one that you'll probably get.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

http://www.xcpilot.com/routes

This might help, I have not used it for I am but a lowly VFR Pilot.


KD

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think Don Brown's full of it. I've spoken with several controllers at various levels in the system who have no problem with folks who file direct. No need to suffer guilt and anxiety over asking for what you want, JD.

Don Brown may be overly enthusiastic about certain things, but he isn't "full of it," he's by the book:

________________________
5-1-8. Flight Plan- IFR Flights
d. Area Navigation (RNAV)

1. Random RNAV routes can only be approved in a radar environment. Factors that will be considered by ATC in approving random RNAV routes include the capability to provide radar monitoring and compatibility with traffic volume and flow. ATC will radar monitor each flight, however, navigation on the random RNAV route is the responsibility of the pilot.

2. Pilots of aircraft equipped with approved area navigation equipment may file for RNAV routes throughout the National Airspace System and may be filed for in accordance with the following procedures.

(c) Plan the random route portion of the flight plan to begin and end over appropriate arrival and departure transition fixes or appropriate navigation aids for the altitude stratum within which the flight will be conducted. The use of normal preferred departure and arrival routes (DP/STAR), where established, is recommended.

(d) File route structure transitions to and from the random route portion of the flight.

(f) File a minimum of one route description waypoint for each ARTCC through whose area the random route will be flown. These waypoints must be located within 200 NM of the preceding center's boundary.
________________________

The above is pretty much exactly what he recommends, and he gives his reasoning quite clearly. Nowhere direct Timbuktu through his airspace gives him no clue where you're going. OK when it's not busy, but when it is busy, why not make it easier on the controllers? And if something is a good idea when the poop hits the prop, isn't it a good idea to get into good habits anyway?

I find Don Brown's columns have some very interesting tidbits - Such as "don't thank me for doing a good job on frequency" and that sort of thing. Who'd have known? So, while he's a bit overzealous about certain things, I figure it doesn't hurt to do what he says either. Really, how difficult is it to add one radio fix per center into your flight plan? It won't cause you to burn extra fuel, it'll just make the controllers' job a bit easier.

 

[gismo]

Don Brown may be overly enthusiastic about certain things, but he isn't "full of it," he's by the book:

The above is pretty much exactly what he recommends, and he gives his reasoning quite clearly. Nowhere direct Timbuktu through his airspace gives him no clue where you're going. OK when it's not busy, but when it is busy, why not make it easier on the controllers? And if something is a good idea when the poop hits the prop, isn't it a good idea to get into good habits anyway?

I find Don Brown's columns have some very interesting tidbits - Such as "don't thank me for doing a good job on frequency" and that sort of thing. Who'd have known? So, while he's a bit overzealous about certain things, I figure it doesn't hurt to do what he says either. Really, how difficult is it to add one radio fix per center into your flight plan? It won't cause you to burn extra fuel, it'll just make the controllers' job a bit easier.

I also enjoy (some of) Don's articles, but he is definitely anti "direct destination". Like Ryan, I've found that most controllers outside of the east coast strip are perfectly OK with direct flights as long as you stay reasonably away from Class B and hot SUA. I file most of my flights with nothing but a single close in waypoint if any. I have found a few times where putting a well known VOR near the destination in as as waypoint helps a little, but what almost always happens is I get a departure clearance with a heading in the right general direction (too bad the flight plan doesn't allow me to state the direction of flight) which is followed up by ATC asking me what my heading will be to the destination (they always ask for a heading when I can more easily give a course). If I include the above mentioned waypoint they still ask and will often offer direct destination even if the waypoint is right on the route. Now many of my flights cross several ATC center's airspace and they seem perfectly capable of figuring out that the heading I need is the one I'm already on when I come into their sector. Why they would need a waypoint to tell that is beyond me, and on such long trips I often end up deviating quite a ways for weather so the waypoint in the next center's airspace is no longer where I want to go anyway.

Don is correct in that what he want's is what the AIM says, but IME that part of the AIM is about ten years out of date. When I have filed exactly per the AIM, the ATC computer seems to make hash out of my route by substituting lat/lon coordinates for each of the waypoints and the controllers are often in the dark as to where these coordinates are. I've had more than one ask why in the world did I file that way and after I explain they mutter something like "damn computers" and then they ask me for the waypoint identifiers I filed! And once we get all through that the next sector is likely to give me direct destination anyway.

My feeling is that you might as well forget all those waypoints and file direct to destination and keep life simple. Another point is that Don and the AIM suggest that you should include a transition to the terminal routing structure before the actual destination. IME this often doesn't work since there are ususally different transition points for different approaches and you can't predict with any accuracy which approach you will want/need when you arrive.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I very much enjoy reading Don Brown; have had a couple very spirited e-mail debates with him. If you're going to fly through his airspace, of course, he's right on. He's absolutely not correct about filing direct where I live.

I fly from ADS--Addison to C47 direct. There is a DP to get me out of Addison, so no interim fix is required. If I file intermediate fixes it confuses the heck out of the guys here. Also, if I deviate for MOAs, weather, traffic, they are useless. Center wants me direct from where I diverted, not back on an original track. I filed direct from C47 to SFD (Orlando area). Went right over Chicago and Atlanta at FL190. Direct from ADS to El Paso. Direct ADS to Charlottesville.

Now, from El Paso to San Diego--no way. It's on the airways because of the MOAs and restricted areas; although, I have gotten direct from El Paso to Stanfield. I understand up in the northeast, you'll be on an airway. On the west coast, a lot of Tower Enroute Clearances. So, different places do things differently. One must adjust.

Don has several other things that seem unique to where he is. That's not bad; just the way it is. As with anything/anyone you learn all you can and adjust for where you're actually flying. 95% of what Don says is great. In other areas, some doesn't apply. I don't think I know anyone that is right 100% of the time--I even disagreed with Lance---Once

Do I need to go into how Havana Center did some stuff?? They didn't seem follow some of Don Brown's tips.

Best,

Dave