Precautionary Tale Regarding Checkouts

[spiderweb]

A few days ago, I had an experience I think would be valuable to share with the POA community.

It had been nearly two months since I had last flown, so I decided I'd like to do some practice airwork and landings, and I rented the SR20 and a new (to me) CFI from the flight school I now use. I know the CFI, and this instructor has a good reputation. I know some of this instructor's students, and they are very competent pilots, and very knowledgeable, as well.

The challenge with the SR20 is that CFIs are flying the Cessnas and Pipers all day, but not the SR20, so much. The other problem is that the sight picture on landing the SR20 is incredibly different from Cessnas and Pipers, as I found out when I transitioned a couple of years ago. As pilots experienced in this type will tell you, you do not "stall it on," and you must be mindful of the flare angle.

So, the airwork went fine, but the trouble began with the landings. The Cirrus not only lands a bit flatter than Cessnas, but the landing attitude also looks a lot flatter in the flare than Cessnas. So, on the first landing, I'm on airspeed on final--76 KIAS recommended--and I talk through everything so the instructor knows what I'm doing (since this is our first flight together). Runway made, I pull out the last bit of power. Everything feels familiar and good.

Here's where it got dicey, though. At about 15 feet AGL, CFI commands me to pull back. No need at that height, but I pull a tiny bit back to make the CFI happy. Probably now we are at 10 feet AGL, in a LEVEL attitude, bleeding off speed, I'm commanded to "keep on pulling." We are actually fighting each other on the stick, and I am becoming increasingly dismayed.

So, I very calmly say, "We're pretty level; I think I can let her settle a bit before pulling again," and CFI lets go, thankfully. Now we are about 5 feet AGL, slightly nose-high, but sinking at a gentle rate, so it shouldn't be that bad; BUT now I get the command for me to pull more.

Now, I KNOW that our nose attitude is probably already about 5 degrees nose-high, and that in situation, with no power, a few knots above stall, and floating 5 AGL, that we are going to land hard. But CFI actually pulled back some more, and we start to balloon a bit from where we are. I am doubtful of a good landing, to say the least!

I don't know why I thought that saving face would be more important, at this point, than survival, but what I did to save things was to add probably 200 RPM of power. Even with the power, we landed hard--a definite pancake.

So, I was ****ed. Diplomatically, CFI asked me to analyze the landing. So, I very frankly said, "Well I think we flared too high. Maybe on this one, let me talk us through a landing the way [original transition instructor] showed me how to do it." Long story short, it was much better. CFI said that was "interesting;" but I did four more landings the same way, all of which were good to very good.

The lesson learned here, I think, is 1) certain aircraft need specific training, and refresher training is best done with a CFI familiar with the idiosyncrasies of that aircraft, and 2) to know that you know what you know; and to make sure that you act first for safety.

 

[spiderweb]

As a postscript, I want to say that I believe that this instructor is a very good pilot, teacher; and very knowledgeable. I would fly with the CFI again, with no qualms at all. I would simply be a bit more assertive,

 

[BillTIZ]

I would have told the CFI that his actions stalled us onto the runway.
If he wants to fly, say, "I have the aircraft", Otherwise keep your mits off the stick!

I also would have made an appointment to visit with the Chief CFI after the session.
I'm surprised you took off for another trip around the traffic pattern.

 

[douglas393]

As you suggested would a go around have been a better idea at that point, and then get into the pattern and have the conversation you had without the hard landing and possibly less angst.

 

[spiderweb]

I would have told the CFI that his actions stalled us onto the runway.
If he wants to fly, say, "I have the aircraft", Otherwise keep your mits off the stick!

I also would have made an appointment to visit with the Chief CFI after the session.
I'm surprised you took off for another trip around the traffic pattern.

The reason I did was that I could see that the CFI realized the error immediately after touchdown!

 

[spiderweb]

As you suggested would a go around have been a better idea at that point, and then get into the pattern and have the conversation you had without the hard landing and possibly less angst.

Yes. That was my mistake.

 

[Everskyward]

Yes. That was my mistake.

But then the CFI might not have see the error of his ways.

I think I scared the heck out of my boss the first time he let me land the C-320 and I did a C-206 type flare with it. He was not a CFI and probably not expecting that.

 

[LifeInverted]

We are actually fighting each other on the stick, and I am becoming increasingly dismayed.


I don't know why I thought that saving face would be more important, at this point, than survival

First of all, great write up. Great [pilot] minds don't always think alike, and both your lives are on the line. Saving face is never more important than survival, only one should be flying the airplane. Never see the experience level of the person next to you as a safety voucher and assume what they're doing is always correct. Communication between you two is key

Glad this one had a positive outcome

 

[Doggtyred]

I would have told the CFI that his actions stalled us onto the runway.
If he wants to fly, say, "I have the aircraft", Otherwise keep your mits off the stick!

I also would have made an appointment to visit with the Chief CFI after the session.
I'm surprised you took off for another trip around the traffic pattern.

Actually, the way he did it ended up being a learning opportunity for the CFI, if the CFI chooses to learn from it.

Had this escalated to the front office right off the bat, I dont think it could have been resolved constructively.

I agree on the whole positive transfer of control. Sounds like some things were just assumed prior to the flight, rather than being made clear.

 

[spiderweb]

But then the CFI might not have see the error of his ways.

I think I scared the heck out of my boss the first time he let me land the C-320 and I did a C-206 type flare with it. He was not a CFI and probably not expecting that.

Stories like yours and mine are testament to how strong the legs of GA aircraft are!

 

[spiderweb]

First of all, great write up. Great [pilot] minds don't always think alike, and both your lives are on the line. Saving face is never more important than survival, only one should be flying the airplane. Never see the experience level of the person next to you as a safety voucher and assume what they're doing is always correct. Communication between you two is key

Glad this one had a positive outcome

I think I am a cad for "secretly" adding that cushion of power!

But yes, I've learned. I think the CFI has, as well.

 

[Warrior]

great story! interesting that instructors are human too.

 

[Dr. O]

One thing I learned a long time ago is when flying with another pilot - CFI or not - is to instruct them in no uncertain terms that "I" am the PIC. When I say "My airplane" they are to let go and not interfere.

Am I arrogant?
It may appear so - BUT, there can only be one PIC and that needs to be understood or the potential for a bad outcome is there. The military and the airlines understand this and codify it in their operating orders.
This is not aimed at Ben. I think he did a fine job of handling the situation that came up unexpectedly.
But, I suspect he will have a heart-to-heart with his CFI's in the future, before engine start.

cheers...

 

[MassPilot]

One thing I learned a long time ago is when flying with another pilot - CFI or not - is to instruct them in no uncertain terms that "I" am the PIC. When I say "My airplane" they are to let go and not interfere.

Am I arrogant?
It may appear so - BUT, there can only be one PIC and that needs to be understood or the potential for a bad outcome is there. The military and the airlines understand this and codify it in their operating orders.
This is not aimed at Ben. I think he did a fine job of handling the situation that came up unexpectedly.
But, I suspect he will have a heart-to-heart with his CFI's in the future, before engine start.

cheers...

In this situation I'm pretty sure the CFI was PIC.

 

[JHW]

There was a time that I found myself through a comedy of errors assigned as a check pilot. When the airplane was russian made, I was 21 years old and american, and the trainee was 60 and spoke russian, I didn't feel the need to offer much in the way of advice.

 

[Skylane81E]

But then the CFI might not have see the error of his ways.

I think I scared the heck out of my boss the first time he let me land the C-320 and I did a C-206 type flare with it. He was not a CFI and probably not expecting that.

I did that the first time I landed our Chieftain, I cut the power over the runway end lights, I think you could call it a "positive" arrival

 

[Warrior]

We had a Cessna 150 trainer in our flying club and I think twice I really dropped it hard onto the runway. Thankfully all the gears held up ok.

 

[ChrisK]

We had a Cessna 150 trainer in our flying club and I think twice I really dropped it hard onto the runway. Thankfully all the gears held up ok.

I think that's what Cessna 150's are for.

 

[jesse]

Airplanes are tough. A hard landing every now and then is just the life of an instructor. It happens. You both learned something. The world keeps turning

 

[SkyHog]

I'd have gone around, announced "I'm not paying for this time anymore, you're the PIC, and you can fly this thing however you want."

Douchebag CFIs like the one you had are dangerous. Fighting you for control is a really bad sign, and the fact that he would undertake that at that step in the process and not instead demand a go around instead is ridiculous. You're not a primary student, you're a pilot. Fire him, report him, and never use him again. His dangerous attitude is going to kill someone some day.

When asked later what went wrong, my response would have been "You're an awful instructor, and you almost killed us." Its not over the top, fighting for control during a flare is dangerous, and he should be ashamed.

 

[ProspectingCFI]

Well, those are some pretty harsh words ^^^ but for the most part I'd agree and I'd be worried about a cfi fighting the controls on me. That's one of the more dangerous situations I can think of when landing a plane.

 

[cirrusmx]

that cfi tried to do the cessna landing on a cirrus, BIG NO NO. add the ego and you are set for a hard landing. Some people think because they have the CFi rating they are automatically more knowledgable than someone that is not an instructor.

 

[cirrusmx]

i would have fire him right after engine shutdown.

 

[Skylane81E]

that cfi tried to do the cessna landing on a cirrus, BIG NO NO. add the ego and you are set for a hard landing. Some people think because they have the CFi rating they are automatically more knowledgable than someone that is not an instructor.

I have to shout in my head
"Keep the nose down!"
every time I fly a Cirrus, I also don't fly final fast enough.

 

[davidm767]

I don't neccessarily disagree with all of Nicks post...but I dont think the CFI from the OPs post seems like a typical "DB" CFI that really doesnt care about safety or teaching. A simple yet firm "Reminder" of what PIC is and what Positive Exchange of Flight Controls means should be enough to put the CFI in his place (Because you are in the right). If not, then its a good time to talk to the chief and not fly with the guy again.

As for the CFI in the OPs post, I hope the OP talks to this CFI (pulls him aside) and reminds him that he is troubled by his actions. Additionally, the OP is on the right path when stating: Just because someone is a CFI it does not qualify them to be an expert in every aircraft...A GOOD CFI will recognize this and either offer another CFI who is more qualified or be humble enough to take every oppurtunity learn from each new experiance.

 

[spiderweb]

One thing I learned a long time ago is when flying with another pilot - CFI or not - is to instruct them in no uncertain terms that "I" am the PIC. When I say "My airplane" they are to let go and not interfere.

Am I arrogant?
It may appear so - BUT, there can only be one PIC and that needs to be understood or the potential for a bad outcome is there. The military and the airlines understand this and codify it in their operating orders.
This is not aimed at Ben. I think he did a fine job of handling the situation that came up unexpectedly.
But, I suspect he will have a heart-to-heart with his CFI's in the future, before engine start.

cheers...

You are quite right.

 

[spiderweb]

In this situation I'm pretty sure the CFI was PIC.

No, I was PIC. I am rated and current. If there had been a bad outcome, it would have come down on me.

 

[spiderweb]

I don't neccessarily disagree with all of Nicks post...but I dont think the CFI from the OPs post seems like a typical "DB" CFI that really doesnt care about safety or teaching. A simple yet firm "Reminder" of what PIC is and what Positive Exchange of Flight Controls means should be enough to put the CFI in his place (Because you are in the right). If not, then its a good time to talk to the chief and not fly with the guy again.

As for the CFI in the OPs post, I hope the OP talks to this CFI (pulls him aside) and reminds him that he is troubled by his actions. Additionally, the OP is on the right path when stating: Just because someone is a CFI it does not qualify them to be an expert in every aircraft...A GOOD CFI will recognize this and either offer another CFI who is more qualified or be humble enough to take every oppurtunity learn from each new experiance.

And I think that was the situation, in this case. The CFI realized that the problem was theirs, and not mine, after I demonstrated a few more good landings. I don't see a need to take it further up the food chain. In the debrief, I reinforced in a humble way (saying, "I think it is interesting") that the Cirrus is very different in the flare than Cessnas.

I learned something, and I think the CFI did, too. And again, this CFI is known as a very good one, with excellent students.

 

[MassPilot]

No, I was PIC. I am rated and current. If there had been a bad outcome, it would have come down on me.

I am also rated and current, but every time I fly with a CFI in a rental, they are PIC and responsible for anything that happens. I thought this was pretty much automatic.

 

[spiderweb]

I am also rated and current, but every time I fly with a CFI in a rental, they are PIC and responsible for anything that happens. I thought this was pretty much automatic.

Why would you think that? If you cracked up an airplane with a CFI on board, and you were rated and current, do you think the flight school's insurance would consider the CFI PIC?

 

[azure]

It seems there are quite a few CFIs who would rather err on the side of overflaring rather than not flaring enough, regardless of the specific model. The club CFI who I did my last BFR with thought I was flirting with a nosewheel prang in my Cardinal. The truth is that the sight picture in the flare is different than in a 172 or a 182, the correct attitude looks flat if you're used to the more popular birds (though probably not as much as in the Cirrus, I've never flown a Cirrus so I'm not sure). Plus, it doesn't take much to overflare the Cardinal because of the extra pitch authority from the stabilator. But after hearing about the issues with a certain 172 that is looking at an expensive firewall repair due to someone's mishandling, I can't say I blame him.

Still, I would be very upset if he or any instructor actually grabbed the controls from me during the flare (or any other time, really) in an airplane that I knew better than he did. To assume that you are qualified to second guess the PIC just because you have those extra three letters after your name is bloody arrogant and definitely a dangerous attitude. Even if he realized immediately that he was in the wrong, the fact that he forgot his place so easily at such a critical time would make me think twice about ever letting him right seat with me again.

 

[spiderweb]

It seems there are quite a few CFIs who would rather err on the side of overflaring rather than not flaring enough, regardless of the specific model. The club CFI who I did my last BFR with thought I was flirting with a nosewheel prang in my Cardinal. The truth is that the sight picture in the flare is different than in a 172 or a 182, the correct attitude looks flat if you're used to the more popular birds (though probably not as much as in the Cirrus, I've never flown a Cirrus so I'm not sure). Plus, it doesn't take much to overflare the Cardinal because of the extra pitch authority from the stabilator. But after hearing about the issues with a certain 172 that is looking at an expensive firewall repair due to someone's mishandling, I can't say I blame him.

Still, I would be very upset if he or any instructor actually grabbed the controls from me during the flare (or any other time, really) in an airplane that I knew better than he did. To assume that you are qualified to second guess the PIC just because you have those extra three letters after your name is bloody arrogant and definitely a dangerous attitude. Even if he realized immediately that he was in the wrong, the fact that he forgot his place so easily at such a critical time would make me think twice about ever letting him right seat with me again.

I suppose I am giving the CFI some cushion simply because of the experience and demonstrably excellent students. Also, I've known this teacher for a few years, and admire the person's good work and affability--something I especially appreciate, since I am also a teacher.

I also find it interesting that the pronouns used here are all masculine.

 

[MassPilot]

Why would you think that? If you cracked up an airplane with a CFI on board, and you were rated and current, do you think the flight school's insurance would consider the CFI PIC?

Yes I've been under that assumption the few times I've flown with a CFI in a rental since I passed my checkride. I definitely considered him to be in charge of the flight.

I found this thread on the topic:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27372

I don't have time to read through it all carefully, but it seems like it might be a gray area.

 

[GCA319]

If a CFI is onboard acting as a CFI, then he/she is the acting PIC. Doesn't mean you can't log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls, which has nothing to do with being the acting PIC. There are exceptions to this rule, but in most cases this is the way the FAA is going to see it.

 

[cirrusmx]

If a CFI is onboard acting as a CFI, then he/she is the acting PIC. Doesn't mean you can't log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls, which has nothing to do with being the acting PIC. There are exceptions to this rule, but in most cases this is the way the FAA is going to see it.

But a cfi can only act cfi/pic on an airplane he knows how to fly. If he dont know how to fly it he better shut up and be a good passenger.

 

[davidm767]

If a CFI is onboard acting as a CFI, then he/she is the acting PIC. Doesn't mean you can't log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls, which has nothing to do with being the acting PIC. There are exceptions to this rule, but in most cases this is the way the FAA is going to see it.

Very true. Although the certified pilot is appropriately rated for the aircraft as the sole manipulator of the controls, I am also PIC while GIVING instruction in the aircraft.

The scary part is when I'm flying with a friend and NOT giving instruction. In such a case if the aircraft has an accident (not mechanical related), legal precedence has it that I'm still responsible...the downside of being a CFI.

Funny that Ben noticed that the most of our pronouns are masculine as opposed to feminine. I’ve noticed that too, even though I’ve had many CFI’s that are female (great pilots!) during my career. I’ve used masculine as opposed to feminine because of the role of the CFI tends to err on the side of an authoritarian and mentor and less of a teacher. I’m pretty good at being PC due to my job, but some habits are hard to die.

 

[GCA319]

But a cfi can only act cfi/pic on an airplane he knows how to fly. If he dont know how to fly it he better shut up and be a good passenger.

Notice how I said "acting as a CFI". I'm not going to jump into my friend's 421 and pretend I'm anything more than a passenger (or co pilot doing radio work and stuff if he wants) even though he is a private pilot and I am the higher rated pilot/rated instructor.

 

[MassPilot]

I can't imagine a scenario in which I'm flying a plane rented from an FBO with one of their CFI's, and they are not the legal PIC. Whether it's instruction, a checkout, or a flight review shouldn't matter. Sure I can log PIC time, but I believe that they are ultimately in charge of the flight and responsible for any damage or violations. If I'm wrong about this, can someone please post a link or something that shows otherwise?

 

[cirrusmx]

Notice how I said "acting as a CFI". I'm not going to jump into my friend's 421 and pretend I'm anything more than a passenger (or co pilot doing radio work and stuff if he wants) even though he is a private pilot and I am the higher rated pilot/rated instructor.

so what if you are the pimply face low time cfi and your friend is only a 5,000 hours rated private pilot? or even yet, what if you are flying with a 30,000 hr commercial pilot who is not a cfi and you are still a low time cfi? Experience and knowledge should trump the cfi rating. If you dont know how to fly a particular type, then you have no business taking controls and being PIC of that airplane. maybe doing the radios is ok.

 

[GCA319]

so what if you are the pimply face low time cfi and your friend is only a 5,000 hours rated privc pilot? or even yet, what if you are flying with a 30,000 hr commercial pilot who is not a cfi and you are still a low time cfi? Experience and knowledge should trump the cfi rating. If you dont know how to fly a particular type, then you have no business taking controls and being PIC of that airplane. maybe doing the radios is ok.

Heh...you misread me again. Read my post again and you'll see that I said I am in no way qualified to fly the 421, so I cant be anything more than a passenger in it. And I don't have too much acne, but thanks for your concern