Prebuy in Dallas TX, use a broker? I'm n CA.

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TazzyTazzy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Mitch
Hey ya all'. I think we found our Cessna, but we are in California and the possible plane is in Dallas Tx.

This is also our first plane. I'm thinking a broker may be the best bet. They can check out the plane, negotiate, have a pre-buy done, etc...

Two questions:
About how much do buyer-broker cost and does anyone know one near Dallas TX?

I'm thinking one won't cost too much more than my airfare + hotel + rental car + time off work.

The next major question: anyone know a good shop for a pre-buy and if the plane is is good, turn into an annual.

Thoughts? Pm me any names.
 
What aircraft type? Located at what field?

Many possible solutions in D/FW. Many good ones. If it's a Cessna, we have a REALLY good solution in John Efinger at T67.

If you need a ferry pilot I know of a good one who is doing work for Van Bortel.
 
Don't know anyone in Dallas but I can recommend using a broker in general if the price is right.

My broker charged a flat rate of $5k. He saved me a lot by first negotiating the price of my airplane down by $18k and then the pre-buy saved me an additional ~$20k for a very major engine repair because they did a borescope and found spalling cams (and some cylinder pitting too but the cams were the deal breaker).

As it turned out the seller agreed to have the repairs done at a reputable shop here in Colorado and we didn't change the sale price of the aircraft even though it had been torn down, inspected, 'new' cam, new pistons and rings, honed cylinders, new oil pump, new vac pump.

I wouldn't have used this broker at this price if I had been buying a C172 or similar but I still would have done the pre-buy of course.
 
The last thing I would do is engage a broker. Absolute last. If you think a broker is technically capable I have a bridge for sale just east of Manhattan.
 
docmirror said:
The last thing I would do is engage a broker. Absolute last. If you think a broker is technically capable I have a bridge for sale just east of Manhattan.
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Technically capable of what, exactly? The broker is not doing the pre-buy inspection. The broker is there to assist the buyer in finding the right airplane (mine had sources other than published ones) and negotiating the sale price and terms, providing advice on contractual matters and facilitating or setting up the pre-buy inspection (to be done by others).

For me, all these things turned out to be very helpful and kept me out of a lot of trouble.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
Hey ya all'. I think we found our Cessna, but we are in California and the possible plane is in Dallas Tx.
.
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petrolero said:
Technically capable of what, exactly? The broker is not doing the pre-buy inspection. The broker is there to assist the buyer in finding the right airplane (mine had sources other than published ones) and negotiating the sale price and terms, providing advice on contractual matters and facilitating or setting up the pre-buy inspection (to be done by others).

For me, all these things turned out to be very helpful and kept me out of a lot of trouble.
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Um - better to read the OPs post first. A broker is a guy who charges you to find you a plane. The OP is past that point, and moving on to inspection. Why pay a broker, to find a mechanic, to do the technical job that needs done?

Look, if you want to pay a guy to find a guy, to do a job that's ok with me. I personally had a mom, but she's dead now, so I'm an adult and can do for myself. Of course, nothing wrong with hiring someone when you don't know what you're doing, but the OP doesn't need a find a plane, he needs to inspect the one he's found.
 
docmirror said:
Um - better to read the OPs post first. A broker is a guy who charges you to find you a plane. The OP is past that point, and moving on to inspection. Why pay a broker, to find a mechanic, to do the technical job that needs done?

Look, if you want to pay a guy to find a guy, to do a job that's ok with me. I personally had a mom, but she's dead now, so I'm an adult and can do for myself. Of course, nothing wrong with hiring someone when you don't know what you're doing, but the OP doesn't need a find a plane, he needs to inspect the one he's found.
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Um.. better read my post first. I said this:

"I can recommend using a broker in general if the price is right..."

I went on to describe what a broker does, which includes finding the right airplane. Who's to say this airplane he found in Texas will end up being the right airplane? It may well fail inspection, I don't know.

So in that case the OP may wish to engage a broker down the line, although probably not in Texas. I thought he might benefit from knowing my experience.

So simmer down.
 
Twin_Flyer said:
:yeahthat: The type of plane could determine the reccommendations!!!:yes:
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Reading is fundamental...he said a Cessna.

I second John Efingwr if he's available, he stays pretty busy, I doubt anyone in the area knows Cessna aircraft better than John.
 
Ya know, time for a whatev. You made your point, I made mine. It would be nice to get a little respect for an opposing point of view, but no - that's can't happen.

So - whatev.
 
AggieMike88 said:
What aircraft type? Located at what field?

Many possible solutions in D/FW. Many good ones. If it's a Cessna, we have a REALLY good solution in John Efinger at T67.

If you need a ferry pilot I know of a good one who is doing work for Van Bortel.
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It's a Cessna 182. Without giving my find away too fast, it's about a 30-50 minute flight away from T67.

Does John do good a pre-buy with an annual if it passes pre-buy? I know pre-buy and annual is same but different. They check different things, but doing an annual after a pre-buy seems to make logical sense.
 
timwinters said:
Reading is fundamental...he said a Cessna.

I second John Efingwr if he's available, he stays pretty busy, I doubt anyone in the area knows Cessna aircraft better than John.
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Yes it is but I guess being as a$$ comes easy. If it's a twin my answer is different thatn if it's a single.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Located at what field?
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I already know the current field doesn't have a good place to do pre-buy or annual. Owner told me not to go there from his past experience. He didn't suggest a place, just not to go the one on the field. :wink2:
 
TazzyTazzy said:
It's a Cessna 182. Without giving my find away too fast, it's about a 30-50 minute flight away from T67.

Does John do good a pre-buy with an annual if it passes pre-buy? I know pre-buy and annual is same but different. They check different things, but doing an annual after a pre-buy seems to make logical sense.
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A friend of mine is going through this now... but his plane is in California and he's in Virginia... The pre-buy they're doing is a complete annual that he's footing the bill for, mostly in labor hours and some associated fees.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
It's a Cessna 182. Without giving my find away too fast, it's about a 30-50 minute flight away from T67.

Does John do good a pre-buy with an annual if it passes pre-buy? I know pre-buy and annual is same but different. They check different things, but doing an annual after a pre-buy seems to make logical sense.
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You will have to call John and ask him. Doing a thorough inspection and then report to you, and upon approval converting to a full annual sounds reasonable. It's just a few additional steps and then completing the logbooks.

OkieAviator said:
A friend of mine is going through this now... but his plane is in California and he's in Virginia... The pre-buy they're doing is a complete annual that he's footing the bill for, mostly in labor hours and some associated fees.
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Tazzy; don't forget to do a buying agreement. This can make the process go smoother. And give your seller confidence that barring a major catastrophe, the transaction will go through. A buying agreement can cover details such as
  • Agreed upon price.
  • That an escrow agency is to be used, and which one
  • Money is in escrow and can be verified by seller
  • If a deposit is in play and how much.
  • If the deal implodes, what happens to the deposit.
  • How the pre-purchase inspection will be done and who pays for it
  • Can the aircraft be moved to the inspector or must inspector come to airplane
  • If di$crepencie$ are found during the inspection, specify who i$ paying for what item$ (often airworthy items are on the seller, minor items are negotiated)
  • What happens money wise if a big major item occurs after transaction is done
  • If any items are to be seller paid, how does the mechanic get his money
  • How does seller get his money once all variances are settled.
  • .... and any other detail that you both think is important to commit to paper.
AOPA has a good boiler plate template to start with. Call their pilot information center to get it emailed to you.

Handshake and verbal agreements can still be done. But there's a increasing risk of implosion, mainly due to lack of good and documented communication
 
OkieAviator said:
The pre-buy they're doing is a complete annual that he's footing the bill for, mostly in labor hours and some associated fees.
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That's what I did with the 'kota. Sorta ****ed the seller off but that was not my concern at all. Annual inspection and borescope, some will call it overkill but I consider it money well spent. On a 182 be sure to look at the door posts and overhead structure. Corrosion is a real concern...

Where is Wayne anyway? The guys that could really help out aren't around when ya need them. Running the aircraft through his shop would get Mitch an honest opinion.
 
I don't know the reason you need a broker if you already found a plane.

You need a mechanic to see if it is what you think it is with regard to condition.

If you need help with the negotiating, tell me what you want to pay, and I will ask real nice if the Seller will take it.

That is what negotiating is.
 
If you want a sherpa to guide you through this and you don't have anyone in your immediate circle, the thing to ask for is a Buyer's Agent.

"Broker" triggers all sorts of opinions that aren't germane to the thing you're asking for.

I think a membership to the Cessna Pilots Association if you're not already would be money very well spent. I also think they'll be able to advise you without pizzing on one another, since you're walking in the door vetted as "one of their own" already, and they'll want to welcome you warmly into the fold.

http://www.cessna.org/

$0.02

- Mike
 
schmookeeg said:
If you want a sherpa to guide you through this and you don't have anyone in your immediate circle, the thing to ask for is a Buyer's Agent.
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This.

And I think what is tripping some of us up is not knowing what you want this hired gun to do.

For purchasing something like a Skylane, it may not be needed if your seller is a good one and working with you and you connect with a good inspector/mech like John Efinger. A well executed Buyer Agreement might take care of the details a buyer's agent would handle.

Now if you were purchasing something north of $500,000 and much more complicated, an agent like Wayne Bower is a definite must.
 
Randomly, the seller just emailed some cell phone photos of log books for the last few annuals, oil changes, and the engine overhaul entry. My airplane partner is an A&P and will be happy. Unfortunately, he won't be able to get to TX until next week. :(

Seller reports he has complete logs available and the engine logs are across two books. It's looking great. Looks like my wallet is going to be drained.

I guess CamGuard is good, he won't stop raving about how he adds it every time he does oil changes and oil filter changes....Every 15 hours!! He also has oil analysis reports available for every oil change for the last 15 years.

This airplane has been babied.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
Randomly, the seller just emailed some cell phone photos of log books for the last few annuals, oil changes, and the engine overhaul entry. My airplane partner is an A&P and will be happy. Unfortunately, he won't be able to get to TX until next week. :(

Seller reports he has complete logs available and the engine logs are across two books. It's looking great. Looks like my wallet is going to be drained.

I guess CamGuard is good, he won't stop raving about how he adds it every time he does oil changes and oil filter changes....Every 15 hours!! He also has oil analysis reports available for every oil change for the last 15 years.

This airplane has been babied.
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great, don't skip the corrosion inspection of door posts, spar carry-through, and other wing attachment points...look at the prop too...then there are the horizontal stabilizer spars (but the 182 isn't as bad there as the 172 is).
 
Clark1961 said:
great, don't skip the corrosion inspection of door posts, spar carry-through, and other wing attachment points...look at the prop too...then there are the horizontal stabilizer spars (but the 182 isn't as bad there as the 172 is).
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Thanks! I'll let my A&P buddy know to dbl check this. We can do the work in Cali, but would be interesting do this for a prebuy.

I think it be best to have an independent, non-invested shop do the pre-buy + annual in case something pops up. We want to keep everything on the up&up incase there are major sqawks - don't want the seller saying we are not being 100% truthful. Of course, my buddy wants to be involved with the pre-buy/annual.

I wish my buddy wasn't locked up in some conference thing all week with no email....<grumble>
 
Check the main gear saddle mounts (fixed gear). They can corrode and crack and are not easy to replace.
 
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