Pre-Solo Student Learning Plateau

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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I have a Pre-Solo student who is Plateauing at landings. His common mistakes are landing left of centerline, getting squirrely on short final, and always side-loading it to the left.

I've tried telling him to use more right rudder then he thinks he needs. Which fixed the side-loading for a few landings. I've told him to land on the right side of the runway. Which fixed the centerline issue for a while. But each item keeps coming back after a few landings.

Today I took him to an airport in a tight valley to work on crosswind landings. Well that ended up being a horrible idea because of the strong down slope crosswind. I even had to fight the plane down on a few of the landings.

I've used a narrower runway to see if that would help. He said it helped and he did improve but the mistakes are still there.

He is approaching 25 hours and basically the only thing holding him back is landing. I feel like I'm letting him down somewhere and I can't figure out where.
 
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25 hours isn't that much. Some people take longer. Sounds like you're trying the right things. Have you tried slow flying down the centering at about 3- 5 feet holding the centering and the flaring attitude?
 
What syllabus are you using? I believe syllabus have built-in plateaus. A learning plateau is artificial in nature. Go try something else. Seek correlation.
 
Let him ride with another instructor for one hop -- that often uncovers something the original instructor is missing.
 
Richard said:
What syllabus are you using? I believe syllabus have built-in plateaus. A learning plateau is artificial in nature. Go try something else. Seek correlation.
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It's a school 141 syllabus.

I've been calling the other instructors and most are busy. My boss said he would fly with him if everyone else was busy.
 
I'm curious to know what will finally work for your student, cuz I'm stuck in nearly the exact same situation when it comes to my landings. Right now, it's about the only thing keeping me from soloing.

I'm going to ask my CFI if the low pass over the centerline is something he thinks might work.
 
Ron Levy said:
Let him ride with another instructor for one hop -- that often uncovers something the original instructor is missing.
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:yeahthat: 100% agree. I'm a PP student and had exact same thing. Flew with another CFI for a hop when I had abt 25 hrs. I was ready to solo except for my landing. Couldn't keep center line and side loads due to lack of rudder control.

Two things the second CFI did: showed me more aggressive rudder and yoke control..What I now associate as 'positive aircraft control'. I was timid and thought I would break something. Perhaps he exaggerated, but he was very active with rudder and yoke controls to make the plane do exactly what he wanted. The second - much like slow flight. 'Aim the plane to keep touch down point from going up/down. Use throttle to control air speed.' I was using slight attitude and throttle adjustments incorrectly, making me unable to keep a straight flight path. So.... Aim for aiming point with yoke and rudder. If flaps are adjusted, always keep same attitude and aiming for landing spot, don't let flap pitch let me ballon (if I delayed flaps). Don't use attitude for speed control, but throttle for speed control. That's what I learned.

This CFI observed me do one pattern. He did one complete pattern. Telling me these things. I then did 3 perfect landings. Two days later, went with my CFI. Did 3 near perfect landings. Dropped him off and flew 2 perfect landings and one...not so perfect landing, but I'm alive.
 
Tats when my instructor would yell "RUDDER PEDALS... RUDDER!" As we're taking back off and he'd jam the right then left and right pedals in sequence. A good demonstration to use the pedals, you won't break the plane!

I didn't get confident with the ailerons until I did emergency decents, nor elevator control until I nailed stalls. I was usually too timid on the controls. I still need to get better at rudder in the flare. It's on my most-PP homework list.
 
pikespeakmtnman said:
I'm curious to know what will finally work for your student, cuz I'm stuck in nearly the exact same situation when it comes to my landings. Right now, it's about the only thing keeping me from soloing.

I'm going to ask my CFI if the low pass over the centerline is something he thinks might work.
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I would totally recommend that. I know it helped me when I was struggling. Good rudder control is one of the hardest things to master, we in tricycle gear planes don't give it the appreciation that it deserves.
 
on a longish final have him working the rudders back and forth....left rudder, right rudder, left, right, left right, as long as safely possible. maybe even have him call out as he's doing it...."nose left, nose center, nose right"....

early on in my training I thought to myself "well, I'm stepping on the rudder like 1/4", that should be good" but it wasn't until my CFI made me work the pedals back and forth that I realized sometimes you need to work the pedals all the way down. and seeing the nose go from "not correct" to lined up to "not correct" multiple times is when it started making sense to me.
 
eman1200 said:
on a longish final have him working the rudders back and forth....left rudder, right rudder, left, right, left right, as long as safely possible. maybe even have him call out as he's doing it...."nose left, nose center, nose right"....

early on in my training I thought to myself "well, I'm stepping on the rudder like 1/4", that should be good" but it wasn't until my CFI made me work the pedals back and forth that I realized sometimes you need to work the pedals all the way down. and seeing the nose go from "not correct" to lined up to "not correct" multiple times is when it started making sense to me.
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That helped me early on.

My runway is only 2600x40, with trees on both sides. Needless to say, at full flaps things get squirrely on short final going over the trees and there's very little room for error not hitting near the centerline.

So I learned fast that rudder control, often in both directions, all the way down is a must.
 
Geez, this is what I'm struggling with. I know my CFI wants to solo me, but my landings aren't good enough yet. I stop flying the airplane in the flare, and I'm doing the same thing others have mentioned of not using enough rudder and aileron inputs. I'm left of centerline as well because of insufficient right rudder with nose up in the flare. I'm determined to get it this next time up though.

Not sure if anyone has seen it, but Jason Schappert of mzeroa.com does a great video on YouTube about mastering landings. It's long, but a lot of it is Q&A at the end:

http://youtu.be/Eq7w9IbSpSI



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Learn how to land the airplane first, then worry about the centerline. Pre-solo, the centerline is a distraction, IMHO.

Mentally divide your body into two sections at the bellybutton. The bottom half's job is to keep the nose pointed directly down the runway; the upper half's job is to keep the plane from drifting laterally by the liberal use of aileron. I have run across students who were reluctant to use full travel on the yoke...that's a mistake. My paraplegic students learned to land, and they did not have to divide their bodies laterally.

Bob Gardner
 
My biggest problem was realizing what happens on final. Control input that we use in flight wont work on final. Remember we are slow, that 1/4 inch of yoke movement that had such an effect at 105 knots does very little at 65 knots. In flight a slight rudder movement and the planes reacts very quickly, theres a lot of wind passing over the control surfaces. At slow speeds it takes a lot more input. Slow flight was the key for me, I learned how the plane reacts, I flew all over the place at 70 knots. Its a mushy feeling but you learn fast to use the controls, they wont break.
 
bobmrg said:
Learn how to land the airplane first, then worry about the centerline. Pre-solo, the centerline is a distraction, IMHO.
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My CFI must agree with you...I've landed left and right (sometimes significantly so) of centerline and my instructor has never once made a big deal out of it. Sorta surprising even considering once I landed diagonally across the runway, though I was able to keep the plane out of the weeds. Oh yeah, I'm also pretty good at decisions to go around if the landing doesn't look like it's gonna work out.
 
pikespeakmtnman said:
My CFI must agree with you...I've landed left and right (sometimes significantly so) of centerline and my instructor has never once made a big deal out of it. Sorta surprising even considering once I landed diagonally across the runway, though I was able to keep the plane out of the weeds. Oh yeah, I'm also pretty good at decisions to go around if the landing doesn't look like it's gonna work out.
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Yeah, my instructor didn't make a big deal out of the centerline until post-solo. Then I'd start getting comments like: "Gee, what's this big white line on the runway I can see out my window?" :p :)
 
Timmer said:
Yeah, my instructor didn't make a big deal out of the centerline until post-solo. Then I'd start getting comments like: "Gee, what's this big white line on the runway I can see out my window?" :p :)
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Well I can't pass this lesson until he can maintain centerline. Some of the lesson completion standards are as followed:

Maintains Centerline at all times
No side loading of the aircraft
Establishes and maintains a stable approach to touchdown
Student will land within 400' of landing point
Nose wheel will not touch until aircraft runs out of airspeed and elevator control

So according to the syllabus I cannot give a passing grade
 
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Looking back, even after soloing my rudder input on landing was inadequate. My instructor would demonstrate positive control of the aircraft but I continued to let the airplane fly me and was landing with ailerons. It took a while after that to realize that the rudder can be STEPPED ON.

Best thing you can do, in my opinion, and as suggested above, is have him swing the nose back and forth on a long final to "get the feel".
 
ARFlyer said:
Well I can't pass this lesson until he can maintain centerline. Some of the lesson completion standards are as followed:

Maintains Centerline at all times
No side loading of the aircraft
Establishes and maintains a stable approach to touchdown
Student will land within 400' of landing point
Nose wheel will not touch until aircraft runs out of airspeed and elevator control

So according to the syllabus I cannot give a passing grade
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Landing on the centerline is a requirement for PRIVATE PILOTS, not pre-solo students. You have a flaky syllabus.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Landing on the centerline is a requirement for PRIVATE PILOTS, not pre-solo students. You have a flaky syllabus.

Bob Gardner
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Good God, that thing reads like the PTS!

I'm glad I didn't have to learn with that syllabus.

Don't 141 syllabi have to get approved by the FAA? Was someone asleep at the helm?
 
MAKG1 said:
Good God, that thing reads like the PTS!

I'm glad I didn't have to learn with that syllabus.

Don't 141 syllabi have to get approved by the FAA? Was someone asleep at the helm?
Click to expand...

Good God, do you have no life? Get away from the keyboard, go and have a weekend. Have a life for God's sake!

;)
 
Take him to a long runway, the longer the better.

Fly final down to the flare, and go the length of the runway at flare height. Lots of time to practice alignment with the runway, and to correct right for the centerline. Power up in time to clear whatever is at the end and try it all again, no need to actually land.

With a nice 7000+ foot runway, shouldn't take more than two or three times to get things straight in his head. Then land.
 
ARFlyer said:
I have a Pre-Solo student who is Plateauing at landings. His common mistakes are landing left of centerline, getting squirrely on short final, and always side-loading it to the left.

I've tried telling him to use more right rudder then he thinks he needs. Which fixed the side-loading for a few landings. I've told him to land on the right side of the runway. Which fixed the centerline issue for a while. But each item keeps coming back after a few landings.

Today I took him to an airport in a tight valley to work on crosswind landings. Well that ended up being a horrible idea because of the strong down slope crosswind. I even had to fight the plane down on a few of the landings.

I've used a narrower runway to see if that would help. He said it helped and he did improve but the mistakes are still there.

He is approaching 25 hours and basically the only thing holding him back is landing. I feel like I'm letting him down somewhere and I can't figure out where.
Click to expand...

Is he afraid to use the flight controls close to the ground? Is he center prior to the flare? Is the long axis aligned at round out? You might try having him fly down the runway and make him demonstrate flying the plane left and right with aileron and around the vert axis with rudder in grond effect with power.
 
The thing about the centerline is that it is a reference line for the beginner. You can "aim" the nose with the rudder more accurately than just "looking down the runway". Like aiming a rifle by looking straight down the barrel at the target . After you can hit the target that way, you can try shooting from the hip and other positions.
Straddle the centerline - like if you were landing on your feet, your left foot would be on the left side of centerline and your right foot would be right of centerline, and fly it all the way to the ground riding that centerline.
It's not about the actually landing on the centerline, but about developing absolute heading control - with rudder.
 
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