Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would you

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Kind of a generic question, but curious about how one would best mitigate this.

As the thread title implies, say you are looking at an airplane with an engine that was overhauled 17 years ago. Had 75-100 hrs per year the first 7 years and then sat in a hangar in Arizona only flying 50 hrs over the next 9 years.

What would you do?

Run like crazy?

Borescope?

Pull a cylinder?

Try to buy it at a reduced cost and be prepared to overhaul shortly after?

If it make a difference, the engine in question is a P&W R-985,so it's not like there are 50 other similar models for sale at any given time.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Me?....I'd borescope the cylinders and check out the cylinder walls and valves. If those were corrosion free....I'd then move to the crank case and borescope that. If the cam followers looked good and crank looked good.....it could be in great shape.

Running away would not be my first move. Inspection, yes. :yes:
 
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Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

I would start by having the motor bore scoped,would also try to buy at a lower cost,since engine may need work.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

If it runs well, passes a filter inspection, and has good compression, just price it as a run-out engine.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

I'd bore scope any engine on pre-buy. They can scope through the oil filler port too and, in the case of my pre-buy, got a good look at some spalling cams.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Just have a good prebuy done, could be a great plane, could be a turd, who knows.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Account for an overhaul in the price of the purchase...
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

zwaustin said:
Account for an overhaul in the price of the purchase...
Click to expand...

Why?

When you buy a plane with 10hrs SMOH do you factor a overhaul into the price? More likley to go TU
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Fearless Tower said:
Kind of a generic question, but curious about how one would best mitigate this.

As the thread title implies, say you are looking at an airplane with an engine that was overhauled 17 years ago. Had 75-100 hrs per year the first 7 years and then sat in a hangar in Arizona only flying 50 hrs over the next 9 years.

What would you do?

Run like crazy?

Borescope?

Pull a cylinder?

Try to buy it at a reduced cost and be prepared to overhaul shortly after?

If it make a difference, the engine in question is a P&W R-985,so it's not like there are 50 other similar models for sale at any given time.
Click to expand...

P&W 985??? YGTBSM, get in it, start it up, go fly.

Beaver ?
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

petrolero said:
I'd bore scope any engine on pre-buy. They can scope through the oil filler port too and, in the case of my pre-buy, got a good look at some spalling cams.
Click to expand...

985s don't have a cam.

The oil filler cap is on the oil tank. You won't see anything but black oil, if empty you might see all the sludge at the bottom.
 
Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Tom-D said:
P&W 985??? YGTBSM, get in it, start it up, go fly.



Beaver ?
Click to expand...

Are 985s that bullet proof? My limited radial ownership experience is limited to the Continental 670.

Airplane in question is actually a Beech 18, so there are technically two of 'em.

I'm still just a tire kicker right now (wife not onboard yet), but there is one on the market that sounds good, aside from this low utilization data point. Problem with the type is that the low utilization is a common theme.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Do a very careful prebuy including compression and leak down test, boroscope, oil analysis and make sure the landing gear is ok as well as no corrosion.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Here's my tale of woe. In my Citabria rebuild project, I found that the original O-235-C1 was essentially worthless, zero value as a core. I went shopping via trade-a-plane, and found an O-320 that was advertised as 100 hours or so SMOH, signed off as airworthy by the A&P who was selling it. BUT... it had been sitting idle in upstate NY for years.

So I paid cash for it, and it was shipped to me in TX. WITHOUT me having it inspected. Stoooooopid me.

Summary - bucket o' bolts. The magic 100SMOH meant nothing. There was corrosion everywhere. My $6,500 engine became a $25,000 engine after another MOH.

I would NEVER, EVER do anything like this again without having the engine thoroughly inspected first by a competent mechanic, to include pulling at least one cylinder, along with other standard inspections. Got to pull a jug, see what's going on in there.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Fearless Tower said:
Are 985s that bullet proof? My limited radial ownership experience is limited to the Continental 670.

Airplane in question is actually a Beech 18, so there are technically two of 'em.

I'm still just a tire kicker right now (wife not onboard yet), but there is one on the market that sounds good, aside from this low utilization data point. Problem with the type is that the low utilization is a common theme.
Click to expand...

Be aware the 18 has a huge AD on the wing Spar.
Do the 985s have pre-oilers? Dry Kits?
The 18 is a great old A/C, but they are thirsty.
Is it a prior Military? TC45? or a true 18?
 
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Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Tom-D said:
Be aware the 18 has a huge AD on the wing Spar.
Do the 985s have pre-oilers? Dry Kits?
The 18 is a great old A/C, but they are thirsty.
Is it a prior Military? TC45? or a true 18?
Click to expand...
A/C in question is a G18S. Never a freighter. Don't know about pre-oilers. Wing spar AD is recent.

My biggest obstacle turns out to be my wife - she actually told me she thought the Twin Beech was ugly compared to our Baron:mad2:
I was in disbelief. I almost shed a tear. She did agree to go look at the interior of a nearby one before passing final judgment.

We shall see....
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Fearless Tower said:
A/C in question is a G18S. Never a freighter. Don't know about pre-oilers. Wing spar AD is recent.

My biggest obstacle turns out to be my wife - she actually told me she thought the Twin Beech was ugly compared to our Baron:mad2:
I was in disbelief. I almost shed a tear. She did agree to go look at the interior of a nearby one before passing final judgment.

We shall see....
Click to expand...

Ask her if the Baron will go on Floats. :)
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Fearless Tower said:
A/C in question is a G18S. Never a freighter. Don't know about pre-oilers. Wing spar AD is recent.
Click to expand...

When was the flight controls last covered and with what?
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Fearless Tower said:
My biggest obstacle turns out to be my wife - she actually told me she thought the Twin Beech was ugly compared to our Baron:mad2:
Click to expand...

Dreams... slipping away
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

I'm told that e plating on the crankshaft bearings tends to flake off as a result of time and disuse...the guy even gave me a document on it, but I have no idea what I did with it.

Anybody else heard of that?
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Tom-D said:
When was the flight controls last covered and with what?
Click to expand...
Don't know, but not too long ago. Airplane has been hangared in the southwest (CO then AZ) since restoration (90's I think). I spoke with a type expert who knows the airplane and the guy who did the resto. He said it's a good one....not sure if I can get my wife turned around in time though. We shall see. Wife is more important than the airplane.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

dell30rb said:
Dreams... slipping away
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've dreamed of a Twin Beech since I was a student pilot.

Finally have the experience for the insurance and can afford to operate one and now the surprise road block. Oh well, my wife makes me happier in the long run than the airplane would.

BUT, I would look pretty cool in Twin Beech.

It's a First World problem to be sure.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Tom-D said:
985s don't have a cam.

The oil filler cap is on the oil tank. You won't see anything but black oil, if empty you might see all the sludge at the bottom.
Click to expand...

An O-540 has a cam. :dunno:

Either way. Bore scope it.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Fearless Tower said:
But the engine in question is an R-985.
Click to expand...

I get that. I was describing my experience with my engine to illustrate the benefit of a bore scope.

I know nothing about a 985 but I know that if it has pistons a bore scope is a good idear.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

Tom-D said:
985s don't have a cam.

The oil filler cap is on the oil tank. You won't see anything but black oil, if empty you might see all the sludge at the bottom.
Click to expand...

I'm no mechanic, but then what exactly do you call that big eccentric valve actuator on the front? I could see saying it doesnt have a camshaft, but to my layman's eye, two rotating eccentrics, mechanically indexed to crank movement, and charged with activating intake and exhaust valves could certainly be called a cam and could present the same problems as the wear surfaces on non-radial cam. Regardless of what it is called, having a peek before purchase seems prudent.
 

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Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

cam follower.....
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

80 g.p.h. to look cool and fly slow?

No thanks.

Do love that sound though ....
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

Fearless Tower said:
A/C in question is a G18S. Never a freighter. Don't know about pre-oilers. Wing spar AD is recent.

My biggest obstacle turns out to be my wife - she actually told me she thought the Twin Beech was ugly compared to our Baron:mad2:
I was in disbelief. I almost shed a tear. She did agree to go look at the interior of a nearby one before passing final judgment.

We shall see....
Click to expand...

How can your wife not be on board? Get her a couple of pieces of that super-retro Rimowa luggage, put her in classy garb, and watch her get treated like royalty on the ramp.

One idea to help get your wife on board would be to attend the Beech Party at Tullahoma TN in about three weeks. She might catch the fever there. It is a very well run event and the Beechcraft museum is gorgeous.

Oh, and is the expert you've talked with Taigh Raimey? He seems to be one of the go-to guys for twin Beeches.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

gasfiltered said:
I'm no mechanic, but then what exactly do you call that big eccentric valve actuator on the front? I could see saying it doesnt have a camshaft, but to my layman's eye, two rotating eccentrics, mechanically indexed to crank movement, and charged with activating intake and exhaust valves could certainly be called a cam and could present the same problems as the wear surfaces on non-radial cam. Regardless of what it is called, having a peek before purchase seems prudent.
Click to expand...
I call that a "ring" not a shaft. As you referred to it in your first post. and most do not look like your cartoon picture.
 
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Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

txflyer said:
80 g.p.h. to look cool and fly slow? ....
Click to expand...


I was wondering why all examples of the type had low utilization. Now I know.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

NoHeat said:
I was wondering why all examples of the type had low utilization. Now I know.
Click to expand...
Except that number is wrong.

Like R&W posted, most operators these days are running 150-160 KTAS at 40-45gph. Still higher burn than other cabin twins like a 340, but you get a heck of a lot more cabin space and useful load for that.

A 340 is downright cramped compared to a Beech 18. You can literally stand up and walk down the aisle in a Twin Beech.
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

RotorAndWing said:
I owned a '64 BE-18H. Cruise was 165-170 knots and 45gph.
Click to expand...
That's pretty good speed for an 18. Were the nose-gears faster? You didn't have boots, right?
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what would

I'd better be able to stand up for that 50 gph. :D
 
Re: Pre-buy question: 17 years SMOH and very low utilization last 9 yeas...what w...

kyleb said:
How can your wife not be on board? Get her a couple of pieces of that super-retro Rimowa luggage, put her in classy garb, and watch her get treated like royalty on the ramp.

One idea to help get your wife on board would be to attend the Beech Party at Tullahoma TN in about three weeks. She might catch the fever there. It is a very well run event and the Beechcraft museum is gorgeous.

Oh, and is the expert you've talked with Taigh Raimey? He seems to be one of the go-to guys for twin Beeches.
Click to expand...
Well, she really wasn't.....until she went and got to sit inside of one today that is kept at the Fighter Factory's hangar at Suffolk!

She saw its merits, although she is very set on having a painted one (she actually doesn't like the polished aluminum look and in all fairness, polished aluminum would be a real pain where we live) and she hated the upholstery of the one I had been eying, which is unfortunately a recent restoration/in good shape. So I think we will be letting this one go (I can't offer enough to have money to paint and re-do the interior), but the good news is, I got the go ahead to keep looking.

And yes, I have indeed been talking to Taigh. He's a straight shooter.
 
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