PPL-IA right seat.

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
A PPL-IA flying right seat with a student?

the bad and the good?

Nice VFR day, low winds, moving the aircraft from one airport to another for MX.
 
How comfortable is the PPL with flying from the right seat?

As long as the PPL is comfortable flying the airplane from the right side and there is no special insurance stipulation that the PIC must occupy the left seat, I say go for it.

Down side is that the student can't log the time, but it can be a good chance for them to get more experience.

Other downside depends on the risk tolerance. If you let the student land the plane and they botch it, you had better be willing to accept the responsibily.
 
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Sounds like the first link in the accident chain.

There is so much more to flying from the right seat than the average PPL-IA would understand with no training. If they have done that training and are 100% comfortable with it...then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Otherwise, I would begin with what I find to be a valuable question. "What would I think about this decision if I were to read about it in an NTSB report?"
 
FlyNE said:
Sounds like the first link in the accident chain.

There is so much more to flying from the right seat than the average PPL-IA would understand with no training. If they have done that training and are 100% comfortable with it...then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Otherwise, I would begin with what I find to be a valuable question. "What would I think about this decision if I were to read about it in an NTSB report?"
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Yes. Unless the right seat pilot is proficient in the right seat (by which I mean he can meet PTS in that seat for his certificate) then he shouldn't be flying in the right seat without a rated and proficient pilot in the left seat.

I'd hate to have tried to learn to fly right seat by myself. I "soloed" right seat a lot faster than I did left, but it still took some dual and some "saves" by my CFI.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'd hate to have tried to learn to fly right seat by myself. I "soloed" right seat a lot faster than I did left, but it still took some dual and some "saves" by my CFI.
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Really depends on what your background is.

I flew right seat as a kid with my dad for years before I actually started taking official flying lessons, plus I had time in tandem planes with stick in the right hand and throttle on the left, so flying from the right seat was rather natural for me. IFR from the right seat was a bit more challenging, however.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Really depends on what your background is.

I flew right seat as a kid with my dad for years before I actually started taking official flying lessons, plus I had time in tandem planes with stick in the right hand and throttle on the left, so flying from the right seat was rather natural for me. IFR from the right seat was a bit more challenging, however.
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Then, as I said, you'd already HAD the instruction on flying from the right, no?
 
Fearless Tower said:
How comfortable is the PPL with flying from the right seat?

As long as the PPL is comfortable flying the airplane from the right side and there is no special insurance stipulation that the PIC must occupy the left seat, or that excludes use of the airplane for training (which the insurance company might logically allege in case of accident, otherwise why was he seated there?) I say go for it.

Down side is that the student can't log the time, but it can be a good chance for them to get more experience.

Other downside depends on the risk tolerance. If you let the student land the plane and they botch it, you had better be willing to accept the responsibily.
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My insurance policy is very specific about such stuff.
 
It's going to look an awful lot like either the student pilot is flying with a passenger or the private pilot is acting as a CFI. Of course those things usually only end up being a problem when something goes wrong.

As far as insurance, if either pilot has a non-owned aricraft policy, it'd be wise to read the terms and exclusions carefully. I'm pretty sure this is againt the typical terms in such policies (regardless of whether it is the private or student pilot with the policy).
 
FlyNE said:
Sounds like the first link in the accident chain.

There is so much more to flying from the right seat than the average PPL-IA would understand with no training. If they have done that training and are 100% comfortable with it...then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Otherwise, I would begin with what I find to be a valuable question. "What would I think about this decision if I were to read about it in an NTSB report?"
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Sounds like the first post in overreacting. Prior to training for my commercial and cfi I flew right seat with a student pilot and it was a non issue.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like the first post in overreacting. Prior to training for my commercial and cfi I flew right seat with a student pilot and it was a non issue.
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That's because you're the world's second greatest pilot.

The question was about the average pp-ia. I know from having talked to a lot of CFIs (as do you from being one) that the average pilot flying on a BFR can barely fly to PTS standards from the left seat.

Just like anything, the answer is "it depends". I didn't say that it should never be done. It depends on whether or not the pp had ever flown from the right seat and how far along the student was in their training.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like the first post in overreacting. Prior to training for my commercial and cfi I flew right seat with a student pilot and it was a non issue.
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It was today to........

the young Lady is ready for the Practical, we did some turns around a point, 360s to the left and right, some VOR tracking and a couple stalls, she hit the numbers every time.

She's ready and now so is the aircraft.

Some of you guys must worry about falling out of bed every morning. :)
 
I flew from the right seat once, with an instructor friend in left seat. It was definitely a new experience and definitely took some getting used to. That said, its worth trying, with an instructor in the left seat until you're used to it.

I'm not sure I feel comfortable flying right seat solo just yet, but, if i HAD to, i think I would be OK.
 
Been doing most of my flying from the right seat lately. Working on my commercial and getting the experience for my CFI rating all in one. I won't fly right seat solo in a Warrior though because I have a hard time reaching over to the fuel selector.
 
Tom-D said:
It was today to........

the young Lady is ready for the Practical, we did some turns around a point, 360s to the left and right, some VOR tracking and a couple stalls, she hit the numbers every time.

She's ready and now so is the aircraft.

Some of you guys must worry about falling out of bed every morning. :)
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If falling out of bed could kill me or wreck a $100,000.00 asset, I would!:)
 
Well, your post and Tom's pretty much tell me everything I need to know.

EdFred said:
Sounds like the first post in overreacting. Prior to training for my commercial and cfi I flew right seat with a student pilot and it was a non issue.
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Tom-D said:
Why do you need to know anything?

It ain't that difficult.
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Didn't say it was. I just figured it must be OK, since if you two can do it, anybody should be able to do it. :rofl:
 
TMetzinger said:
Then, as I said, you'd already HAD the instruction on flying from the right, no?
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Depends on the definition of instruction....my dad was never a CFI and I wasn't actually landing the plane when I was a kid. Mostly just got the feel for the controls from that side over a several year period.

Now, I wouldn't recommend that someone just go and solo a plane from the right side without at least a 'safety pilot' the first time. First time I actually took off and landed a plane from the right seat was a Turbo Lance with my dad in the left seat.

Nowadays, I fly solo from the right seat 75% of the time.
 
and, ya'know, if you are up there flying solo from the right seat and it's not comfortable for landing say then all you have to do is take off the seat belt and schooch over to the left side... I've done that before when I needed to adjust the height of my seat - I just hopped over to the rt side, adjusted the seat and then hopped back and it worked OK.
But, this was if you were flying w/ a student in the left side - well, that's different and like everybody else said : it depends
 
FlyNE said:
For what purpose? Did you expect it to impact your decision? Or were you just looking to cause a ruckus when you did it anyway?
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I'll do what I have always done, base my decisions upon what I know to be true at the time, that has kept me safe for 56 years of flying.

but some times I like to see what others think.

and some times I simply like yanking your chain.

you decide which it was this time.
 
Tom-D said:
I'll do what I have always done, base my decisions upon what I know to be true at the time, that has kept me safe for 56 years of flying.

but some times I like to see what others think.

and some times I simply like yanking your chain.

you decide which it was this time.
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Trolling is against the Rules of Conduct.
 
Tom-D said:
Who says that was trolling?
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Yeah, I'm just guessing that the seat specific certificate crowd will be coming out of the woodwork 'bout now.

Thirty years ago this question woulda been a non-starter.
 
Bobcat1 said:
Yeah, I'm just guessing that the seat specific certificate crowd will be coming out of the woodwork 'bout now.

Thirty years ago this question woulda been a non-starter.
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Minds are changing with the times, us old guys might want to know how the new error thinkers are rationalizing the method of their thinking.
 
Thirty years ago the insurance policies were written much differently.

Bobcat1 said:
Yeah, I'm just guessing that the seat specific certificate crowd will be coming out of the woodwork 'bout now.

Thirty years ago this question woulda been a non-starter.
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wabower said:
Thirty years ago the insurance policies were written much differently.
Click to expand...

30 years ago? can you actually remember that far back?

all the manufacturers of high horse power radial engines and did all the testing called it "BMEP" now the new error thinkers call it Internal cylinder pressures, and swear it is different.
 
FlyNE said:
Sounds like the first link in the accident chain.

There is so much more to flying from the right seat than the average PPL-IA would understand with no training. If they have done that training and are 100% comfortable with it...then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Otherwise, I would begin with what I find to be a valuable question. "What would I think about this decision if I were to read about it in an NTSB report?"
Click to expand...

If you've gotten experience and flown/landed from the right it's a non issue. As someone else said, be able to perform PTS from right seat before putting someone who can't meet PTS in the left.
 
Doggtyred said:
If you've gotten experience and flown/landed from the right it's a non issue. As someone else said, be able to perform PTS from right seat before putting someone who can't meet PTS in the left.
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I agree. Isn't that pretty much exactly what I said?
 
Not only can I remember, the memory remains vivid. Yours would too, if you had used the proceeds from the policy to pay off the bank after your partner was killed in your airplane.

As part of the consulting business, I usually review more than a dozen policies each year. From the standpoint of pilots and owners, some changes are good, some aren't. Many policies are now written in plain language, vs. the legalese of the past, and are much easier to understand. Geographical coverage boundaries (no coverage in Alaska) are more-often included. Limitations on hail damage (max payout defined as percentage of hull coverage) are becoming more common.

Claims adjusters are becoming much more inquisitive about examination of all logs and records ertaining to the airplane. For example, does ownership as shown on the application for the policy match up to the ownership per FAA registry? If no, why not? The company's position is that they agreed to insure the owner as shown on the policy. If the owner is different, they are likely to ask why they are liable for the claim. This is true even for ground claims, as we learned after the BKD tornado.

Some carriers now include additional clarifications and conditions at the end of the application that the pilot is required to initial prior to acceptance. One of them is a specific statement regarding who can legally fly the airplane. Some will tell you that they are entitled to assume that the plane was being flown by the person that was in the seat normally occupied by the pilot, and they know all about the FAR bullshlt about the PIC sitting in some other seat.

They'll also tell you that if you want to introduce FAR's into your discussion about a claim, you need to go talk to the FAA and see if they will pay it. The bottom line is that the insurance companies have gotten smarter and have taken steps to limit their losses by increasing pilot awareness of the specific terms of coverage. I don't see any significant difference in fairness or unwillingness to pay legitimate claims, but there's no question that they have "tightened things up."

When owners or pilots ask me about goofy stuff like flying in the right seat with a student in the left, my first question is whether the approved usage includes training, and if the PIC is qualified to provide it. If so, good to go.

I also tell them I don't know for sure how an accident claim would be handled by their carrier, but I don't see any reason to waste money paying the premium if they intend to ignore the provisions of the coverage. If they think the reward outweighs the risk (assuming they're thinking at all, which most aren't) then by all means they should proceed as planned.

I also tell them that one of my greatest frustations is that I can't let most pilots fly in the left seat of my plane, even though I'm qualified to instruct in it, and expect the insurance company to pay an accident claim. They have made it abundantly clear to me that it ain't gonna happen. As a result, anybody who's not named on the policy or doesn't meet the open warranty (a copy of which is kept in the airplane) is limited to right-seat flying.

Tom-D said:
30 years ago? can you actually remember that far back?

all the manufacturers of high horse power radial engines and did all the testing called it "BMEP" now the new error thinkers call it Internal cylinder pressures, and swear it is different.
Click to expand...
 
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wabower said:
Not only can I remember, the memory remains vivid. Yours would too, if you had used the proceeds from the policy to pay off the bank after your partner was killed in your airplane.

As part of the consulting business, I will usually review more than a dozen policies each year. From the standpoint of pilots and owners, some changes are good, some aren't. Many policies are now written in plain language, vs. the legalese of the past, and are much easier to understand. Geographical coverage boundaries (no coverage in Alaska) are more-often included. Limitations on hail damage (max stated as percentage of hull coverage) are becoming more common.

Claims adjusters are becoming much more inquisitive about examination of all logs and records ertaining to the airplane. For example, does ownership as shown on the application for the policy match up to the ownership per FAA registry? If no, why not? The company's position is that they agreed to insure the owner as shown on the policy. If the owner is different, they are likely to ask why they are liable for the claim. This is true even for ground claims, as we learned after the BKD tornado.

Some carriers now include additional clarifications and conditions at the end of the application that the pilot is required to initial prior to acceptance. One of them is a specific statement regarding who can legally fly the airplane. Some will tell you that they are entitled to assume that the plane was being flown by the person that was in the seat normally occupied by the pilot, and they know all about the FAR bullshlt about the PIC sitting in some other seat.

They'll also tell you that if you want to introduce FAR's into your discussion about a claim, you need to go talk to the FAA and see if they will pay it. The bottom line is that the insurance companies have gotten smarter and have taken steps to limit their losses by increasing pilot awareness of the specific terms of coverage. I don't see any significant difference in fairness or unwillingness to pay legitimate claims, but there's no question that they have "tightened things up."

When owners ask me about goofy stuff like flying in the right seat with a student in the left, I just tell them I don't know for sure how an accident claim would be handled by their carrier, but I don't see any reason to waste money paying the premium if they intend to ignore the provisions of the coverage. If they think the reward outweighs the risk (assuming they're thinking at all, which most aren't) then by all means they should proceed as planned.
Click to expand...

Insurance industry is but one area that people change the way they think, and the terms they use to get their point across.

That doesn't mean the laws of physics changed.
 
Tom-D said:
Insurance industry is but one area that people change the way they think, and the terms they use to get their point across.

That doesn't mean the laws of physics changed.
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Your original question was to ask how we felt. It wasn't whether or not we believed the plane would fly.
 
wabower said:
When owners or pilots ask me about goofy stuff like flying in the right seat with a student in the left, my first question is whether the approved usage includes training, and if the PIC is qualified to provide it. If so, good to go....

I also tell them that one of my greatest frustations is that I can't let most pilots fly in the left seat of my plane, even though I'm qualified to instruct in it, and expect the insurance company to pay an accident claim. They have made it abundantly clear to me that it ain't gonna happen. As a result, anybody who's not named on the policy or doesn't meet the open warranty (a copy of which is kept in the airplane) is limited to right-seat flying.
Click to expand...

I've had the same problem. I've had insurance companies tell me that although I'd be covered getting my wife her tailwheel endorsement in any airplane that I'd buy, I wouldn't be covered giving any dual to my unlicensed son. If I have to pay extra for that coverage, I will.

Like you state. If you're intending to get coverage, make it appropriate for your operation.
 
FlyNE said:
Your original question was to ask how we felt. It wasn't whether or not we believed the plane would fly.
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There is a lot of thread creep on the blue page......
 
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