Power add-on to glider rating

[Groundpounder]

I have a friend who started his flight training, then had to quit due to a lack of money. I told him he should look into getting his glider PPL, due to the cost savings, and having a school about 20 min from his house. He'd like to get his powered rating at some point. So my question is, will a glider rating help shorten the time it takes to get a power rating? Obviously it will help with stick and rudder skills, but will the required hours be reduced at all?

Thanks

 

[Sac Arrow]

I suppose engine out training could be eliminated. (But I kind of doubt it, significantly.)

 

[poadeleted20]

The glider training will shorten the number of powered plane hours needed, but the total number of flight hours will be higher. Of course, he'll have two ratings at that point, so you do get something for that.

By the book, you can get your glider rating with as little as 10 hours of glider time. I'm not that familiar with glider training, but I'm guessing most people have something more than that when they get that rating. Nevertheless, let's figure you have the PP-G and 11 hours of glider time (10 hours to be eligible plus an hour for the practical test). To add the ASEL rating, you'll need a total of 40 hours of flight time, so that means another 30 hours minimum in an airplane. The minimum dual time would be 20 hours minus whatever dual you get in the glider, and you'll need at least 10 hours of solo in airplanes. Typically, folks take about 55-60 hours total for zero-to-PP-ASEL, and the extra time is almost always all dual, so you can figure a bit more than the minimum, but the glider experience should help that some.

 

[ClimbnSink]

It is not as cheap and easy as going the other way. Tell your friend to at least give it a try, if he doesn't like soaring it is a waste of time, nevermind any money saved. If he likes soaring then it is all good.

 

[Groundpounder]

I'm trying to sell him on the glider rating not as a way to save money on his power rating, but as a cheaper alternative to getting his power rating. I figured I'd tell him it could save him some money if he decides to get his power rating, just as an added benefit.

 

[ClimbnSink]

That is a good plan and true. What glider club does he live near?

I'm trying to sell him on the glider rating not as a way to save money on his power rating, but as a cheaper alternative to getting his power rating. I figured I'd tell him it could save him some money if he decides to get his power rating, just as an added benefit.

 

[Groundpounder]

Bermuda High Soaring in Lancaster SC. He lives in Waxhaw NC, and is a controller at CLT. He started working on his light sport, but then the sequester hit, and he stopped flying due to the uncertainty of the future.

 

[rrmkru]

I'm thinking about going to bermuda high for a glider add-on. If your friend ends up doing some training there I'd like to hear about how it went.

 

[Groundpounder]

Will do.

 

[Seanaldinho]

Im in this situation right now.

Got my glider rating at 16 and I will be ready for my SEL checkride after the long XC (darn weather).

I found it didnt take long to get comfy in a powered plane (less than 10 hours). New sight picture and lots more gadgets to mess with but a plane still flies the same. Engine outs are a breeze (go figure). So yes there are some advantages to it but if hes not going to use the glider rating I wouldnt bother (It is a very good training experience however). Or he could fall in love with soaring like I did.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I'm trying to sell him on the glider rating not as a way to save money on his power rating, but as a cheaper alternative to getting his power rating. I figured I'd tell him it could save him some money if he decides to get his power rating, just as an added benefit.

If the ultimate goal is private pilot, airplane, then based on my personal experience it is cheaper to first do airplane, then glider. The regs tend to be airplane-centric with respect to ratings.

One other minor gotcha - getting a glider rating followed by airplane requires taking two knowledge (written) tests. Getting an airplane rating followed by glider requires taking only one written test.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Never flown there but Bermuda High has a good reputation. Send him there and see how it goes. He may never want to fly power.

 

[BillTIZ]

Carefully look at the "Airplane" flight time required for a powered PP certificate Vs. the glider requirements.

Some flight time requirements specify "in an airplane" other areas are "aircraft". I'd have to look closely again, but I think only about 5hrs of glider time will apply to the airplane rating.

But his glider experience should get him through the airplane qualification in minimum hours for the "air sense" he already holds.

 

[David Soom]

There is NO better flight time than glider time. The skills make you a much better power pilot. Ask the cadets at the U.S. Air Forice Academy. Ask Captian Shully.

 

[poadeleted20]

Carefully look at the "Airplane" flight time required for a powered PP certificate Vs. the glider requirements.

Some flight time requirements specify "in an airplane" other areas are "aircraft". I'd have to look closely again, but I think only about 5hrs of glider time will apply to the airplane rating.

Can you point out which part of 61.109(a) you think says that, because I can't see it.

But his glider experience should get him through the airplane qualification in minimum hours for the "air sense" he already holds.

I don't see how 10 hours of glider time will help you get through PP-ASEL in only 30 more hours of flying, but I have no experience in that area.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I don't see how 10 hours of glider time will help you get through PP-ASEL in only 30 more hours of flying, but I have no experience in that area.

You need to give it a try. Expand your horizons. Open your mind man.

 

[Pappy]

Here's my take, as I went the glider -> ASEL route.

-The reverse (ASEL -> glider) is definitely the easier path when it comes to the mechanics of earning a rating. One Knowledge test, more content to learn, etc. The glider rating usually comes pretty quickly to those power pilots who actually know how to use a rudder.

-For pure stick and rudder skills, (i.e. learning to fly) gliders are about the most inefficient route. A sled ride in a glider does not give you what you need to be truly successful. That said, a 172 can teach you some bad habits if you have a flight instructor that also has those bad habits...and there are a lot of them! Find someone with a tailwheel airplane and a CFI that knows how to fly it and start there...

-What I didn't realize until after I got my glider rating, is that not having your own glider really hinders your ability to fly...even if you belong to a club. Depending on your location, you are limited to certain soaring months, limited soarable days within that month, and limited days your calendar can accommodate, so you won't be able to fly when you want if you don't own your own ship. Good news is that they are "relatively" inexpensive and very easy to maintain.

-You really have to love soaring. If you don't REALLY love it, you're not going to stay with it. Dragging a trailer around, assembling your glider, flying for a few hours, landing (possibly in a field), disassembling, etc. all in the summer heat has to be a labor of love. (It's totally worth it in my book).

-Bermuda High is a great place. Frank and Jane run a great operation and everyone I've spoken to there are really great people.

Good luck! I'm happy to answer any questions, since this is near and dear to my heart...just shoot me a PM.

 

[Pappy]

By the book, you can get your glider rating with as little as 10 hours of glider time. I'm not that familiar with glider training, but I'm guessing most people have something more than that when they get that rating. Nevertheless, let's figure you have the PP-G and 11 hours of glider time (10 hours to be eligible plus an hour for the practical test). To add the ASEL rating, you'll need a total of 40 hours of flight time, so that means another 30 hours minimum in an airplane. The minimum dual time would be 20 hours minus whatever dual you get in the glider, and you'll need at least 10 hours of solo in airplanes. Typically, folks take about 55-60 hours total for zero-to-PP-ASEL, and the extra time is almost always all dual, so you can figure a bit more than the minimum, but the glider experience should help that some.

For some context, here is what it took for me going the glider -> ASEL route. I'm a weekend warrior and did it over the course of two years to finish both...with various delays. I'm certain it can be done faster if I had flown more often and without any large gaps.

When I took my PP-Glider Checkride - 44 flights (hours aren't really important for glider flying, but I had 17.5 hours). I also had 21 flights in a J3 Cub totaling 17.75 hours.

When I took my PP-ASEL Checkride - 72.6 Hours including the 17.75 J3 time (so really an extra ~55 hours)

 

[Bill Watson]

Here's my take, as I went the glider -> ASEL route.

I did too and never looked back... but as you say, it's not for everyone.

-The reverse (ASEL -> glider) is definitely the easier path when it comes to the mechanics of earning a rating. One Knowledge test, more content to learn, etc. The glider rating usually comes pretty quickly to those power pilots who actually know how to use a rudder.

-For pure stick and rudder skills, (i.e. learning to fly) gliders are about the most inefficient route. A sled ride in a glider does not give you what you need to be truly successful.

Find someone with a tailwheel airplane and a CFI that knows how to fly it and start there...

Agree on all points. You can get great stick and rudder skills in glider 'sleigh rides' but it takes a lot of them and that's not very efficient or cost effective unless you are flying in a club with low rates, sweat equity, and you are willing to spend many hours on the field for few hours of actual flying. It can be wonderfully social though.

It's important to understand that while you may not rack up many hours going the glider route, you will rack up many glider TOs and Landings. It may take just as many calendar months to get the needed TOs and Landings in gliders as it takes to get the needed hours in airplanes.

I did my tailwheel following many years of gliding... that's when I REALLY learned some stick and rudder skills.

-What I didn't realize until after I got my glider rating, is that not having your own glider really hinders your ability to fly...even if you belong to a club. Depending on your location, you are limited to certain soaring months, limited soarable days within that month, and limited days your calendar can accommodate, so you won't be able to fly when you want if you don't own your own ship. Good news is that they are "relatively" inexpensive and very easy to maintain.

It can be worse than that. Once I could solo and learned to consistently stay up for my whole 1 hour slot, I had outgrown the club. Cross country is the next step but for the most part, it can't practically be done at most American clubs and commercial ops. You have to own to fly when you want and to explore the real challenges in soaring. I've owned 2 and they are relatively inexpensive to own and operate.

-You really have to love soaring. If you don't REALLY love it, you're not going to stay with it. Dragging a trailer around, assembling your glider, flying for a few hours, landing (possibly in a field), disassembling, etc. all in the summer heat has to be a labor of love. (It's totally worth it in my book).

-Bermuda High is a great place. Frank and Jane run a great operation and everyone I've spoken to there are really great people.

I love it even though I no longer do it. If you ask what kind of pilot I am, I'm a glider pilot... who learned to drive a Maule and who otherwise loves driving airplanes to and 'fro. But I'll always be a glider pilot.

Haven't seen Frank and Jane since Chester but they've always run a great operation. Being close to Bermuda High shifts the decision point a bit - that can be worth doing just because it's a great operation.

Pappy, thanks for the post!