Possibly reported for VFR on Top

  • Thread starter Thread starter OSH
  • Start date Start date
I really wouldn’t worry about it. I had a jet jock make a similar claim toward me once before to ATC. There were scattered cumulus clouds all around and I was on the east side of one, the jet was on the west side and up higher. He couldn’t see my white airplane against a white cloud on the opposite side that he was on and told ATC I must not be in VMC - I was. I piped up and defended myself and advised the traffic in sight with my position (3 to 4 o’clock low). Nobody said another word.
OSH said:
Is this something I should be very concerned about?
Click to expand...
As mentioned, no, it’s not. Claims like these are pretty much impossible to prove and is not something the FSDO would spend their time trying to chase down without substantial evidence.
 
I received several of these reports over the years. Sorta hard to adjudicate from within the windowless room, so basically it's just a "roger."

I'm wondering why the controller vectored the IFR, unless they were in Class B. Perhaps the IFR aircraft requested it.
 
OSH said:
The flight aware tracks show my aircraft at 4,500' and his at 4,000'
He was a mile or so west of my track which is likely why he was in the clouds. I only need less than half a mile separation from the clouds for VFR so unless he was directly under me (which he was not) therefore he can not describe what the cloud tops were at my exact location.

I am not going to post flight aware tracks as it will show registration of both aircraft...

After this encounter I will not fly VFR over the Top unless I am at least several thousand feet above the clouds to save myself from false claims in the future...
Click to expand...
So you had the 2000 laterally. How far above the clouds beneath you were you? If at least 1000 above the stuff beaneath you, then you were good. You don't have to be a 1000 feet above a cloud that's 2000 feet away. I wouldn't go so far as to just quit flying anywhere within miles of clouds just because one guy, one time, who was inside a cloud and therefore could not see how far from it you were, jumped to a conclussion.
 
PastZTL said:
I received several of these reports over the years. Sorta hard to adjudicate from within the windowless room, so basically it's just a "roger."

I'm wondering why the controller vectored the IFR, unless they were in Class B. Perhaps the IFR aircraft requested it.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't surprise me if he did. Or the pilot seemed so concerned about it, he took it as a request and did it.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like both parties are telling what they believe to be the truth.
What has been stated:

The IFR guy was in the clouds at 4,000'

The OP was above them at 4,500',

The cloud layer was broken.

If all of these statements are true it is HIGHLY unlikely the OP had 1000' of cloud clearance below.

If the IFR pilot is factually correct, and the OP is factually correct about the cloud distances, then the OP couldn't have been flying at 4,500 MSL. The altimeter is either REALLY off, or the altimeter setting was wrong and the OP was cruising at a wrong altitude assuming terrain elevation was less than 1500MSL.

If the IFR pilot was correct about being in the clouds at 4,000 and the OP was correct about the altimeter, then the OP needs some more experience in determining cloud distances.

It's possible the IFR pilot wasn't at 4,000' and the OP was both at 4,500' and had 1000 feet of clearance, but if the IFR pilot wasn't at 4000 ATC would have probably been constsntly yelling at him to get at the correct altitude.

So I wonder what the real story is. Post the flight aware tracks.
Click to expand...

Unless either of them had a tape measure really no way to tell if he was or wasn’t 1000 feet above.
 
I think the lesson here is that if you are going to fly VFR over-the-top, it would be very helpful and contribute to safety if you were on VFR flight following. Even at 1,000 feet above, a Citation poping out of the top of the cloud would be on you before you could say Jack Robinson. Then again, a significant number of us have ADS-B In/Out and would maybe see it coming.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like both parties are telling what they believe to be the truth.
What has been stated:

The IFR guy was in the clouds at 4,000'

The OP was above them at 4,500',

The cloud layer was broken.

If all of these statements are true it is HIGHLY unlikely the OP had 1000' of cloud clearance below.

If the IFR pilot is factually correct, and the OP is factually correct about the cloud distances, then the OP couldn't have been flying at 4,500 MSL. The altimeter is either REALLY off, or the altimeter setting was wrong and the OP was cruising at a wrong altitude assuming terrain elevation was less than 1500MSL.

If the IFR pilot was correct about being in the clouds at 4,000 and the OP was correct about the altimeter, then the OP needs some more experience in determining cloud distances.

It's possible the IFR pilot wasn't at 4,000' and the OP was both at 4,500' and had 1000 feet of clearance, but if the IFR pilot wasn't at 4000 ATC would have probably been constsntly yelling at him to get at the correct altitude.

So I wonder what the real story is. Post the flight aware tracks.
Click to expand...
I’m curious how you determine cloud distance.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I’m curious how you determine cloud distance.
Click to expand...

I file and don't worry about it. However if I'm insistent on VFR: vertically, when I get to the top of the layer I check my altimeter, and see how stable the top of the layer is. Then climb appropriately above that. If more vertical in front of me, just like landing. IF the cloud top stays the same position in the windscreen I'm not climbing or descending above it. I know the altitude, and again climb appropriately. Horizontally, section lines and shadows.
 
kyleb said:
A couple of google searches will lead you from my N-number to my name to my phone number. Ain't hard.
Click to expand...

So I can be like the kid who tracks Musk.

Pull ADSB data, comparing it to ATIS, some simple programming….I can start “violating” all you pilots. ;-)
 
Only "talk" to other pilots when they make a reasonable effort to kill me. If they are attempting to kill themselves I typically don't bother.
 
Nobody has mentioned that the OP broke a reg by his own admission by “finding a hole” in a broken layer. No need to estimate distances for cloud clearances. Broken is a ceiling.

Edited, my bad.(leaving quietly through the back door).
 
Last edited:
EdFred said:
I file and don't worry about it. However if I'm insistent on VFR: vertically, when I get to the top of the layer I check my altimeter, and see how stable the top of the layer is. Then climb appropriately above that. If more vertical in front of me, just like landing. IF the cloud top stays the same position in the windscreen I'm not climbing or descending above it. I know the altitude, and again climb appropriately. Horizontally, section lines and shadows.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Was curious how you estimated.
 
Blatham489 said:
Nobody has mentioned that the OP broke a reg by his own admission by “finding a hole” in a broken layer. No need to estimate distances for cloud clearances. Broken is a ceiling.
Click to expand...

Because he didn't break a regulation. Broken is a ceiling, but if he had cloud clearance, there's no prohibition of climbing above it if you are exercising the privileges of a private pilot or higher.

Which regulation do you think he broke?
 
Blatham489 said:
Nobody has mentioned that the OP broke a reg by his own admission by “finding a hole” in a broken layer. No need to estimate distances for cloud clearances. Broken is a ceiling.
Click to expand...

What is reported as a broken layer only constitutes a broken layer for the area of relevant coverage above the observation point. This will also vary with time and only represents the snapshot in time of the observation. A couple miles away from the observation point it is quite possible to have a hole large enough to legally poke through (the "hole" only needs to be about about a mile wide for it to be legal). This also gets to the point of what constitutes a "cloud" for visual clearance. If it is a thin layer of visible moisture that merely reduces visibility somewhat but can be "seen through", is it a "cloud" for visual separation purposes?
 
Blatham489 said:
Nobody has mentioned that the OP broke a reg by his own admission by “finding a hole” in a broken layer. No need to estimate distances for cloud clearances. Broken is a ceiling.

Edited, my bad.(leaving quietly through the back door).
Click to expand...
Lol. There’s always someone here to catch every little goof you make.
 
Since we don’t have cloud distance measuring equipment, all you can do is give it your best guess.

But then there was the guy. I was flying a GA-7 out of N71 for some instrument time/currency. I had another instrument rated pilot in the left seat, mainly in case I needed a safety pilot. And another PPL, non-instrument in the back along for the ride. I was shooting approaches into LNS. ZI had been up to 4000 and was at 3000 being vectored for another approach.

So this guy checks in at 3500, “VFR” asking to shoot a “practice approach.” Now, I had just shot an approach to that runway and it was IMC down to about 800 feet AGL. And I shot another one after this guys “practice approach” to the same runway and it was solid IMC again. In fact, most of the Eastern US was IMC that day.

I did report that I was IMC when this “VFR” guy was called out as traffic. :D
 
Blatham489 said:
Nobody has mentioned that the OP broke a reg by his own admission by “finding a hole” in a broken layer. No need to estimate distances for cloud clearances. Broken is a ceiling.

Edited, my bad.(leaving quietly through the back door).
Click to expand...
Don’t forget to file an ASRS report. ;)
 
AIM 4-4-11 c said:
When radar is employed in the separation of aircraft at the same altitude, a minimum of 3 miles separation is provided between aircraft operating within 40 miles of the radar antenna site, and 5 miles between aircraft operating beyond 40 miles from the antenna site. These minima may be increased or decreased in certain specific situations.
Click to expand...

It is perfectly possible for you to be VFR, and the other pilot to be fully enveloped in IMC, and for the IFR guy to be vectored around you. The most plausible situation here is that you were both flying within the regs, and ATC was fulfilling their requirement to maintain separation.
 
To the OP: I have been vectored around many "aircraft x-oclock, reporting xxxx, unverified." It would be very helpful if VFR aircraft, especially near weather, would talk to the controllers. If you are talking to them, they can verify your reported altitude and not have to issue as many vectors to others to stay clear of you. I think that is what happened here. The controller did not know if your 4500 was accurate, so he vectored the guy. And, this guy was a little upset. (I think he is a a-hole for contacting you.)
 
OSH said:
Hello
A few days back I was heading home from a long cross-country in a VFR only aircraft, I stopped about an hour out from home base at an airport to refuel, just so happened that another airplane from my airport was at said airport.

After departing the airport The clouds were broken at around 2,500'. I found a gap in clouds and decided to go VFR on top and cruised at 4,500'. While I didn't have a tape measure on board from what I could tell I was well within the VFR cloud clearance requirements in the class E airspace. There were taller clouds to the left and right of me however they were several miles laterally from me.

Later that day I get a call from the pilot of the other aircraft. He told me they where on an IFR flight plan and where in the clouds at my same altitude (however they were only at 4,000') And he swore that there was no way I was in VFR conditions (which I most definitely was). He told me the controller had to vector him around me.

I did not ask anymore questions from said pilot. I am concerned he might of reported me, or possible the ATC might of reported me.

So my questions are...
1. If reported how long till I find out, and how will I find out?
2. While I was legal, if FAA disagrees what would the likely enforcement action be?
3. Is this something I should be very concerned about?

Anything helps!
Click to expand...

I never trust my ability to eyeball the distance from a cloud, especially 500 ft vs 1000 ft. Just make it easy for everyone and get flight following. The only way the other pilot must have known you were VFR was because ATC told him they see a traffic and they are not talking to that traffic.
 
azpilot said:
It is perfectly possible for you to be VFR, and the other pilot to be fully enveloped in IMC, and for the IFR guy to be vectored around you. The most plausible situation here is that you were both flying within the regs, and ATC was fulfilling their requirement to maintain separation.
Click to expand...

That AIM reference is for IFR vs IFR. What @PastZTL was getting at earlier, there’s no separation for the OP’s situation so no need to vector. Issue a traffic call to the IFR and be done with it. If he reports IMC, the controller CAN issue a vector but it’s not a requirement.
 
Last edited:
steingar said:
Something smells. How did the other pilot know to call the OP on the OP's phone number?
Click to expand...

Well, I have the phone numbers of a number of pilots whose tail numbers I know. And yeah, I've called them afterwards and said "hey, heard you on frequency, where were you off to/from?" after the flight.
Not rocket surgery.

Also easy enough to call the airport manager at my place and say, "who owns N123AB?" "Can I get his number?"
 
EdFred said:
Well, I have the phone numbers of a number of pilots whose tail numbers I know. And yeah, I've called them afterwards and said "hey, heard you on frequency, where were you off to/from?" after the flight.
Not rocket surgery.

Also easy enough to call the airport manager at my place and say, "who owns N123AB?" "Can I get his number?"
Click to expand...

Shoot, they both rent from the same FBO, just look at the web scheduling tool for name and contact info.
 
[QUOTE="thito01, post: 3319741, member: 43350" It would be very helpful if VFR aircraft, especially near weather, would talk to the controllers. If you are talking to them, they can verify your reported altitude and not have to issue as many vectors to others to stay clear of you.[/QUOTE]

But then they cannot fly illegal IMC and get away with it.
 
Pinecone said:
But then they cannot fly illegal IMC and get away with it.
Click to expand...

Sure ya can. No one is gonna be able to tell you were 1950' from a cloud, or 450' below. Are they gonna scramble an aircraft to fly formation and measure with LIDAR how far away the clouds REALLY are?
 
On my checkride the examiner asked me how far we were from a cloud

I looked out and thought a second. Then replied "I'd say we were at least a half a mile"

he responded "so do I"
 
cowtowner said:
On my checkride the examiner asked me how far we were from a cloud

I looked out and thought a second. Then replied "I'd say we were at least a half a mile"

he responded "so do I"
Click to expand...
“But the only way to tell for sure is to fly straight to the cloud and time how long it takes to get there.”
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top