Possession of controlled substance

[bobglaub]

Hello. I'm new here. First, let me explain:

(the question is at the end if y'all don't care to read)

I am a proud holder of Commercial Multi/Single Engine Land Instrument rated pilot. However, I have not flown since October. Pretty much got my commercial, ran out of money, can't finish my ratings so i'm grounded. depressing enough as it is, NOW i can't find a job to help pay back the loan, OR finish school. so now we fast forward to today...

I had a tooth, that has been giving me great discomfort. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, it sucked. My dentist appointment wasn't until Tuesday, and my tooth hurt Thursday, friday, saturday, sunday, and monday. I Took various over the counter medications, ibuprofen, asprin, tylenol, which helped a little, but come Sunday, i couldn't deal with it anymore. "My friend says, just smoke some weed man." I haven't done this for nearly 5 years, never got in trouble with it, i figured, sure. Why not.
it helped.
NOW, we are at today. AFter the dentist appointment. I stop by my friends house and BS with him for a while then he had to go to a doctor's appointment, and I, back home for yardwork. ON the way home, my friend is pulled over for something, and I also am pulled over not a block away from him. So I think, what's this all about? Apparently, he had gotten himself into a bit of trouble with the Cops over drugs. The guys that stopped me were detectives, they asked me if I were to pee in a cup for them, if I would pee clean. I said no, as it had been 2 days since I have smoked. (I KNOW right?) So they bring me in, because in utah they can charge me with a DUI just for having it in my system apparently, question me, make me pee in a cup, then let me go with a ticket for possession and a class b misdemeanor.

My question:
I currently hold a first class medical, it's up in July.
What is this ticket going to do for my eventual pilot career? am I totally screwed? Do I have to inform the FAA? When?
FAR part 61.15 a 1 says that i could have my license suspended for up to a year.
Is there anything I can do? I"m really at a loss here.

Please, help. if I gotta talk to an AME, I will. I just want to fly airplanes.

 

[gismo]

Hello. I'm new here. First, let me explain:

(the question is at the end if y'all don't care to read)

I am a proud holder of Commercial Multi/Single Engine Land Instrument rated pilot. However, I have not flown since October. Pretty much got my commercial, ran out of money, can't finish my ratings so i'm grounded. depressing enough as it is, NOW i can't find a job to help pay back the loan, OR finish school. so now we fast forward to today...

I had a tooth, that has been giving me great discomfort. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, it sucked. My dentist appointment wasn't until Tuesday, and my tooth hurt Thursday, friday, saturday, sunday, and monday. I Took various over the counter medications, ibuprofen, asprin, tylenol, which helped a little, but come Sunday, i couldn't deal with it anymore. "My friend says, just smoke some weed man." I haven't done this for nearly 5 years, never got in trouble with it, i figured, sure. Why not.
it helped.
NOW, we are at today. AFter the dentist appointment. I stop by my friends house and BS with him for a while then he had to go to a doctor's appointment, and I, back home for yardwork. ON the way home, my friend is pulled over for something, and I also am pulled over not a block away from him. So I think, what's this all about? Apparently, he had gotten himself into a bit of trouble with the Cops over drugs. The guys that stopped me were detectives, they asked me if I were to pee in a cup for them, if I would pee clean. I said no, as it had been 2 days since I have smoked. (I KNOW right?) So they bring me in, because in utah they can charge me with a DUI just for having it in my system apparently, question me, make me pee in a cup, then let me go with a ticket for possession and a class b misdemeanor.

My question:
I currently hold a first class medical, it's up in July.
What is this ticket going to do for my eventual pilot career? am I totally screwed? Do I have to inform the FAA? When?
FAR part 61.15 a 1 says that i could have my license suspended for up to a year.
Is there anything I can do? I"m really at a loss here.

Please, help. if I gotta talk to an AME, I will. I just want to fly airplanes.

First thing you should do is consult an Aviation lawyer. AOPA has a list of recommendations, I'd start there. You may get some good and bad advice here and on other internet forums but for the most part that's gonna be worth about what you paid for it. If you're serious about an aviation career you should get the best help with this you can afford (even if it means more debt).

 

[steingar]

Of course, lawyers cost money, lots of it. Sounds to me like someone majorly violated your 4th amendment rights, but too late now, the FAA really doesn't give a rat's astronaut.

 

[TMetzinger]

Sigh.....

What Gismo said. You can work aggressively to fix this now, or you can wait (a LONG time) for it's relevance to fade.

You need a lawyer to work the Criminal side to make the charges go away.
You need a lawyer to work the FAA side to negotiate you keeping your medical.

 

[weilke]

#1 stop talking, writing, blogging etc.
#2 get a good criminal defense lawyer to make this entire episode go away.
#3 stop talking, writing, blogging etc.
#4 get better friends
#5 do not talk to the FAA or your AME until you have to.

 

[Steve Foley]

Of course, lawyers cost money, lots of it. Sounds to me like someone majorly violated your 4th amendment rights, but too late now, the FAA really doesn't give a rat's astronaut.

Why is it too late? Will the FAA hold up a medical for an arrest without a conviction?

It seems that for a few AMUs, the OP could hire a lawyer and file a motion to suppress. From the story told, the detectives did not have reasonable suspicion for the stop.

On the other hand, if OP forgot to use a turn signal, or otherwise gave the police a valid reason for the stop, all bets are off.

 

[steingar]

If I recall correctly, the FAA cares only about arrests. They take a very dim view of controlled substances, and I believe the path to redemption requires a skillful AMe, time, and lots and lots of money.

 

[bobglaub]

Well, there was no reason for the stop. I had pulled over into a parking lot and shut my car off. The "possession" they charged me with was becasue they made me pee in a cup. I do not know the results of that test. I honestly think it might have come out clean, but I do not know. they claim they can 'make it go away' if i work with them to get drugs off the street. I'll see if i can find a lawyer. Thanks ya'll.

 

[Steve Foley]

Well, there was no reason for the stop.

See above post by weilke

#1 stop talking, writing, blogging etc.
#2 get a good criminal defense lawyer to make this entire episode go away.
#3 stop talking, writing, blogging etc.
#4 get better friends
#5 do not talk to the FAA or your AME until you have to.

 

[weilke]

From the story told, the detectives did not have reasonable suspicion for the stop.

From the story told in the charging documents 'he was seen leaving a known drug-location' (the home of his pot-dealer friend).

Could this get thrown out, sure, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Jack Spectre]

Note to other pilots who may be reading this: if you have pain of some kind, smoking weed is not the answer. Go to urgent care or something and get some vicodin.

In review:

1. Don't smoke weed
2. Don't talk to the cops without a lawyer (other than to tell them your name)
3. Don't consent to a search / pee test, etc...EVER
4. Don't hang out with weed smoking douchebags.

 

[weilke]

Well, there was no reason for the stop. I had pulled over into a parking lot and shut my car off. The "possession" they charged me with was becasue they made me pee in a cup. I do not know the results of that test. I honestly think it might have come out clean, but I do not know. they claim they can 'make it go away' if i work with them to get drugs off the street. I'll see if i can find a lawyer. Thanks ya'll.

Typical narc tactics. Your friend is a low-level target in this operation. If you help them to get to his supplier, there is a chance that you can plead it down to paraphernalia or something else minor.

Lawyer up, shut up. Try to get the legality of the stop thrown out so this entire episode becomes a tragic miscarriage of justice.

 

[weilke]

3. Don't consent to a search / pee test, etc...EVER

In many states, if you operate a motor vehicle you have consented to chemical testing. If you refuse, you will catch a charge of 'refusal to test' which has the same FAA consequences as a DUI. Your situation from a criminal perspective is better but you still have to deal with the FAA once the conviction is final.

4. Don't hang out with weed smoking douchebags.

This!

 

[flykelley]

Note to other pilots who may be reading this: if you have pain of some kind, smoking weed is not the answer. Go to urgent care or something and get some vicodin.

In review:

1. Don't smoke weed
2. Don't talk to the cops without a lawyer (other than to tell them your name)
3. Don't consent to a search / pee test, etc...EVER
4. Don't hang out with weed smoking douchebags.

This advise is spot on, just had to explain this to my daughter. Don't talk to em, don't consent to anything.

Good Luck Mike

 

[wsuffa]

Note to other pilots who may be reading this: if you have pain of some kind, smoking weed is not the answer. Go to urgent care or something and get some vicodin.

In review:

1. Don't smoke weed
2. Don't talk to the cops without a lawyer (other than to tell them your name)
3. Don't consent to a search / pee test, etc...EVER
4. Don't hang out with weed smoking douchebags.

And
5. Don't post details or argue your case on an internet forum, especially with a user name attached.

All this goes to judgement. You think passengers riding in a commercial airliner that you're flying would find your judgement to be outstanding?

 

[jesse]

Not consenting to a test in some states will make things even worse for you, especially if the test would have been negative.

 

[AdamZ]

First thing you should do is consult an Aviation lawyer. AOPA has a list of recommendations, I'd start there. You may get some good and bad advice here and on other internet forums but for the most part that's gonna be worth about what you paid for it. If you're serious about an aviation career you should get the best help with this you can afford (even if it means more debt).

Excellent advice!

Of course, lawyers cost money, lots of it. Sounds to me like someone majorly violated your 4th amendment rights, but too late now, the FAA really doesn't give a rat's astronaut.

Meh perhaps not. You never know what they have on the surveillance tapes. it all depends.

#1 stop talking, writing, blogging etc.
#2 get a good criminal defense lawyer to make this entire episode go away.
#3 stop talking, writing, blogging etc.
#4 get better friends
#5 do not talk to the FAA or your AME until you have to.

Good advice as well

Note to other pilots who may be reading this: if you have pain of some kind, smoking weed is not the answer. Go to urgent care or something and get some vicodin.

In review:

1. Don't smoke weed
2. Don't talk to the cops without a lawyer (other than to tell them your name)
3. Don't consent to a search / pee test, etc...EVER
4. Don't hang out with weed smoking douchebags.

1,2 and 4 Good advice. 3 perhaps bad advice. In some states failure to provide a test sample will result in a license suspension regardless of whether you have been convicted. Refusal in some places can be used as evidence of guilt as well.

And
5. Don't post details or argue your case on an internet forum, especially with a user name attached. ...

Really good advice as well.

Not consenting to a test in some states will make things even worse for you, especially if the test would have been negative.

You learn well grasshopper.

Unfortunatly THC ( what gets you high from pot) is absorbed by fat and elimiated over time. Actually is the 80 or so metabolites of THC that gets absorbed by fat and is what is tested for. Heavy or regular pot smokers can retain the metabolites for well over a month however in lighter use it could be about a week and a half that the metabolites can be detected in the Urine.

 

[Steve Foley]

From the story told in the charging documents 'he was seen leaving a known drug-location' (the home of his pot-dealer friend).

Could this get thrown out, sure, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I'd bet on it, but only a case of good beer.

I don't think leaving a known drug location provides sufficient reasonable suspicion of criminal activity for a stop.

 

[bobglaub]

[QUOTE
I don't think leaving a known drug location provides sufficient reasonable suspicion of criminal activity for a stop.[/QUOTE]

I was never technically stopped as I was already pulled over and the car was off. I'm not arguing anything, simply stating my predicament. ****ty situation.

One other thing, I do not strive to be a commercial airline pilot. My dreams lay elsewhere. Perhaps Alaska, perhaps Africa. Who knows. I just don't really like the idea of being a bus driver. a Taxi pilot i could do. but I'd like to actually fly the airplane.

I appreciate your help and advice.

 

[Unregistered]

Typical narc tactics. Your friend is a low-level target in this operation. If you help them to get to his supplier, there is a chance that you can plead it down to paraphernalia or something else minor.

Lawyer up, shut up. Try to get the legality of the stop thrown out so this entire episode becomes a tragic miscarriage of justice.

Definately lawyer up, and consider a few things:
How often have you been to yer buddies place?
If not for a while, they might have thought you could be his supplier (Murphy's Law), therefore justifying the stop.
If you were arrested, they would have had to mirandise you and anything you said before that (incriminating) could be tossed. (5th ammendment)
It sounds like a gray area, the cops were probably trying to get you to rat in some way. Your lawyer knows more but if you are the model citizen and have no clue about suppliers and such you are likely not worth the time and cost of prosecution. Stay as low on that totem pole as you possibly can, and lawyer up.
Did anyone tell you to get a lawyer?
Best of luck to you.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why is it too late? Will the FAA hold up a medical for an arrest without a conviction?

For a DUI? Yes, they will, and it's now a required disclosure on your medical application.

It seems that for a few AMUs, the OP could hire a lawyer and file a motion to suppress. From the story told, the detectives did not have reasonable suspicion for the stop.

Even if the case is dismissed, the arrest still must be reported.

And, now that the OP has stated here that he had been smoking "weed," if the FAA gets hold of that and traces it to him (which is theoretically possible), that statement can be used in evidence against the OP in an FAA legal action.

As to his original questions...

What is this ticket going to do for my eventual pilot career?

Pretty much tank it as far as flying for the airlines goes for at least five years of perfect behavior, and maybe forever.

am I totally screwed?

Depends on your definition of "totally screwed." If you are speaking of your status with the FAA, yes, you pretty much are. You can't avoid reporting the arrest and positive drug test.

Do I have to inform the FAA? When?

You must report the arrest on your next medical, along with the positive drug test and (if convicted) the conviction for possession of a controlled substance. The last part may result in a 1-year suspension of your pilot and medical certificates. The first two will certainly result in denial or deferral of your next medical and required some really expensive evaluations and testing to get it back.

In addition, if convicted on the DUI, or if any action is taken on your driver's license, you'll have 60 days to report that to the FAA under 61.15(e).

FAR part 61.15 a 1 says that i could have my license suspended for up to a year.

That's right.

Is there anything I can do?

Hire really good criminal defense and aviation attorneys, and stop discussing this matter with anyone but them, and most of all, stop discussing it in public (although the horse may be long gone from the barn on that one).

BTW, my personal opinion, based on the original post, is that either the OP is a troll, or lacks the good judgement which a professional pilot must have. If he's not a troll, I strongly suspect the FAA will take the latter position. And even in Alaska, when a potential employer (even not a 121 carrier) sees a previous drug-related suspension, your application is probably going to the bottom of the pile below that of every applicant with no drug/alcohol history.

 

[Steve Foley]

BTW, my personal opinion, based on the original post, is that either the OP is a troll

Based on the changing fact pattern, I'd have to agree.

• I also am pulled over not a block away from him
• The guys that stopped me were detectives

But later

• I was never technically stopped as I was already pulled over and the car was off.

It's too bad. I was looking forward to a case of good beer (going either direction).

 

[bobglaub]

not a troll. just a stupid guy, doing stupid ****, at the wrong time.

 

[poadeleted20]

not a troll. just a stupid guy, doing stupid ****, at the wrong time.

Well, perhaps you've just taken the first step forward. Now get some legal help, and start on your steps to permanent sobriety.

And as you move forward, recognize that in aviation, there's never a right time to do "stupid [stuff]."

 

[bobglaub]

Well, perhaps you've just taken the first step forward. Now get some legal help, and start on your steps to permanent sobriety.

And as you move forward, recognize that in aviation, there's never a right time to do "stupid [stuff]."

wouldn't have happened if I was actually flying. too bad a commercial pilot really can't get a job anywhere huh.

 

[TMetzinger]

wouldn't have happened if I was actually flying. too bad a commercial pilot really can't get a job anywhere huh.

Sure you can. Get a CFI, go teach. Well most schools wouldn't hire you after this incident

And it makes no difference why you did it. By the time you get your commercial ticket you should KNOW that illegal drugs are verboten.

sent from my android

 

[bbchien]

Even if this doesn't result in a conviction (Airman security 60 day reporting rule, or you lose you PILOT certs, and THEY WILL FIND IT ON THE DATATAPES), you have to report the arrest on your June medical, under the language in 18v subpart 1.

If convicted, it goes on the datatapes and Airman security Div. (where you have to report in 60 days) will pull your ticket for nonreporting.

So why don't you email me. My email from this site works.
No Anon s_it. I'm not the FAA. I'm a HIMS AME.

Check it out.
You were, it sounds pretty stupid, but weed does that to you....

I can tell you for a First class you are going to need:
(1) A substance abuse eval by a masters-level substance counselor to FAA standards, I have them and can email them to you. (~$200)
(2) A bunch of labwork
(3) Evidence you are clean. You clearly aren't.
(4) A random urine monitoring program. They call (it's random) you have to drop a urine in 24 hours or it's scored as a positive.
(5) A Driver's License search back to age of initial licensing to assure this is your only hit.
(6) Two hits, and you are automatically considered to have chronic abuse.
(7) Three and you're out for life unless in a HIMS program.

It's pretty stupid to be smoking if you're a pilot. Esp. a First Class.

I do a lot of this. Sigh.

 

[bobglaub]

(6) Two hits, and you are automatically considered to have chronic abuse.
(7) Three and you're out for life unless in a HIMS program.

It's pretty stupid to be smoking if you're a pilot. Esp. a First Class.

I do a lot of this. Sigh.

I do not have chronic abuse. I am not worried about passing a Urine test. I am sure by the end of this week i'll be clean. Shoot, i'm probably clean now.

It IS VERY stupid to be smoking if you're a pilot. Unfortunately for me, pilots fly. I don't.

 

[poadeleted20]

I do not have chronic abuse.

Just to be sure we're all on the same page, this isn't what the average Joe in the street would consider "chronic abuse," it's what the FAA considers "chronic abuse," and from Bruce's post, I gather that means two positive drug tests in your lifetime -- and it sounds like you may have one already.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It IS VERY stupid to be smoking if you're a pilot. Unfortunately for me, pilots fly. I don't.

Is there a pilot certificate in your pocket? Yes? Then you're a pilot. Doesn't matter if you're flying or not. You need to start thinking that way now (well, the instant you got the cert would obviously have been much better).

So. Even if you're not flying, you need to "straighten up and fly right," don't do stupid stuff, report all your address changes and driver's license actions and such to the FAA within the prescribed time periods, etc. The FAA doesn't give a rat's behind if you're flying or not.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In many states, if you operate a motor vehicle you have consented to chemical testing. If you refuse, you will catch a charge of 'refusal to test' which has the same FAA consequences as a DUI. Your situation from a criminal perspective is better but you still have to deal with the FAA once the conviction is final.

Read the original story again:

they asked me if I were to pee in a cup for them, if I would pee clean. I said no

That... Was dumb. They didn't make him pee in a cup. They asked him for probable cause to make him pee in a cup, and he handed it right over. If he'd have said "Yep, I'd be clean" they'd have probably asked him a few questions about his friend and gone on their merry way. Cops know what someone who's drunk/high looks and acts like - They knew he was sober at that moment, but they went fishing, and the fish went for the bait.

 

[bbchien]

It IS VERY stupid to be smoking if you're a pilot.

See you knew the consequences of using the stuff.....

I Took various over the counter medications, ibuprofen, asprin, tylenol, which helped a little, but come Sunday, i couldn't deal with it anymore. "My friend says, just smoke some weed man." I haven't done this for nearly 5 years, never got in trouble with it, i figured, sure. Why not.
it helped.
NOW, we are at today. AFter the dentist appointment. I stop by my friends house and BS with him for a while then he had to go to a doctor's appointment, and I, back home for yardwork. ON the way home, my friend is pulled over for something, and I also am pulled over not a block away from him. So I think, what's this all about? Apparently, he had gotten himself into a bit of trouble with the Cops over drugs. The guys that stopped me were detectives, they asked me if I were to pee in a cup for them, if I would pee clean. I said no, as it had been 2 days since I have smoked. (I KNOW right?) So they bring me in, because in utah they can charge me with a DUI just for having it in my system apparently, question me, make me pee in a cup, then let me go with a ticket for possession and a class b misdemeanor.

...but you used it anyway.

That is one of the five criteria (and you only need one) for the FAA for substance abuse. We get very good at reading personal statements. You just convicted yourself, in the eyes of the FAA. The first thing you gotta do is realize it's a problem.

I did a good many SI evaluations the week I did "superAME" at FAA-where they park the AME in an office, on the system, with the files, reach dispositions, and get our dispositions criticized. What you just wrote convicted you in the eyes of the FAA that you have chronic abuse. You may not think so, but that DOES NOT MATTER.

If you don't "get it", your friends are going to be flying the run to Germany and you'll still be doing the yard, and you'll no longer have an ATP nor a medical certificate.

Cleanliness of a single spot urine doesn't mean squat. There are 11 criteria and they only need one to hang. You just provided it.

Alex, I deal with pilots who have been so stupid as to get fired on their day off! Yeah, they're not flying that day, but the company random program called them in to test. SO very stupid. The DRUG makes the man stupid.

 

[bobglaub]

I understand all of this. i did "go for the bait" as they say. but what i am trying to do is move on. I need to know what I need to do so I can, hopefully, one day, fly. If i can't move forward from this, then **** it.

 

[flykelley]

I understand all of this. i did "go for the bait" as they say. but what i am trying to do is move on. I need to know what I need to do so I can, hopefully, one day, fly. If i can't move forward from this, then **** it.

Alex
Pay attention to what Dr Bruce posted earlier, he said to EMAIL him, listen to what the man has said, he has been around and helped a lot of pilots. If anyone can help you through this mess its Dr Bruce. Now QUIT posting about this and take it offline if you ever want to have a chance to fly again. When you get it settled then please post about the outcome. NOW LISTEN TO DR BRUCE.

Good Luck Mike

 

[sba55]

3. Don't consent to a search / pee test, etc...EVER.

Yes. I'd say "Don't volunteer a search/test/etc.". If they ask you if you mind if we search the car - then yes, you do mind. If they have reasonable suspicion, they will search anyways.

Same thing with the pee test. You don't just do it because they ask if you would mind. If they tell you that you have to do it or face penalties, then you do consent. But never volunteer anything.

I don't get why people voluntarily self-incriminate. It's like the traffic stop question "hey do you know how fast you're going?". You obviously don't tell them if you were speeding, you also don't tell them that you were just going a few miles above (which is still illegal), and you don't lie either. The proper answer is "I'm sure you will tell me".

 

[gismo]

I don't get why people voluntarily self-incriminate. It's like the traffic stop question "hey do you know how fast you're going?". You obviously don't tell them if you were speeding, you also don't tell them that you were just going a few miles above (which is still illegal), and you don't lie either. The proper answer is "I'm sure you will tell me".

One time I got pulled over while tooling along in a 30 mph zone with my mind in another zone (not chemically induced). The cop asked me if I knew how fast I was going and I answered truthfully: "Sorry, I don't have a clue". The cop said "Well at least you're honest" and let me go with a warning after telling me I was doing close to 45 mph.

Much more recently I was pulled over while going 47 (according to my GPS) in a 40 zone and the officer (State Patrol this time even though it was on a local road) told me up front he was only going to issue a warning. I'm guessing he had some other suspicion about my car and used the slight overspeed as an excuse for the stop.

 

[wsuffa]

I understand all of this. i did "go for the bait" as they say. but what i am trying to do is move on. I need to know what I need to do so I can, hopefully, one day, fly. If i can't move forward from this, then **** it.

Incredible.

Dr. Bruce - who's one of the good guys - has offered to help you. And what I see from your posts since then are arguments. Yeah, I get that you're upset, but you certainly aren't demonstrating a very good attitude toward resolution and complaince.

Bruce is really a great guy, and we sure appreciate his help and participation here. If you don't want to take him up on his offer then so be it, but do us a favor and don't poison things for the rest of us.

Just incredible.

 

[murphey]

Not consenting to a test in some states will make things even worse for you, especially if the test would have been negative.

There's a difference between being asked if I would pee in the cup vs. being told to pee in the cup.

 

[gismo]

There's a difference between being asked if I would pee in the cup vs. being told to pee in the cup.

Actually he said he was asked if the urine would test positive if he peed in the cup. I think the safest answer would be "No". I doubt you could be convicted for lying even if you'd just smoked a joint unless your background made you an expert on such testing.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Actually he said he was asked if the urine would test positive if he peed in the cup. I think the safest answer would be "No". I doubt you could be convicted for lying even if you'd just smoked a joint unless your background made you an expert on such testing.

A lawyer would have you phrase it "not in my opinion."