Portable oxygen systems

Artiom

Artiom

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Artiom
Last Saturday I took off from Reid Hillview with my friends going to Las Vegas.
Before that flight all my flying was around small mountains around bay area and I never climbed above 7500'. This time I planned to fly at 9500'. I've never been that high in small airplane and didn't know how is my body going to handle high altitude. I bought oxymeter and was about to pick up my friends oxygen system for the flight but it didn't work out because of miscommunication.
I got to 9500', set up for cruise and started explaining to my nonflying friend which instrument does what and how. When we got to this device, you know, where you punch in squawk code assigned to you by ATC... How do they call that device???:yikes: And then I realized it is time to check O2 saturation. I was at 86%:eek:
I descended to 7500' and after couple minutes O2 saturation got up to 90% and I realized that device I was talking about called transponder!
That way I figured out I need supplementary oxygen above 7500' during the day.
I had to divert to Bakers field, rent a car and drive the rest of the way to Las Vegas. Hypoxia wasn't the only reason for that decision - there are wild fires going on south of lake Isabella and solid layer of smoke and clouds above it looked to me like a death trap. I think it is at least unwise to go between those two layers VFR.
So now I'm on the market for portable oxygen system. I saw "Doc Bruce - DIY Oxygen system" in Medical topics and that thread was updated last time 2 years ago.
I see 3 options:
1. Aerox or MH portable oxygen system - $450-500 for 2 places system.
2. DIY - around $300
3. "OXYGEN M6 TANK CYLINDER INCLUDES 0-8 LPM REGULATOR, CARRYING BAG" on Amazon - $130

Economically #3 is the best. Do you guys see anything wrong with that system?

I used search and didn't find the answer to my question - disclaimer to avoid "use search" posts :lol:
 
I did a lot of research and ended up with a Mountain High Pulse-Ox O2D2 system; very happy with it.
 
That is a teeny cylinder. I am dubious that a 5 cu. ft cyl can relaly do that many hours.

You will be pay full cylinder fills the same as any 19 cuft. Super "D". type. It will take very little time in the west before it will become noneconomical quickly. Say, $30 /fill teeny tank or $35 for a tank 4x larger.....
 
Whee.

I mean, I've been up to 9000 for an hour at a time before and felt no particular light-headedness or lack of clarity... but your post is kinda scary. Is this something that changes between people? I was following the idea that 12.5K is safe for 30 mins without oxygen from the regs, so 9K or 10K should be totally fine, but sounds like that might be potentially stretching it... anyone?
 
onwards said:
Whee.

I mean, I've been up to 9000 for an hour at a time before and felt no particular light-headedness or lack of clarity... but your post is kinda scary. Is this something that changes between people? I was following the idea that 12.5K is safe for 30 mins without oxygen from the regs, so 9K or 10K should be totally fine, but sounds like that might be potentially stretching it... anyone?
Click to expand...

Everyone's different. Folks who are used to high altitudes may be less susceptible. I measured 92% sat at 10.5k and I live at 5600'.
 
A mountain high system is a pulse system and gives a "shot" of O2 when you inhale, so the O2 tank lasts longer. There are different canulas based on the system you use. Look at my picture, I'm wearing an oximizer canula, looks like a mustache, and the flow meter is set lower than if I had a straight canula. The MH system has a special canula, senses the lower pressure in the line when you inhale and gives a shot of O2.

Curious that you were below 90% at 9500MSL.
 
Curious you were below 90% at 9500 MSL.
Age, do you smoke? Physical fit?

Still a good idea not to cross the hills near Kern or Tehachipe with the fires.
We had TRW blow through LAS around noon, the afternoon was better.
 
onwards said:
Whee.

I mean, I've been up to 9000 for an hour at a time before and felt no particular light-headedness or lack of clarity... but your post is kinda scary. Is this something that changes between people? I was following the idea that 12.5K is safe for 30 mins without oxygen from the regs, so 9K or 10K should be totally fine, but sounds like that might be potentially stretching it... anyone?
Click to expand...

I've cruised at 11.5 with a short duration climb to 12.5 for cloud clearance with no apparent effects. I had another much older pilot with me.

I'm 55yr old, 20yr AF flying, with many alt chamber rides, so I know my hypoxia symptom. Never smoked. Not so physically fit anymore. Color / night vision is the first to go, get on O2 earlier at night.

Everyone should experience hypoxia in a alt chamber. Everyone's frost symptom is different. Learn what it is.
 
BillTIZ said:
I've cruised at 11.5 with a short duration climb to 12.5 for cloud clearance with no apparent effects. I had another much older pilot with me.

I'm 55yr old, 20yr AF flying, with many alt chamber rides, so I know my hypoxia symptom. Never smoked. Not so physically fit anymore. Color / night vision is the first to go, get on O2 earlier at night.
Click to expand...
No necesarily so for anyone but oneself. It's very variable by individual, though may be consistent for one. Thus the duration of that teeny little bottle becomes an issue. The pulse systems (like Mountain High) are totally out of the OP's price range, though he can afford a $20 oxymizer cannula, which accumulates the O2 during exhalation. Not nearly quite as good, but you can buy a lot of O2 for $750 per person.
Everyone should experience hypoxia in a alt chamber. Everyone's frost symptom is different. Learn what it is.
Click to expand...
Agree. And it's free (well, nearly so, I think it's now $12.00 for materials) at OKC.
 
bbchien said:
That is a teeny cylinder. I am dubious that a 5 cu. ft cyl can relaly do that many hours.

You will be pay full cylinder fills the same as any 19 cuft. Super "D". type. It will take very little time in the west before it will become noneconomical quickly. Say, $30 /fill teeny tank or $35 for a tank 4x larger.....
Click to expand...

Good point. Here is similar one from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Oxygen-Cylinder-Regulator-Carrying/dp/B00465RMFQ
D Portable Oxygen Cylinder Kit with 0-8LPM Oxygen Regulator and Carrying Bag. -$135
I believe D is 13 cu. ft. With Aerox Oxysaver Cannula (add $35) should enough for 26.7 hours at 10000ft
 
Now THAT is more like it. Now you need a way to supply multiple persons at the same time....
 
BillTIZ said:
Curious you were below 90% at 9500 MSL.
Age, do you smoke? Physical fit?

Still a good idea not to cross the hills near Kern or Tehachipe with the fires.
We had TRW blow through LAS around noon, the afternoon was better.
Click to expand...

I'm 40 years old, not smoking, in good physical fit, a little bit overweighted - I'm 6' tall and 230lb. I lived all my life close to the sea level.
 
bbchien said:
Now THAT is more like it. Now you need a way to supply multiple persons at the same time....
Click to expand...

Well, two D bottle+Oxysaver Cannula sets $170*2=340
One Aerox Oxygen System, 22 cubic feet, 4 3/8" x 28" AO 2E for two - $439.
Does $80 justify hassle of carrying around 2 sets - probably not. However having two independed O2 sources on board adds redundancy. Decisions, decisions...
 
BillTIZ said:
Still a good idea not to cross the hills near Kern or Tehachipe with the fires.
We had TRW blow through LAS around noon, the afternoon was better.
Click to expand...

What is TRW?
I see you are based at 0L7. Where is the good place to cross mountains on the way to Las Vegas?
 
TRW = thunderstorms. I find that odd also. According to what happen you could not fly a pressurized plane with out supplemental O2. I am with Onward on this, you need to find out what the problem is. A 9000 foot cabin should not cause a problem for anybody. Heck I am so far "over the hill" I can't even see it from here and have no problem at 10,000 feet.
 
These little finger oxymeters we pick up from pilot supply stores are a handy little tool, but they are far from a precision medical diagnostic instrument.

You can get radically different readings simply by switching fingers or hands, sometimes, but not necessarily all the time. I've had readings that differed by as much as ten points just by switching fingers.

Then when you are at altitude, it is pretty easy to convince yourself you are lacking oxygen, or put another way, you can have psychosomatic symptoms of hypoxia when none actually exist.

Take for example hyperventilation. The person suffering from hyperventilation is absolutely convinced they are not getting enough air, so they breath even harder and deeper, when in actuality, the opposite is true, which is why the treatment is to simply breath into a paper bag to increase the carbon dioxide intake an decrease the oxygen intake.

The next time your oxymeter gives you a poor reading, take another using the opposite hand. As far as not remembering what a transponder is called, it could have simply been a legitimate brain fart caused by the stress of being at 9,500'. What made you want to check your oxygen count in the first place?

9,500' is not all that high when your sitting on your butt in a small airplane, it should not have caused you any problems, unless of course, it was at night. Even then, it is not a for sure thing, not at under ten thousand feet.

John
 
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ronnieh said:
TRW = thunderstorms. I find that odd also. According to what happen you could not fly a pressurized plane with out supplemental O2. I am with Onward on this, you need to find out what the problem is. A 9000 foot cabin should not cause a problem for anybody. Heck I am so far "over the hill" I can't even see it from here and have no problem at 10,000 feet.
Click to expand...

It was not pressurized C182. I'm not sure what problem do you mean?
 
If you are getting hypoxic at 9500 feet you have a problem of some kind. Of course a 182 is not pressurized but a pressurized plane can and often does have a cabin altitude of above 8500 feet. My point is 9500 feet should not cause a problem unless you have some other underlying medical problem.
 
John Baker said:
These little finger oxymeters we pick up from pilot supply stores are a handy little tool, but they are far from a precision medical diagnostic instrument.

You can get radically different readings simply by switching fingers or hands, sometimes, but not necessarily all the time. I've had readings that differed by as much as ten points just by switching fingers.

Then when you are at altitude, it is pretty easy to convince yourself you are lacking oxygen, or put another way, you can have psychosomatic symptoms of hypoxia when none actually exist.

Take for example hypertension. The person suffering form hypertension is absolutely convinced they are not getting enough air, so they breath even harder and deeper, when in actuality, the opposite is true, which is why the treatment is to simply breath into a paper bag to increase the carbon dioxide intake an decrease the oxygen intake.

The next time your oxymeter gives you a poor reading, take another using the opposite hand. As far as not remembering what a transponder is called, it could have simply been a legitimate brain fart caused by the stress of being at 9,500'. What made you want to check your oxygen count in the first place?

9,500' is not all that high when your sitting on your butt in a small airplane, it should not have caused you any problems, unless of course, it was at night. Even then, it is not a for sure thing, not at under ten thousand feet.

John
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You may be right - I very well may be just got mentally ready for it to happen. However I didn't feel "right" at 9500'. The only way to figure this out for me will be going to the same altitude with O2 oxygen system in stand by. Having it handy will make me not fearing hypoxia and not making things up :D
 
Artiom, people been telling me for years I ain't right:)
 
ronnieh said:
If you are getting hypoxic at 9500 feet you have a problem of some kind. Of course a 182 is not pressurized but a pressurized plane can and often does have a cabin altitude of above 8500 feet. My point is 9500 feet should not cause a problem unless you have some other underlying medical problem.
Click to expand...

I don't have any medical issues that I'm aware of. I'll definitely rise this question on my next check up.
From reading on this board and on red board I see many people having problem above 9000'. So I'm not sure it points to the medical problem.
 
ronnieh said:
Artiom, people been telling me for years I ain't right:)
Click to expand...
Ronnie, you may be right or may be not. The very last thing I want to do is put my head in the sand and pretend I cannot have any medical issue. We're all human beings (I hope:D) and may have health issues. I'll certainly ask on the next check up.
 
Artiom said:
I don't have any medical issues that I'm aware of. I'll definitely rise this question on my next check up.
From reading on this board and on red board I see many people having problem above 9000'. So I'm not sure it points to the medical problem.
Click to expand...

Raise the issue with your own doctor, not your AME. Wait until you know for sure, then discuss it with your AME.

John
 
I'm hypoxic at 12,5k. Not after 30, I'm slightly hypoxic when I get there. Blue tint to my fingers and toes after 30. Athletic, don't smoke, just how it is.

I had no idea I could get an O2 system so cheaply (aka in my price range). Thanks for starting this thread, especially since it's about to start getting dark early. Really want to try O2 at night also. Can't hurt!
 
Using this thread I built my own system.

I haunted Craig's list for a month or more and found two giant certified tanks from a local supplier for sale for $75 each. I found two medical E cylinders on Ebay for $10 each. My friend checked them out and they were perfect. I purchased the dual bottle filling equipment for around $50. I purchased 2 low flow O2 regulators on Ebay for $20. I looked for the kind they use for kids. You can dial them dial them down lower than the adult ones which saves O2. I have a medical professional who checks my cheapo oximeter regularly for accuracy. I picked up an oxygen bottle bag from WalMart. I modified it and reinforced it to fit in my bird behind the pax seat. The last time I did the math I think I could fill each medical E bottle for less than $7. I bought and filled the entire system for less than $250. It's portable and works perfectly.

I just had to be patient and keep looking online. I didn't take the first thing I found. I made sure it was all good stuff.
 
Artiom, mostly a little sarcasm from me. As I said, people been telling me for years I ain't right but I doubt it is from hypoxia. More than likely a personality flaw on my part:) Now joking aside. Do not, as John said, talk to your AME about this. He might take it serious. My point was that it is highly unlikely you were hypoxic at 9500 feet. I did not say it could not happen just not likely unless you have an underlying medical problem. As I stated, pressurized aircraft have cabin altitudes in that range all the time. If the FAA thought it even might be a problem the cabin altitude restrictions for part 135 operation would reflect that. If you had been at 12 - 13K for an hour then maybe. I do find it interesting that you said your sat's was down to 86. If this is not a measuring error and your sat's are down to 86% after a few minutes at 9500 you might consider looking into it a little more.
 
John Baker said:
These little finger oxymeters we pick up from pilot supply stores are a handy little tool, but they are far from a precision medical diagnostic instrument.
Click to expand...

I am not a doctor, all I can give is my limited experience.

My father suffered from emphysema. We had two of the finger pulse oximeters. They always read very close, if not the same, as the instruments used by the nurses taking his vitals. Fortunately Dad did not have circulatory problems, which certainly could cause differences from finger to finger or left hand, right hand.

Maybe we were just lucky in getting two different pulse oximeters that were reasonably accurate.
 
Bob Noel said:
I am not a doctor, all I can give is my limited experience.

My father suffered from emphysema. We had two of the finger pulse oximeters. They always read very close, if not the same, as the instruments used by the nurses taking his vitals. Fortunately Dad did not have circulatory problems, which certainly could cause differences from finger to finger or left hand, right hand.

Maybe we were just lucky in getting two different pulse oximeters that were reasonably accurate.
Click to expand...

I also suffer from mild emphysema, I also have two oxymeters. This morning, after reading your post, I tried putting one on each hand, they both read the same, 98/102 which has to be a first for me.

My left arm was crushed when I was two years old, all the arteries are pushed together on the inside of my upper arm, which could have something to do with my irregular readings I get from time to time. I was given a circulation test a few months ago and came out looking great.

Every year, OKC medical division makes me go through a whole battery of respiratory tests, which I keep passing, but they are expensive.

I've never used oxygen, and never felt like I needed it. After reading this thread, perhaps I will get a small tank. My Warrior doesn't go up all that high anyway, but it is still probably a good idea.

John
 
Artiom said:
What is TRW?
I see you are based at 0L7. Where is the good place to cross mountains on the way to Las Vegas?
Click to expand...

Old school, TRW, Thunderstorm with Rain shoWers.

I think you were heading for a good place to cross, Tehachipe or over Lake Isabella, but the fires there added to the complexity.
 
Artiom, I am 68" and 148 pounds, run a 6:45 mile, and I need O2 at night about EIGHT thousand, and days above 10,000 per oximetry.
ronnie said:
My point was that it is highly unlikely you were hypoxic at 9500 feet. I did not say it could not happen just not likely unless you have an underlying medical problem.
Click to expand...
I don't know where ronnie got his aeromedical science qualifications from, but....In reality, everyone is an individual and thinks their experience is what should be had by everyone else. Don't believe it for a minute.
 
John Baker said:
Take for example hyperventilation. The person suffering from hyperventilation is absolutely convinced they are not getting enough air, so they breath even harder and deeper, when in actuality, the opposite is true, which is why the treatment is to simply breath into a paper bag to increase the carbon dioxide intake an decrease the oxygen intake.
John
Click to expand...

It's important to mention here that it is possible to be hypoxic AND hyperventilate at the same time.

When you breathe in and out, oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange independently of each other.

In treating hyperventilation the purpose of the bag is to drive carbon dioxide levels back up to normal range. While it may happen as a consequence, the intent is not to lower oxygen content.

Hyperventilation usually causes chest pain and cramping. Hypoxia causes the above mentioned foggy mindedness. Both can occur at once.

It's not inappropriate to leave a cannula on at low flow while using said bag. Using a medical regulator for aviation use won't require more than 2 lpm flow, pretty low on the scale of things.

If we need to, I can break out the math to explain gas exchange and partial pressures of mixed gases. Doc probably could too if he was so inclined.

I've not worn oxygen when I've flown, but long hauls above 10k left me worn out with a headache - that's another thing hypoxia does to you. Never got above 8k at night.
 
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Bruce, you are the Doc so I guess you are correct. However, you do not post your sats at 10,000 feet. Also, I would not have thought sats change when the sun goes down. Shows how little I know. I know night vision suffers more with loss of O2 but most of us descend to a lower altitude before we land. I still do not believe the FAA would let the cabin altitude regs stand if pilots were passing out at 9500 feet of cabin altitude. I did not say the OP was not hypoxic, I said I believe there is another medical problem present. BWTHDIK, I am just a stupid pilot.
 
bbchien said:
Artiom, I am 68" and 148 pounds, run a 6:45 mile, and I need O2 at night about EIGHT thousand, and days above 10,000 per oximetry.
I don't know where ronnie got his aeromedical science qualifications from, but....In reality, everyone is an individual and thinks their experience is what should be had by everyone else. Don't believe it for a minute.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bruce!
I don't believe I have any medical issue but I will ask my doctor on the next check up - anyway we need something to talk about :D
As I look back I think John is right and it might be more physiological problem. I was traveling first time at high altitude and was planning to go higher. That was first time we left kids home and my first long XC. A lot of physiological factors plus I planned to borrow my friend's oxygen system and didn't do it. Next time I'm flying I will climb up to 10000' and take SpO2 measurements.
But regardless of that I will buy portable oxygen system even just for peace of mind.
 
BillTIZ said:
Old school, TRW, Thunderstorm with Rain shoWers.

I think you were heading for a good place to cross, Tehachipe or over Lake Isabella, but the fires there added to the complexity.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Will try again couple month later.
 
ronnieh said:
Bruce, you are the Doc so I guess you are correct. However, you do not post your sats at 10,000 feet. Also, I would not have thought sats change when the sun goes down. Shows how little I know. I know night vision suffers more with loss of O2 but most of us descend to a lower altitude before we land. I still do not believe the FAA would let the cabin altitude regs stand if pilots were passing out at 9500 feet of cabin altitude. I did not say the OP was not hypoxic, I said I believe there is another medical problem present. BWTHDIK, I am just a stupid pilot.
Click to expand...

Sats don't change with night versus day. Night vision and day vision use different imaging sensors, and night/low light vision degrades more for a given lowered oxygen level.

Ones physiology can play a major role, and different people react over a range of outcomes.

A person who sats 95% at sea level (which is acceptable) will probably have a lower sat at altitude than a person who sats 100% at sea level.

Old adage we use in medicine: treat the patient, not the monitor - if someone feels bad but their numbers are ok, they still feel bad.

Wether or not you have a pulseox, if you manifest symptoms of hypoxia you will benefit from supplemental oxygen. The pulse ox can help you gauge how much to use, but it's just a tool in the tool box, not the end all be all.
 
I appreciate the info here about O2 equipment, because I'd like to do more high altitude flying. My own experience with hypoxia is similar to those who report varied subjective experiences (no pulse oxymeter). I live at sea level and have sometimes noticed mild symptoms on airlines, and in unpressurized GA at >8kMSL. Other times I've flown at 13.5kMSL in our 172Q for 15 minutes without the slightest symptoms. When I've had symptoms, it has been after a long period living at sea level without high flight. But other times after long-term sea level I've done exactly the same with no symptoms. While PIC I do mental exercises, talk aloud to check my articulation, watch my nailbeds, and usually my earliest symptom is a feeling akin to half a beer on an empty stomach (I seldom drink).

One thing I haven't noticed mentioned is breathing technique. Experts here can probably disprove this, but what I've found effective is to briefly pause my climb and do counted breathing. Breathe in to a count of ten, hold ten, out ten, hold ten, repeat 3-5 times. Whether mythical, or IMO due to stress reduction and more effective O2/CO2 regulation, it has almost always worked in a minute or less. When it hasn't, I descend.
 
Bearing down slightly during your breath hold might be causing some collapsed/underutilized alveoli to be recruited.

I discount this method because it's a mental distraction. Having to think about breathing means you aren't focusing as much on flying. Might be fine straight and level. But might not be at night in rough weather over mountains (where you can't descend).
 
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