Pop up IFR and currency.

So I just had this vision of the future of GA where fees are required, where I as a VFR pilot flying into IMC and ask for a popup and when he asks if I am rated and current I say NO.
He will say that he needs a credit card number before he can provide the service because I won't be around to pay him later.
I can just see the NTSB report:
Pilot Error (maxed out credit card)
 
Dr. O said:
So I just had this vision of the future of GA where fees are required, where I as a VFR pilot flying into IMC and ask for a popup and when he asks if I am rated and current I say NO.
He will say that he needs a credit card number before he can provide the service because I won't be around to pay him later.
I can just see the NTSB report:
Pilot Error (maxed out credit card)
Click to expand...

Nah, it will be a typical government process. You will receive the bill for $5 and a $100 processing fee. If you aren't around, then your estate will get the bill. You just won't receive it on a Saturday... No mail on Saturdays headed our way.
 
I could see the kind of aircraft you are flying might influence a controllers decision about whether to ask or not. In a King Air, probably not. In a C-150, probably.
 
Ron Levy said:
:sigh: Not going to play with you today.
Click to expand...
Actually, the way I read Steven's posts, he is being quite consistent here. It sounds like he is saying that the policy is to ask if the plane and pilot are IFR qualified if the pilot requests radar assistance in the face of deteriorating weather, not if the pilot requests an IFR clearance.

If the pilot requests radar assistance, the form that assistance might take is unclear, and the controller needs to know if he can offer an IFR clearance. He cannot offer the clearance if either the ship or the pilot is unqualified. If the pilot requests an IFR clearance, then the onus is on the pilot to ensure he or she is qualified to accept it and the plane is capable.

Not saying that is TRUE (I have no idea where it is or not), but it seems to be what Steven is saying.
 
azure said:
Actually, the way I read Steven's posts, he is being quite consistent here. It sounds like he is saying that the policy is to ask if the plane and pilot are IFR qualified if the pilot requests radar assistance in the face of deteriorating weather, not if the pilot requests an IFR clearance.

If the pilot requests radar assistance, the form that assistance might take is unclear, and the controller needs to know if he can offer an IFR clearance. He cannot offer the clearance if either the ship or the pilot is unqualified. If the pilot requests an IFR clearance, then the onus is on the pilot to ensure he or she is qualified to accept it and the plane is capable.

Not saying that is TRUE (I have no idea where it is or not), but it seems to be what Steven is saying.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much it. You never have to ask a pilot that is requesting an IFR clearance if he is equipped and qualified for IFR flight. Pilots are expected to know the regulations. When a VFR aircraft is in weather trouble and a possible way out is an IFR clearance that the pilot has not requested, the controller must first determine that the pilot is equipped for and capable of operating under IFR.
 
somorris said:
I could see the kind of aircraft you are flying might influence a controllers decision about whether to ask or not. In a King Air, probably not. In a C-150, probably.
Click to expand...

And if you're in that C150 going "uhhhhhhh.... Center..... uhh Cessna 43DA we'd like to uhhh get through this layer here... uhhh pop up clearance please to uhhhhhhh ........ [airport with no approach] errrrr [airport with approach]" I imagine you'll get treated differently than "Center, Skyhawk 45GP like a pop up to [airport with approaches!] at 5,000"
 
azure said:
Actually, the way I read Steven's posts, he is being quite consistent here. It sounds like he is saying that the policy is to ask if the plane and pilot are IFR qualified if the pilot requests radar assistance in the face of deteriorating weather, not if the pilot requests an IFR clearance.
Click to expand...
And BradZ suggested that policy Steven quoted was the result of "some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance." I still say that speculated reasoning for the creation of that policy Steven quoted makes sense even if Steven lost track of the thread of the conversation and thought I was talking about something else.

But just in case it was too hard for others to follow, here's the string of posts:

Originally Posted by roncachamp
I'm a controller. The language referred to in the OP is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, Chapter 10 Emergencies, Section 2 Emergency Assistance, paragraph 10-2-8 Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft in Weather Difficulty:

"a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight."


Originally Posted by Brad Z
I believe the policy stems from some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance. I suspect the intent of the question is for the controller to determine if they should treat you as an emergency or not.

Originally Posted by Ron Levy
Now that makes sense.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
And BradZ suggested that policy Steven quoted was the result of "some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance." I still say that speculated reasoning for the creation of that policy Steven quoted makes sense even if Steven lost track of the thread of the conversation and thought I was talking about something else.

But just in case it was too hard for others to follow, here's the string of posts:

Originally Posted by roncachamp
I'm a controller. The language referred to in the OP is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, Chapter 10 Emergencies, Section 2 Emergency Assistance, paragraph 10-2-8 Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft in Weather Difficulty:

"a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight."


Originally Posted by Brad Z
I believe the policy stems from some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance. I suspect the intent of the question is for the controller to determine if they should treat you as an emergency or not.

Originally Posted by Ron Levy
Now that makes sense.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense.
 
Let's make it simple:

Steven: Here's the policy.
BradZ: This is my guess on why the policy was formulated.
Ron: BradZ's thinking makes sense.

Got it, Steven? Or am I being obtuse?
 
Ron Levy said:
Let's make it simple:

Steven: Here's the policy.
BradZ: This is my guess on why the policy was formulated.
Ron: BradZ's thinking makes sense.

Got it, Steven? Or am I being obtuse?
Click to expand...

The problem is you're trying to teach when you should be trying to learn.
 
Ron Levy said:
And BradZ suggested that policy Steven quoted was the result of "some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance." I still say that speculated reasoning for the creation of that policy Steven quoted makes sense even if Steven lost track of the thread of the conversation and thought I was talking about something else.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone lost track of the conversation, it's just that people have different interpretations of the paragraph Steven quoted. BradZ's explanation for the policy would only make sense if the policy actually did direct controllers to make sure that pilots requesting a pop-up IFR clearance were IFR qualified, since otherwise it wouldn't do a thing to prevent unqualified pilots from bluffing their way into the system. Since Steven says that is NOT the policy, I don't see anything going on here except you're both talking past each other.

I'll say that I used to think that controllers were supposed to ask that in any situation where the pilot's name and contact info were not already on record. That's why I was a little surprised when clearance delivery at KPTK gave me what was essentially a "pop-up IFR clearance" on the ground, i.e. an abbreviated flight plan with only aircraft type/suffix, destination, and desired altitude. But then again I wasn't a VFR aircraft encountering IFR conditions, so maybe it was a bad example from the get-go.

Of course if Steven is correct, controllers who challenge VFR aircraft asking for a pop-up clearance are either doing it on their own, or following some local policy other than what's in JO 7110.65.
 
Last edited:
azure said:
I'll say that I used to think that controllers were supposed to ask that in any situation where the pilot's name and contact info were not already on record. That's why I was a little surprised when clearance delivery at KPTK gave me what was essentially a "pop-up IFR clearance" on the ground, i.e. an abbreviated flight plan with only aircraft type/suffix, destination, and desired altitude. But then again I wasn't a VFR aircraft encountering IFR conditions, so maybe it was a bad example from the get-go.
Click to expand...
There's a big difference between a "pop-up" IFR clearance to an aircraft in flight, and an abbreviated IFR flight plan request while still on the ground.

Of course if Steven is correct, controllers who challenge VFR aircraft asking for a pop-up clearance are either doing it on their own, or following some local policy other than what's in JO 7110.65.
Click to expand...
After first quoting the policy from 7110.65, Steven is now talking about routine pop-up IFR requests, to which that policy does not apply. BradZ and I are talking about the situation covered by the section of 7110.65 which Steven quoted, to wit, "a VFR aircraft request[ing] radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions." In tht situation, a controller asking that question is doing what the book calls for. OTOH, a controller applying that policy to routine IFR pop-ups is probably the victim of negative training transfer by incorrectly applying the policy for one situation to a similar but different situation.

And BradZ's guess about why that policy to cover the VFR aircraft requesting weather-related assistance exists seems quite logical to me even if it does not to Steven.

Alles klar?
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
There's a big difference between a "pop-up" IFR clearance to an aircraft in flight, and an abbreviated IFR flight plan request while still on the ground.
Click to expand...
Apparently so.
After first quoting the policy from 7110.65, Steven is now talking about routine pop-up IFR requests, to which that policy does not apply.
Click to expand...
But that's the point, I don't think he is talking only about routine pop-up requests. He's saying that the interpretation of paragraph 10-2-8 that you and BradZ are going by is wrong. According to Steven, the policy does NOT tell controllers to ask about qualifications if a VFR pilot encountering deteriorating weather specifically requests an IFR clearance, only when the nature of the requested assistance is unclear and the controller needs to know if he can OFFER a clearance as a way out.
Alles klar?
Click to expand...
Not really. It all hinges on what "requests radar assistance" means in the context of the order. You have a real disagreement about that and Steven is talking to everyone but you about it (true to form), but he's not changing the subject.
 
I've received a few "pop up" clearances, but I have been asked only once by ATC if I was qualified and equipped for IFR. However, when I received that query I had not requested IFR clearance or any kind of assistance.

I was VFR into CDW, in Class B and being serviced by NY TRACON. The conversation went something like this:

NY TRACON- Fly heading 330
Me- That heading will put me in clouds
NY TRACON- Are you qualified and equipped for IFR?
Me- Affirmative
NY TRACON- Fly heading 330, when in the clouds maintain IFR, when out of the clouds maintain VFR.
Me- Heading 330

Not making this up, most efficient clearance I ever got.
 
Not sure why we're discussing when a controller asks if a pilot is qualified and aircraft is capable for IFR. I've done a gazillion Abreviated IFR Flight Plans (pop up) at In the Army and never once asked if I was qualified and capable. Partially that has to do with the controllers already know a UH-60 and it's crew are capable, but the fact is its just a request for training. It's the easiest way of doing IFR training without having to do all the red tape of planning and filing on the ground. Like i said it really shows how easy and flexible the ATC system can be. I look up, see that if we go 500 ft higher (alt for the IAF) I can get my student/examinee some valuable instrument time, then I ask for a clearance to the airport and to pick up an instrument approach. Very important to clarify you'd like to pick up an IFR clearance as well. I've had controllers treat me as VFR doing a practice approach and vectoring me towards clouds without clearing me to the airport. A much more important discussion than what we are talking about above. Simply because they are vectoring you for an approach doesn't mean you're now on an IFR clearance and approved to go IMC.

Now if I'm flying around VFR and never had the intention of executing an instrument approach but yet I'm in a weather situation where I can no longer fly or I just went IIMC, then I fall under the Ch10 Emergency rules in the 7110.65. If I'm equipped and qualified then it's a simple matter of picking up a clearance. If the pilot isn't qualified then you have a bonafide emergency and it will be handled as I described above. The whole trying to keep a secret and "fake" an IFR qualification is silly. That goes along with the popular misconception of declaring an emergency requires paperwork and notification to someone important in the FAA food chain. There is no paperwork on either side. In the controller side it consists on the approach controller writing a big red E on your strip and the radar sup logging it on his record. NOTHING COMES OF THIS! You didn't violate any FARs and didn't delay any other aircraft around you, ATC didn't say submit a written report, then you're good to go. I once declared an emergency with both approach and center and never heard a word from it later. Some of you out there have had the controller either declare an emergency on you or simply treat your situation as an emergency and you probably never even knew about it. It's a non event, so don't worry about it.

So it doesn't matter if the controller asks or not. Steven has a valid reference for his case so he is correct that a controller doesn't have to ask for a routine "pop up" IFR clearance. If your controller asks you, then it's either habit or they simply don't understand ch10 in the 7110.65.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
Now if I'm flying around VFR and never had the intention of executing an instrument approach but yet I'm in a weather situation where I can no longer fly or I just went IIMC, then I fall under the Ch10 Emergency rules in the 7110.65. If I'm equipped and qualified then it's a simple matter of picking up a clearance.
Click to expand...
Okay then, just for clarity: if I'm flying VFR (but am IFR qualified) and I'm about to enter or just entered IMC, and I ask the controller for an IFR clearance, is the controller required to ask if I'm IFR qualified? Or have I essentially told the controller that I'm qualified by asking for the clearance?
So it doesn't matter if the controller asks or not. Steven has a valid reference for his case so he is correct that a controller doesn't have to ask for a routine "pop up" IFR clearance. If your controller asks you, then it's either habit or they simply don't understand ch10 in the 7110.65.
Click to expand...
What about in non-routine cases that would be emergencies if the pilot isn't IFR qualified, but the pilot specifically asks for the clearance?
 
azure said:
Okay then, just for clarity: if I'm flying VFR (but am IFR qualified) and I'm about to enter or just entered IMC, and I ask the controller for an IFR clearance, is the controller required to ask if I'm IFR qualified? Or have I essentially told the controller that I'm qualified by asking for the clearance?

What about in non-routine cases that would be emergencies if the pilot isn't IFR qualified, but the pilot specifically asks for the clearance?
Click to expand...

It's all about communication. 1. "approach, N12345 cannot maintain VFR, request IFR clearance to nearest airport." this is under the situation in ch10 of the 7110.65. The controller will then ask if your qualified and capable. If so then they'll clear you. If your so jacked up the controller will fill you in on any approaches or other pertinent information for the airport. That's not a formal job of a controller but as I said I was required to have all approaches memorized for my airspace. 2. "Approach, N12345 just went IIMC, request IFR clearance to the nearest airport." Well now you're definitely an emergency and if you were in controlled airspace you just violated the FARs as well. The controller will ask the golden question again and if qualified and equipped will issue the clearance. In both cases if not qualified or equipped, they'll still issue the clearance but they'll use special precautions like I described 2 posts ago.

If you're out VFR training and your IFR qualified and equipped but you need an instrument approach for training you simply say "approach, N12345 would like to pick up an IFR to xyz to do the practice approach ILS rwy 6." This situation is simple. The pilot never said anything about wx problems they want to do the approach and want to be cleared IFR. As I said that's the biggest thing is making sure approach knows its IFR. I did an ASR approach VFR about a month ago and approach never cleared me to the airport and never assigned any altitude. I was VFR the whole time but since it was to the primary airport of a class C they provide standard IFR separation. If at any time his vectors took me to the clouds (even if qualified and rated) I need to let the controller know.

Hopefully that clears up the controller ch10 question. Here's a bonus question up for debate. I brought up earlier about being below the MVA and the controller asking if the pilot can maintain terrain and obstruction clearance from present altitude until reaching the MVA. This is a standard response to a pilot requesting a "pop up" IFR below the MVA. If you say yes to the question, does this mean you have to maintain VMC until reaching that MVA???
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
It's all about communication. 1. "approach, N12345 cannot maintain VFR, request IFR clearance to nearest airport." this is under the situation in ch10 of the 7110.65. The controller will then ask if your qualified and capable.
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks for the clarification -- but if I'm reading Steven correctly, he's saying the 7110.65 doesn't require the controller to ask that, since the pilot isn't asking for some nonspecific "radar assistance" but specifically a clearance which he shouldn't be asking for if he's not qualified to operate IFR.
2. "Approach, N12345 just went IIMC, request IFR clearance to the nearest airport." Well now you're definitely an emergency and if you were in controlled airspace you just violated the FARs as well.
Click to expand...
Yep, definitely not something you want on the tapes. It's just like if a controller asks you for a pirep on the cloud bases and you're VFR in Class E underneath, the correct answer is NEVER less than 500 feet above your altitude (and no, I'm not saying you should lie either).

Hopefully that clears up the controller ch10 question. Here's a bonus question up for debate. I brought up earlier about being below the MVA and the controller asking if the pilot can maintain terrain and obstruction clearance from present altitude until reaching the MVA. This is a standard response to a pilot requesting a "pop up" IFR below the MVA. If you say yes to the question, does this mean you have to maintain VMC until reaching that MVA???
Click to expand...
Oooh, interesting question. I think this was discussed here a while ago and the answer was no, because you're being treated as IFR once you say you accept responsibility to not hit anything. I would think the answer depends on whether you've been given a clearance limit. If I enter the soup and then lose comms but don't yet have a clearance limit, how do I comply with 91.185?
 
azure said:
Okay, thanks for the clarification -- but if I'm reading Steven correctly, he's saying the 7110.65 doesn't require the controller to ask that, since the pilot isn't asking for some nonspecific "radar assistance" but specifically a clearance which he shouldn't be asking for if he's not qualified to operate IFR.

Yep, definitely not something you want on the tapes. It's just like if a controller asks you for a pirep on the cloud bases and you're VFR in Class E underneath, the correct answer is NEVER less than 500 feet above your altitude (and no, I'm not saying you should lie either).


Oooh, interesting question. I think this was discussed here a while ago and the answer was no, because you're being treated as IFR once you say you accept responsibility to not hit anything. I would think the answer depends on whether you've been given a clearance limit. If I enter the soup and then lose comms but don't yet have a clearance limit, how do I comply with 91.185?
Click to expand...

Well I won't speak for Steven on that. All I'll say if a VFR pilot is in the clouds and they didn't file IFR, I don't care if they request a vector for VMC or request an IFR clearance. They are still requesting radar assistant from ATC and I would ask them if they are qualified and capable. Think of it this way. You got a guy boxed in who initially requests service to maintain VMC. I vector him to an area where i believe is VMC. It doesnt work. Is he to land in the middle of the woods? No, he and I have exhuasted our options and the only thing left is to commit to an IMC recovery. When he says in despair "N12345 i guess i need to get a clearance for an instrument approach" , i definitely wouldn't assume he's qualified and capable. Ask the question. It could mean the difference between an easy IFR clearance, or getting the supervisors attention and clearing the radar room of all non essential personel.

Clear cut answer. If a pilot requests an approach with no mention of weather, don't ask the question. If a pilot mentions bad weather and requests any sort of assistance, ask the question. It's all about clear communication. Here's tthings thing, the few times I've seen it happen on approach you know what the answer is even before asking the question. Trust me, when you hear some guy with his voice shaking "approach, N12345 is VFR and I need help to find VMC or a clearance into IMC" you already know from their voice that they're screwed and need assistance IAW ch10 of the 7110.65.

Oh yeah good answer on the bonus question. Your reference is in the 7110.65 4-28 D 1. Far too many pilots will say you have to maintain VMC until the MVA. But how would you know if you can maintain terrain/obstruction clearance if you're in the clouds??? :wink2:
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
There's a big difference between a "pop-up" IFR clearance to an aircraft in flight, and an abbreviated IFR flight plan request while still on the ground.
Click to expand...

That big difference being one request is made while airborne, the other while on the ground.

After first quoting the policy from 7110.65, Steven is now talking about routine pop-up IFR requests, to which that policy does not apply. BradZ and I are talking about the situation covered by the section of 7110.65 which Steven quoted, to wit, "a VFR aircraft request[ing] radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions."
Click to expand...

Wrong. BradZ wrote; "I believe the policy stems from some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance." That's still a request by the pilot for an IFR clearance, the policy of asking a pilot if he's equipped for and capable of IFR flight applies only when the pilot does not request an IFR clearance.

And BradZ's guess about why that policy to cover the VFR aircraft requesting weather-related assistance exists seems quite logical to me even if it does not to Steven.
Click to expand...

If you actually allowed logic to influence your thought process you could not hold the positions that you espouse in this forum.
 
azure said:
But that's the point, I don't think he is talking only about routine pop-up requests. He's saying that the interpretation of paragraph 10-2-8 that you and BradZ are going by is wrong. According to Steven, the policy does NOT tell controllers to ask about qualifications if a VFR pilot encountering deteriorating weather specifically requests an IFR clearance, only when the nature of the requested assistance is unclear and the controller needs to know if he can OFFER a clearance as a way out.
Click to expand...

'Zackly.
 
vintage cessna said:
I've received a few "pop up" clearances, but I have been asked only once by ATC if I was qualified and equipped for IFR. However, when I received that query I had not requested IFR clearance or any kind of assistance.

I was VFR into CDW, in Class B and being serviced by NY TRACON. The conversation went something like this:

NY TRACON- Fly heading 330
Me- That heading will put me in clouds
NY TRACON- Are you qualified and equipped for IFR?
Me- Affirmative
NY TRACON- Fly heading 330, when in the clouds maintain IFR, when out of the clouds maintain VFR.
Me- Heading 330

Not making this up, most efficient clearance I ever got.
Click to expand...

Efficient? Maybe, but it does not meet the requirements of an IFR clearance.
 
azure said:
Okay then, just for clarity: if I'm flying VFR (but am IFR qualified) and I'm about to enter or just entered IMC, and I ask the controller for an IFR clearance, is the controller required to ask if I'm IFR qualified?
Click to expand...

Negative.

Or have I essentially told the controller that I'm qualified by asking for the clearance?
Click to expand...

Affirmative.

What about in non-routine cases that would be emergencies if the pilot isn't IFR qualified, but the pilot specifically asks for the clearance?
Click to expand...

The controller can't see your certificate or instrument panel. A pilot that requests an IFR clearance is assumed to be equipped for and capable of operating under IFR. Doesn't matter if the request for clearance is made on the ground or in the air, doesn't matter if the pilot has already filed a flight plan or not.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
It's all about communication. 1. "approach, N12345 cannot maintain VFR, request IFR clearance to nearest airport." this is under the situation in ch10 of the 7110.65. The controller will then ask if your qualified and capable. If so then they'll clear you.
Click to expand...

Ehh? The situation in paragraph 10-2-8 is a VFR aircraft requesting radar assistance when the pilot is about to encounter IFR weather conditions.

Hopefully that clears up the controller ch10 question. Here's a bonus question up for debate. I brought up earlier about being below the MVA and the controller asking if the pilot can maintain terrain and obstruction clearance from present altitude until reaching the MVA. This is a standard response to a pilot requesting a "pop up" IFR below the MVA. If you say yes to the question, does this mean you have to maintain VMC until reaching that MVA???
Click to expand...

No. Note that that question is required when the controller is aware that the pilot is unable to climb in VFR conditions to the minimum IFR altitude. Many controllers will ask it every time a pilot asks for a pop up while below the MIA.
 
roncachamp said:
The controller can't see your certificate or instrument panel. A pilot that requests an IFR clearance is assumed to be equipped for and capable of operating under IFR. Doesn't matter if the request for clearance is made on the ground in the air, doesn't matter if the pilot has already filed a flight plan or not.
Click to expand...
Yes, I had little doubt that would be your position on the matter. I was asking Mcfly, who seems to have a different take on the whole issue. And if our two controllers on this board (at least 2 out of 3 anyway, I think there's one other but am not sure if she posts here or on the RB) can't agree on the meaning of the paragraph, it seems pretty likely that other controllers are going to have different interpretations too.

No. Note that that question is required when the controller is aware that the pilot is unable to climb in VFR conditions to the minimum IFR altitude. Many controllers will ask it every time a pilot asks for a pop up while below the MIA.
Click to expand...
One time when my first CFII and I were going out after dark to shoot approaches, we filed on the ground and picked up in the air (i.e. not a pop-up), and we were still asked that question. Conditions were CAVU, though it was dark and there is a known antenna farm (multiple 1000 AGL obstacles) in our general direction of flight.
 
Velocity173 said:
Think of it this way. You got a guy boxed in who initially requests service to maintain VMC. I vector him to an area where i believe is VMC. It doesnt work. Is he to land in the middle of the woods? No, he and I have exhuasted our options and the only thing left is to commit to an IMC recovery. When he says in despair "N12345 i guess i need to get a clearance for an instrument approach" , i definitely wouldn't assume he's qualified and capable.
Click to expand...
Oh sure, but you're adding facts to the scenario that would put a reasonable doubt in anyone's mind about whether the pilot could legally operate IFR. There was nothing in my scenario about having exhausted all other options. The question was, a pilot is flying VFR and announces that he is headed for IMC or will soon be IMC if he continues on present heading, and asks for an IFR clearance. With no other information about that pilot, do you ask if he's qualified or not before giving him the clearance?
 
Velocity173 said:
Oh yeah good answer on the bonus question. Your reference is in the 7110.65 4-28 D 1. Far too many pilots will say you have to maintain VMC until the MVA. But how would you know if you can maintain terrain/obstruction clearance if you're in the clouds??? :wink2:
Click to expand...
My thinking is, if conditions are so low you can't maintain terrain/obstruction clearance visually up to the MIA, then you have no business being there trying to get a pop-up. You're scud running. :nono: You should have filed and picked up your IFR clearance on the ground, with a void time if necessary, and followed the ODP.

If you're there anyway, for whatever reason, I would imagine the controller has to treat you as an emergency.
 
azure said:
My thinking is, if conditions are so low you can't maintain terrain/obstruction clearance visually up to the MIA, then you have no business being there trying to get a pop-up. You're scud running. :nono: You should have filed and picked up your IFR clearance on the ground, with a void time if necessary, and followed the ODP.

If you're there anyway, for whatever reason, I would imagine the controller has to treat you as an emergency.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't, I'd just give him a clearance. Unless the pilot foolishly told me he's unable to climb in VFR conditions to the MIA I'd have no reason to ask him if he is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during that climb.
 
azure said:
Yep, definitely not something you want on the tapes. It's just like if a controller asks you for a pirep on the cloud bases and you're VFR in Class E underneath, the correct answer is NEVER less than 500 feet above your altitude (and no, I'm not saying you should lie either).
Click to expand...

If it's a broken or scattered layer and you've just climbed up or descended through a hole, it seems practical and legal to give a base report equal to or below your altitude. I've done that many times.
 
azure said:
Oh sure, but you're adding facts to the scenario that would put a reasonable doubt in anyone's mind about whether the pilot could legally operate IFR. There was nothing in my scenario about having exhausted all other options. The question was, a pilot is flying VFR and announces that he is headed for IMC or will soon be IMC if he continues on present heading, and asks for an IFR clearance. With no other information about that pilot, do you ask if he's qualified or not before giving him the clearance?
Click to expand...

Well I guess that's where I disagree with Steven. What you described meets both requirements. 1. The aircraft is about to enter IMC. 2. The aircraft requests radar assistance. Are we saying requesting a clearance isn't requesting radar assistance??? I'm VFR and about to enter the clouds, what other choice do I have? Would you not get cleared to the first available airport? I suppose it depends on the aircraft because in helicopters we're taught to land. If I'm fixedwing, I might very well take my chances with the clouds instead of trying to land on a populated or a wooded area.

Here's how most likely your above scenario would go down. "approach, N12345 can no longer maintain VMC and I am about to enter IMC".
"Roger N12345, say your intentions?"
"Ah N12345 I'm gonna need a clearance."
"Roger Cessna 345, understand you and your aircraft are qualified and capable for IFR?"

It takes three seconds to ask that question so why not ask it and immediately clarify what we're dealing with? If Steven doesn't want to ask it then fine. He has a heck of a lot more ATC experience than me.

One of the things we are forgetting is the pilot's responsibility in this. Maybe this is just me but if I'm out flying VFR and I am about to enter IMC, I'm going to do a combo. "Approach N12345 cannot maintain VMC, like to pick up a clearance, I'm qualified and capable for IFR." like I said its about communications. Get out what needs to be known in a clear concise manner. If you play I've got a secret, no one benefits from that.

Update: I posed the question to my brother (current controller of 25 yr ATC). I asked if a VFR guy went IIMC and asked for a clearance, he'd automatically assume he's qualified and capable and would NOT ask the question.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
Here's how most likely your above scenario would go down. "approach, N12345 can no longer maintain VMC and I am about to enter IMC".
"Roger N12345, say your intentions?"
"Ah N12345 I'm gonna need a clearance."
"Roger Cessna 345, understand you and your aircraft are qualified and capable for IFR?"
Click to expand...
Yep, and that's how it went down when I was shooting approaches under VFR with my CFII and the field went IFR due to snowfall limiting visibility. I asked for a clearance and was challenged. I wasn't playing 20 questions, wasn't keeping secrets (no need to -- my CFII was there), we were qualified, ceilings were fairly high, no risk of icing, it was the most logical thing to do, as opposed to requesting a SVFR clearance that would have expired as soon as we left the Class D surface area. It just never occurred to me to include qualifications along with my request. I'm not sure if my CFII was expecting the question or not, as we never discussed that part of the training session afterward.

One of the things we are forgetting is the pilot's responsibility in this. Maybe this is just me but if I'm out flying VFR and I am about to enter IMC, I'm going to do a combo. "Approach N12345 cannot maintain VMC, like to pick up a clearance, I'm qualified and capable for IFR." like I said its about communications. Get out what needs to be known in a clear concise manner. If you play I've got a secret, no one benefits from that.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends whose airspace you're in, eh? If I'm in your airspace, I'd better add my qualifications if I want that pop-up, but if I'm in Steven's, why bother?

A couple of weeks ago I was on my way to a PoA meetup in Indiana, getting beat up beneath a thin layer and dreaming of a smooth ride on top. I'm very afraid of ice so I decided to grin and bear it, but suppose I had said, "Approach, it's pretty rough down here under this deck, I'd like to go the rest of the way IFR if you could give me 6000, would that be possible?" Would you have asked me if I was IFR capable? What if I'd added that I didn't like the snow spritzes I was seeing and was concerned about visibility? (Actually they were widely scattered and not a real issue, but hypothetically speaking now...)
 
Velocity173 said:
Well I guess that's where I disagree with Steven. What you described meets both requirements. 1. The aircraft is about to enter IMC. 2. The aircraft requests radar assistance. Are we saying requesting a clearance isn't requesting radar assistance??? I'm VFR and about to enter the clouds, what other choice do I have? Would you not get cleared to the first available airport? I suppose it depends on the aircraft because in helicopters we're taught to land. If I'm fixedwing, I might very well take my chances with the clouds instead of trying to land on a populated or a wooded area.
Click to expand...

Requesting an IFR clearance is not requesting radar assistance. There, I said it. If the aircraft is already radar identified a clearance may be issued that includes radar vectors, but the request for clearance may also come from an aircraft that is not radar identified or not even in an area with radar coverage at the altitude it is operating.
 
azure said:
Yep, and that's how it went down when I was shooting approaches under VFR with my CFII and the field went IFR due to snowfall limiting visibility. I asked for a clearance and was challenged. I wasn't playing 20 questions, wasn't keeping secrets (no need to -- my CFII was there), we were qualified, ceilings were fairly high, no risk of icing, it was the most logical thing to do, as opposed to requesting a SVFR clearance that would have expired as soon as we left the Class D surface area. It just never occurred to me to include qualifications along with my request. I'm not sure if my CFII was expecting the question or not, as we never discussed that part of the training session afterward.


I guess it depends whose airspace you're in, eh? If I'm in your airspace, I'd better add my qualifications if I want that pop-up, but if I'm in Steven's, why bother?

A couple of weeks ago I was on my way to a PoA meetup in Indiana, getting beat up beneath a thin layer and dreaming of a smooth ride on top. I'm very afraid of ice so I decided to grin and bear it, but suppose I had said, "Approach, it's pretty rough down here under this deck, I'd like to go the rest of the way IFR if you could give me 6000, would that be possible?" Would you have asked me if I was IFR capable? What if I'd added that I didn't like the snow spritzes I was seeing and was concerned about visibility? (Actually they were widely scattered and not a real issue, but hypothetically speaking now...)
Click to expand...

No need to add qualifications. Just my technique of speeding the process and making sure the controller has a clear picture of my situation.

So here's the thing. We're saying if a VFR guy is in the clouds requests a clearance to the nearest airport, it's assumed he is qualified and capable. But if a VFR guy that's in the clouds requests vectors to the nearest airport, now that's radar assistance and the controller must ask the question??? At some point those vectors will take the aircraft to a point where the controller has to clear the aircraft for an instrument approach. He'll definitely be on an IFR clearance at that point. I guess we should teach VFR students that if they're ever IMC to never ask for a clearance to an airport. You have to ask for vectors to an airport because then you're not technically being cleared to the airport. After all that you'll magically do an instrument approach without a clearance as well.


Your question at 6,000? No I won't ask because you never said you were IMC or about to enter IMC. You know what though, I wouldn't be surprise if a controller did ask you.

I think we're all forgetting one thing. The reference for asking the question falls under ch10 in the .65. EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE. Azure is your situation at 6,000 an emergency? Doesn't sound like it to me. The example of a VFR rated or even an IFR rated pilot in IMC without a clearance I would consider an emergency. In that type of weather emergency, as a controller I would want to know what kind of a pilot and aircraft capabilities I'm dealing with. Just my opinion.
 
Velocity173 said:
I think we're all forgetting one thing. The reference for asking the question falls under ch10 in the .65. EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE. Azure is your situation at 6,000 an emergency? Doesn't sound like it to me. The example of a VFR rated or even an IFR rated pilot in IMC without a clearance I would consider an emergency. In that type of weather emergency, as a controller I would want to know what kind of a pilot and aircraft capabilities I'm dealing with. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I think we're forgetting the OP:
saracelica said:
Hope I don't annoy with too many IR questions.

So did 1.8 training under the hood last night. :)

At one point my CFII called up approach and said "Need to file for Pop up IFR" Evidentally there was a cloud layer over the airport, I'm not sure since I was under the hood. Anyway in a few minutes we got vectored to the VOR and used the "magic magenta line writer machine" and flew the approach in.

I feel like I heard on those "Never again stories" that when people call up ATC for IFR vectors or Pop up IFR they ask if the pilot is current IFR. Is that only when the pilot is struggling to follow directions?

Just like PPL I'm hooked with figuring out this IFR thing as well.
Click to expand...

Is a cloud layer between you and your destination an emergency? Doesn't sound like it to me.
 
roncachamp said:
I think we're forgetting the OP:


Is a cloud layer between you and your destination an emergency? Doesn't sound like it to me.
Click to expand...

Oh Steven you know we've gone way past what the original post is about. I already said that I agree with you on that situation.

To me it's not a big deal. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter if a guy is solid IMC and requests a clearance to an airport or requests vectors to an airport. I would consider them to be in an emergency, requesting assistance, and i would want to know if they are qualified and capable. I guess I just don't automatically assume that all VFR rated pilots are taught to never, ever, ask for a clearance if you go IIMC. To each his own.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top