bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
I refuse any GM model that is dependent on a "crankshaft position sensor". Whaddaya do when that is no longer available?
Winchestervergnugen.
Winchestervergnugen.
Poor support from Garmin
- Thread starter AcroBoy
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rotorhead1026
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Indeed, some real competition for Garmin would solve a lot of this.
JGoodish
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JGoodish
It may not make a difference to you as a consumer, but it is reality. Electronics manufacturers in EVERY industry deal with support issues with retired parts all the time. The difference is that, in many cases, manufacturers in other industries can substitute new parts without an onerous (and costly) certification process. If Garmin rectified old units with new parts, imagine what the new units and repairs would cost. It's already outrageous to begin with, and despite what you might think, it isn't Garmin's fault.
I've been reading about the new Avidyne unit designed to compete with Garmin's GNS series, which is nice. The prices I've seen are $8-10k. Still outrageous for what's in the box.
The high cost of modern avionics and the guaranteed short lifespan is the biggest reason why I've been reluctant to invest in them. I can't imagine owning an airplane with glass, especially with no deductible business purpose for it.
I also don't like the trend of no field repairs. If something goes wrong and the factory says they can't fix it, it's a paperweight. That makes investing in modern panel avionics quite an expensive risk for many folks.
JKG
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yeah, but they and the aftermarket can re-design a simple sensor with today's parts without needing to have the whole thing re-certified by a 3rd party. And the sensor's inputs and outputs can be copied by any third party willing to make one without a patent, copyright, or licensing lawsuit. So far, anyway.
The auto manufacturers tried to go that route, and Congress mandated OBD standardization. That technology quickly went from "only dealers have it" to a $20 code scanner from China.
Auto manufacturers even go out of their way to use standardized data bus protocols which may carry proprietary data, but they haven't (yet) started playing the games that say, Motorola does, where they Copyright and license the serial stream format itself to lock out the ability to reverse-engineer the data and build a product that plugs into a Motorola radio interface port. Serial data is serial data, but you can't build a product that talks serial to a Motorola radio without buying licensing to plug into the serial port.
You want to take the time and effort to figure out the data format, you can use it, in most automotive applications. The manufacturer will just say "not supported" and move on.
But the product still comes to market.
If an avionics company says "not supported", the FAA backs them up and indirectly helps them maintain their monopoly by saying, "not certified".
L.Adamson
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L.Adamson
With billions, and years of R&D............anything is possible.
In the meantime, for innovation, and products that work well.....Garmin is way up there. Just talk to the people that actually have spent years installing aviation equipment for opinions.
L.Adamson
peter-h
Line Up and Wait
If you want to blame somebody for the present monopoly situation, blame Honeywell for taking over Bendix-King and killing it, and handing the market to Garmin on a plate.
Speaking as an electronics hardware/software developer, Garmin have done IMHO very little innovation during the 13 years I have been flying. Just the occassional new box here and there, with small incremental improvements. And milking every product for all they can. A GNS430[W] costs about $300 to make...
Look at what Honeywell did. They probably thought people will keep buying the KX155 radios for ever. Or maybe just everybody at King left (mostly for Garmin?) as soon as Honeywell (from what I hear, a very political and nasty to work for company, internally) took over. Zero innovation and zero new product introduction for more than 10 years. No wonder there is nobody left in there to sort out the KFC225 autopilot servos
But it was Honeywell who gave Garmin a free run.
Speaking as an electronics hardware/software developer, Garmin have done IMHO very little innovation during the 13 years I have been flying. Just the occassional new box here and there, with small incremental improvements. And milking every product for all they can. A GNS430[W] costs about $300 to make...
Look at what Honeywell did. They probably thought people will keep buying the KX155 radios for ever. Or maybe just everybody at King left (mostly for Garmin?) as soon as Honeywell (from what I hear, a very political and nasty to work for company, internally) took over. Zero innovation and zero new product introduction for more than 10 years. No wonder there is nobody left in there to sort out the KFC225 autopilot servos
But it was Honeywell who gave Garmin a free run.
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rotorhead1026
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rotorhead1026
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n12365
Pre-takeoff checklist
In the USA, only California has rules similar to RoHS. Europe, China, and several other countries have similar rules on hazardous substances, so almost all chip manufacturers have stopped using those chemicals. The electronics market is global, so RoHS is becoming the norm, even for items only sold in the USA. Lead is the main chemical, but RoHS also includes mercury, cadmium and a couple other chemicals I can't remember.
When the rules were announced, the industry fought it and complained about not being able to meet the requirements, but I haven't experienced any problems using RoHS parts in the boards that I design.
Ryan
peter-h
Line Up and Wait
Lead free soldering requires a higher temperature and the yield is lower, which translates into having to be more careful with the process.
The practical side of ROHS, and now REACH, is that the big companies force all suppliers to sign statements confirming that they do not use any of a huge list of ~ 100 chemicals, but it is totally impossible to verify this all the way up the supply chain, so everybody just signs the stuff and gets on with their life. From China, you can buy toilet rolls which are ROHS compliant.
However there are exemptions for repair of old kit, so Garmin not repairing stuff past a certain gate is just a commercial decision.
It may, at a stretch, be a component availability issue, but their boxes are AFAIK 80x86 based and they must have taken measures to assure continuity for all their cash cows (i.e. not using PC chipsets for the peripherals ). Nothing that Garmin make requires any serious processing power.
The practical side of ROHS, and now REACH, is that the big companies force all suppliers to sign statements confirming that they do not use any of a huge list of ~ 100 chemicals, but it is totally impossible to verify this all the way up the supply chain, so everybody just signs the stuff and gets on with their life. From China, you can buy toilet rolls which are ROHS compliant.
However there are exemptions for repair of old kit, so Garmin not repairing stuff past a certain gate is just a commercial decision.
It may, at a stretch, be a component availability issue, but their boxes are AFAIK 80x86 based and they must have taken measures to assure continuity for all their cash cows (i.e. not using PC chipsets for the peripherals
). Nothing that Garmin make requires any serious processing power.JGoodish
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JGoodish
Honeywell did not buy Bendix/King. Allied Signal bought Bendix/King, and Honeywell sometime later acquired Allied Signal. However, none of that matters. If it was easier for newcomers to enter the market for "certified" avionics, we'd have more competition. It's regulation (in combination with the very small aviation market) that principally restricts competition in this case.
A GNS430W may contain $300 in parts, but that doesn't accurately reflect Garmin's cost to "make" it. There is R&D, labor, marketing, etc. that all factor into the cost of a product. And then you have the huge burden, certification, and the fact that those costs have to be covered by selling into a very, very small market.
I'm not necessarily a Garmin lover, but I have to say that their products for the most part are well design and high quality, which are not the marks of a company whose intent is to pillage the consumer. I think that competition would put pressure on Garmin's prices somewhat, but until you have someone with an equivalent (or better) product selling it for half off or more, I don't think that pressure would be significant.
JKG
peter-h
Line Up and Wait
IMHO, if Aspen delivered a high quality version of their product, Garmin would just buy the company.
OK, but I reckon the changing company culture was what caused everybody with a brain to depart.
OK, but I reckon the changing company culture was what caused everybody with a brain to depart.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
A quick google search of "l. Adamson garmin" reveals that you're not just here defending Garmin but, in fact, it appears that you're also doing so on other boards in cyber space.
Curious...how well does that pay? What's the title on the business card? "Director of cyber misinformation and defense"?
As an aside, you're doing a fantastic job and deserve a raise!
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What do you expect when people want their avionics package on their iPad claiming it's better and all they need/want?All aviation is in the same boat being driven by consumer electronics.
Cheers
denverpilot
Tied Down
What do you expect when people want their avionics package on their iPad claiming it's better and all they need/want?
I definitely don't say that. I want it in the panel, allowed to be used for any type of flight, and inexpensive, just like automobiles.
X3 Skier
En-Route
What do you expect when people want their avionics package on their iPad claiming it's better and all they need/want?
I was talking about the chips and components, not the end devices. Used to be they were designed specifically for the aerospace applications but now it is infinitely cheaper to use stuff from phones or whatever so older end items have to redesign to adapt current thingys or just scrap them.
Thus a modern avionics device probably has more in common internally with your smartphone or PC than the old time dingus in your airplane or even an F-15. Even then, a chip or component probably becomes obsolete long before the box it's in does so the same problem exists as for older boxes.
Cheers
I'd guess though the advantage to using commercial chips though is there is typically back compatibility which lessens the hassle of repair of the box when the current chip is obsoleted making it a $900 upgrade rather than throwing the whole box away.
X3 Skier
En-Route
I'd guess though the advantage to using commercial chips though is there is typically back compatibility which lessens the hassle of repair of the box when the current chip is obsoleted making it a $900 upgrade rather than throwing the whole box away.
True but the design cycle of chips is so rapid that after three or four generations backward compatibility is esentially gone. So it all depends on how long you want to keep the box.
Cheers
The gal I stay with in Ft Lauderdale is using PII computers, my ex GF's uncle in Aus is still using a 286 box to run a CNC machine he built, My dad's Commodore 64 still works and runs his programs he built 30 years ago on it.
X3 Skier
En-Route
The gal I stay with in Ft Lauderdale is using PII computers, my ex GF's uncle in Aus is still using a 286 box to run a CNC machine he built, My dad's Commodore 64 still works and runs his programs he built 30 years ago on it.
If they can find or have found the right chips when they c*** out, great. I still have a Dell desktop I bought a long time ago. When it dies, it's an economic decision replace or repair (if I can
).I still have my slide rule if all else fails.
Cheers
If they can find or have found the right chips when they c*** out, great. I still have a Dell desktop I bought a long time ago. When it dies, it's an economic decision replace or repair (if I can
I still have my slide rule if all else fails.
Cheers
I've got glass in front of me, but I have a box of charts and plates behind me and an E6B next to my knee...