Poll: BFRs are for pilots who don't fly enough

BFRs are for pilots who don't fly enough.

  • Agree?

    Votes: 11 13.6%

  • Disagree?

    Votes: 70 86.4%
  • Total voters
    81
There are enough reg changes and other things that it's probably wise to do one hour of ground and one hour of dual every couple of years, or take a checkride, or do WINGS.

I think that recurrent training is a good idea even if you fly frequently. If nothing else it's a chance to practice the odd stuff you don't get in operational flying.
 
if only basic stick and rudder skills were all there was to it. at the moment, im still in a mood of recurrent training with a good isntructor is a good thing. ive been out of regular flight instructing for about a year and a half now and i can really tell. i used to know many regulatory intricacies very well and that knowledge is slipping away.
 
Flight reviews for active pilots (and those are are also current CFIs) are mostly a waste of time. I mean really, I can give a flight review on one day, and the next day I need to have one of my own or else I magically don't know how to fly anymore. Idiocracy at it's best. They should treat the flight review like instrument currency.
 
Legally, it's for everyone. Practically, it depends on your environment.

If you're in a constant training environment as many frequent flyers are, then you're getting the recurrent training anyway, probably more frequently. In which case, you may as well just get an instructor to sign it off as a flight review.

However I've also come across very good pilots who fly a lot, but they don't make a habit of going out and performing the basic proficiency exercises that you'd be expected to do in a flight review. Those sorts of pilots benefit from it.

I've also seen people who don't fly enough and proficiency wise are very good.
 
There was a lot of upset when that rule came out - "Ain't no bidness of the Feds" and so on. I don't know if it's really helped cull out the bad pilots any more than Darwin has.

If someone doesn't fly enough to keep their skills to a level where they could pass the private PTS at any time, I don't think a FR really is going to make that much difference.
 
Trapper John said:
If someone doesn't fly enough to keep their skills to a level where they could pass the private PTS at any time, I don't think a FR really is going to make that much difference.
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Most of the people I've taken up on flight reviews either had no real use for them or needed them. The ground was usually the portion that they needed more - updated rules and such that they weren't aware of.
 
I'm not an instructor, but I've met more than a few pilots who thought that they were pretty hot stuff, who weren't. I think that it is good to get a second opinion every other year. Just because someone flies a lot doesn't mean that they are not developing bad habits.
 
EdFred said:
Flight reviews for active pilots (and those are are also current CFIs) are mostly a waste of time.
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Is it because you think "active pilots" don't develop bad habits or have holes in their knowledge? Or is it that flight reviews aren't comprehensive enough to catch them?
 
Maxmosbey said:
I'm not an instructor, but I've met more than a few pilots who thought that they were pretty hot stuff, who weren't. I think that it is good to get a second opinion every other year. Just because someone flies a lot doesn't mean that they are not developing bad habits.
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If my students are passing their check rides how bad can my habits possibly be?
 
PittsDriver said:
Is it because you think "active pilots" don't develop bad habits or have holes in their knowledge? Or is it that flight reviews aren't comprehensive enough to catch them?
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I treat a flight review as a quasi-check ride. How comprehensive are check rides when it comes to overall skill? Not very.
 
I always get tips and pointers that I think are valuable; so much of my flying is, as the saying goes, "the same hour repeated 100 times."

With a good instructor (and maybe I have been lucky in this regard), a Flight Review (with or without the "B") is very useful.
 
Maxmosbey said:
I'm not an instructor, but I've met more than a few pilots who thought that they were pretty hot stuff, who weren't. I think that it is good to get a second opinion every other year. Just because someone flies a lot doesn't mean that they are not developing bad habits.
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If they think they're hot stuff and aren't, chances are they won't be interested in that second opinion.
 
I figure it's a catch all for the least capable pilots, like the "last hour repeated a hundred times" guy and if it throws a couple of hours at a CFI every couple of years, why not. I'm a 1600 hour pilot flying 100+ hours a year but it never bothered me to have someone else look at me every couple of years.

The one that made no sense to me is that when I got my glider rating, my BFR requirement was met and I'm good to go jump off into the soup for another couple of years (with currency requirements met, of course). Same thing with the ASES that I got. With add-on ratings and such, I think in 10+ years I've only had like a couple of BFRs.

Hey, it's a license to learn - go learn something!
 
i'm actually facing my first flight review ever in september. i suppose 8 years without one is a decent run.
 
PittsDriver said:
The one that made no sense to me is that when I got my glider rating, my BFR requirement was met and I'm good to go jump off into the soup for another couple of years (with currency requirements met, of course). Same thing with the ASES that I got. With add-on ratings and such, I think in 10+ years I've only had like a couple of BFRs.
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I'm legal to jump into a helicopter and fly it solo even though I haven't flown one in 10 years and have a grand total of 125 hours and holding in one. :eek:

I know this is a loophole but I don't know if I would want it closed. Some things are better left to common sense.
 
I recently just had my first FR, and enjoyed it very much. I tend to fly often and practice manouvers and regulary go up with a CFI, just because I felt it was good to review some items. While doing manouvers myself or with other pilots, we do learn some things from one another, but from a CFI who is holding you to PTS standards or pushing you to try another manouver (steep turns under the hood, or commercial level banked steep turn) you learn some new tips or tricks.

The ground school was probably where I had to work the most though. I was quizzed just has hard as i was on my checkride day, if not harder. In depth discussions about Critical angle of attack, Va, Turbulance, Low Visibility, Emergencies, etc, really got me thinking and it was a good brain workout.

I'm glad I had to meet a requirement, even though the flight portion may not have been that difficult, it was still good to meet those standards.
 
If I don't complete my CFI this year I'll need one.

Note - Yes, the CFI ride doesn't reset the clock, but it will qualify for a WINGS phase with what I've already got and THAT will reset the clock.
 
TMetzinger said:
There are enough reg changes and other things that it's probably wise to do one hour of ground and one hour of dual every couple of years, or take a checkride, or do WINGS.
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That's pretty much the FAA's position, and I agree with them.

I think that recurrent training is a good idea even if you fly frequently. If nothing else it's a chance to practice the odd stuff you don't get in operational flying.
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...not to mention identifying and correcting any bad habits, inappropriate procedures, or poor techniques that have crept in.
 
Most of my flying has my Bride in the right seat and honestly she is not interested in steep bank turns, practicing engine out or any other maneuver. Granted, I am still working on my IR and hope to wrap it up the end of the month. My BFR is due the end of this month, my new rating will take care of it. I also complete most of the online courses and I am working on the Wings certification. Any extra training, seminars or hangar flying with other pilots help keep me thinking and reading.
 
I ask questions when i start a FR: "What kind of flying do you usually do?, What type flying do you feel rusty on? What do you think you need to practice?" and the like.

Also, I get to fly new airplanes and ask about the bird. That brings out all sorts of neat info from the owner.

Haven't met one yet that said, "I'm awesome on everything."

Biggest holes are usually some knowledge of new regs, etc.

And usually basic tasks such as Steep turns, stalls, and short field.
 
EdFred said:
If my students are passing their check rides how bad can my habits possibly be?
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Is it only instructors who get BFRs? I don't know how bad your habits are. Are you saying that there is nothing left for you to learn? Are you saying that you can't improve and that someone else can't help you improve? Interesting.
 
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Everskyward said:
I know this is a loophole but I don't know if I would want it closed. Some things are better left to common sense.
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I fully agree. Flying is one of the few realms left where people are expected to have common sense. I want to keep the freedoms we have while flying the way they are.
 
I do 4 hours of recurrent flight training every six months, and 24 hours of recurrent ground training every year. I manage to learn (or re-learn) something new every time. And I fly a decent amount. As others have mentioned, it's a great opportunity to brush up on stuff you haven't done or thought about in a while.
 
What's worse than getting a couple of hours with an instructor? Bending up the hardware because your skills are off. It's fair because we all have to do it along with medicals. Maybe a better way of handling it would be hours based.
There should be some kind of recurring training and sign off for automobile drivers' licenses too. The licenses should also mandate "English speaking" certified. There should be tests for driving at night, inclement weather, on highways, and with passengers and other distractions. A periodic medical should also be mandatory.
Being proactive is better than waiting until something bad happens. I see it as a good thing.
 
I like doing BFR's/ WINGS it allows an instructor to make me do things I can not or wouldn't do when flying solo. I did one last month and the sneaky instructor did his best to distract me with a "look at the topless girl" ploy on my base leg. I was even surprized that it did not distract me, made me kinda proud, and the whole BFR thing worth while.
 
How do we reconcile GA's deplorable safety record that is universally acknowledged to be more than 80% pilot stupidity with objections to more training?
 
I have always gotten a few hours of dual every Spring, BFR, Wings, or not.
 
I think they are great even for those who fly a bunch. Habits have a funny way of changing over time. Not a thing bad about seeing if any of those habits( or lack there of) are starting to migrate in the wrong direction. and as others said the manual gear level needs a work out too.
 
PittsDriver said:
Is it because you think "active pilots" don't develop bad habits or have holes in their knowledge? Or is it that flight reviews aren't comprehensive enough to catch them?
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The latter is what comes to mind.

I have mixed feelings on this issue. I can't say I haven't learned anything useful on a flight review but I'm pretty sure I've never picked up anything that's likely to save my life someday and chances are pretty good that most folks don't get much long term benefit out of a FR. Even the 30 hr/yr pilot is probably going to forget 95% of what he's taught during the flying portion within a month or two, especially if he doesn't fly during that time. I suspect that an online "update" with quiz, along the lines of AOPA's offerings would be sufficient (especially if they were done a few times each year) would do more for pilot competency as well as regulatory knowledge than the current BFR system. OTOH, BFRs do help keep the CFI pool able to afford their Mac&Cheese dinners, and I'm sure that some pilots who otherwise are fairly isolated from the rest of the pilot community actually do improve their skills in a lasting way by going through a BFR.

I guess I'd like to turn this around a bit. For those who feel that BFR's are a good thing, what two things can you remember learning in a BFR that occurred more than 6 months ago?
 
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wabower said:
How do we reconcile GA's deplorable safety record that is universally acknowledged to be more than 80% pilot stupidity with objections to more training?
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Perhaps by recognizing that the "training" that occurs in most BFRs doesn't impart any significant "pilot smarts" (aka good judgment) to the participants? I'm not saying that good judgment can't be taught or learned, just that I don't believe this occurs during a BFR.
 
wabower said:
How do we reconcile GA's deplorable safety record that is universally acknowledged to be more than 80% pilot stupidity with objections to more training?
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It's easy, say, "An hour, and not ONE MINUTE MORE!" :( :(
 
I've always viewed the FR akin to a traffic checkpoint. The ones where they look for expired plates, inspection stickers, driver's license, impaired judgement, etc. A chance to identify the weaknesses rather than an instructional event. Demostrating sustained proficiency seems to be the object in my experience. Something drivers should be subject to, imho.
 
wabower said:
How do we reconcile GA's deplorable safety record that is universally acknowledged to be more than 80% pilot stupidity with objections to more training?
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We don't, Wayne, we, don't.
 
I saw your other post advocating an online course. Is that the answer? Is our current kill rate the best we can hope for? Is your position that no training is the same as some training? How would you make whatever we do more meaningful?

I got no dog in this fight, have done hundreds of FR's for friends over the years and have yet to charge anybody a dime. I'm just ashamed to be part of such a bunch of dumb shlts that continues to kill themselves and their passengers at the current rate.


gismo said:
Perhaps by recognizing that the "training" that occurs in most BFRs doesn't impart any significant "pilot smarts" (aka good judgment) to the participants? I'm not saying that good judgment can't be taught or learned, just that I don't believe this occurs during a BFR.
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The problem with the flight review system is that the folks who are smart enough to get good recurrent training on a regular basis would do so even without the rule, and the ones who aren't manage to find some CFI willing to trade a signature for money (like the IA's providing $400 "walk-around" annuals).

:sigh:
 
Teller1900 said:
I do 4 hours of recurrent flight training every six months, and 24 hours of recurrent ground training every year. I manage to learn (or re-learn) something new every time. And I fly a decent amount. As others have mentioned, it's a great opportunity to brush up on stuff you haven't done or thought about in a while.
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I'm pretty much in the same boat. In thinking about it we do 6 hours of training and a 2.5 hour checkride as the FP and the same amount as PNF if you have a sim partner. That's every six months. I think there is also about 16 hours of classroom time plus online training which I've never timed. Although I'm not necessarily thrilled with all of this I know I learn something new each time or remember what I've forgotten. That said we both fly airplanes that are more complex than a 172 and there are many more things to forget.

I don't necessarily think FRs will change anyone's attitude, though, and I'm not convinced they weed out too many people either.
 
I agree with everyone who posted -- on both sides of this issue.

I posted the poll because I had the pleasant good fortune of doing my first BFR in Texas this past week with a very experienced CFI who has been flying for over 50 years, and has every rating there is. To say that this guy has seen it all, and done it all, is an understatement.

His attitude toward BFRs reflected the question I asked, and frankly I very much appreciated it. After a few minutes of questioning, he knew I flew regularly. After one trip around the patch, he sort of chuckled and said "Well, you've certainly done this before -- how'd you like to go see the Monkey Farm?" -- at which point we flew off to see an enormous, operational monkey farm. (In Texas. Who'd a thunk?)

En route, he had me do a power-on stall. In addition to the stall, I demonstrated that I could hang ol' Atlas on the prop, with the airspeed off the bottom of the scale, without losing altitude, virtually indefinitely. When we got bored with that we circled the monkeys for a bit, before heading off to see the King Ranch -- one of the largest in the world. (It is bigger than the state of Rhode Island.)

We then headed back to the airport. I crossed over the top of the field, broke into a left downwind, and landed. That was that -- he said "It's been an hour -- let's get a cold pop."

And that's when he said it, after parking the plane: "BFRs are for pilots who don't fly enough." We shot the breeze for another hour, enjoying ourselves immensely. He then signed my logbook, and refused to accept any money. I offered him a night in the motel instead, but nope, all he wanted was a cold beer next time he came to the island. Helluva nice guy.

And, I must say, it was refreshing to not fly with a young CFI who inevitably is intent upon "teaching me something" -- no matter how inane. I spent one entire BFR tracking VOR needles, because I made the mistake of telling the guy that I hadn't turned the VORs on in years.

THAT was about as useful as brushing up on my latin, or dusting off my DOS skills. Dumb, dumb, dumb, and I never used that CFI again.

Still, I also appreciate the attitude that we should always be learning, and have routinely enjoyed (and learned valuable lessons) during past BFRs. At some point, though, it's nice to fly with an old salt who is experienced enough to be able to ascertain your skill level without much fuss or muss.
 
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