Police v. Dogs - good start

jesse said:
What would you do different?

I'm sorry but there has been lots of progress. My step dad spent the better part of his career on a drug task force fighting the meth problem. When I was in middle school he was working 7 days a week and doing about 5 raids per week. He just retired, but before that, it was down to about one every two weeks. Even with him battling it, the majority of my siblings still fell into the trap that is meth. It sure messed a lot of lives up.

They've made progress. Yes it's a little more difficult to buy pseudoephedrine now but you can still get as much as any person should need without much hassle.
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I do not know Jesse, but I can say that having to give my identification information to the pharmacy to buy, in limited quantities only, a OTC drug just really, really, really (oh man I could add many more) chaps my arse, no make that it completely ****es me off.
 
A question for those with more intimate knowledge of day to day activities of serving a warrant...
Would it be a good option to have an officer with one of those tools animal control uses to collar a dog (long pole with a hoop at the end) and secure it to remove the danger, real or perceived?
 
pilot_dude said:
A question for those with more intimate knowledge of day to day activities of serving a warrant...
Would it be a good option to have an officer with one of those tools animal control uses to collar a dog (long pole with a hoop at the end) and secure it to remove the danger, real or perceived?
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I think the idea here is the vicious drug criminals might send the evidence down the plumbing while law enforcement is securing the animals.
 
pilot_dude said:
A question for those with more intimate knowledge of day to day activities of serving a warrant...
Would it be a good option to have an officer with one of those tools animal control uses to collar a dog (long pole with a hoop at the end) and secure it to remove the danger, real or perceived?
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Probably not practical however I believe that LFOs could be trained to differentiate the relatively harmless barking family dog from a dangerous animal. Sometimes I think that the cops just want to shoot something as a show of force.
 
Gary F said:
Probably not practical however I believe that LFOs could be trained to differentiate the relatively harmless barking family dog from a dangerous animal. Sometimes I think that the cops just want to shoot something as a show of force.
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I know veterinarians who can't do that. Since we as a nation are committed to a policy of armed interdiction and enforcement, the police policy of shooting dogs on sight makes perfect sense. Most of the victims of these fascist tactics truly deserve them, being heavily armed and lawless. However, law enforcement is an inherently human activity, and will generate mistakes. The good news for all of us is most of these mistakes occur almost exclusively in socioeconomically disadvantaged areas, and aren't likely to happen to anyone reading this.
 
steingar said:
I know veterinarians who can't do that. Since we as a nation are committed to a policy of armed interdiction and enforcement, the police policy of shooting dogs on sight makes perfect sense. Most of the victims of these fascist tactics truly deserve them, being heavily armed and lawless. However, law enforcement is an inherently human activity, and will generate mistakes. The good news for all of us is most of these mistakes occur almost exclusively in socioeconomically disadvantaged areas, and aren't likely to happen to anyone reading this.
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And in this case the mistake is being paid for, it's the risk of doing buissness as a LEO. Here in Ohio they tell cadetes that it doesn't matter if they do their jobs 100% correctly for their entire lives they will still not only be sued, but they will loose some times too.
 
bluee said:
I resent that implied breed stereotyping.
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Well German Shepards are #1 at bitting people,


but Goldens aren't too far behind at #3.

Thing is my Dad's dog wouldn't hurt you but would get shot because she'd be barking with her hackles raised, but would pee if you touched her:rofl:
 
Dogs like German Shepherds and Rotties are bred to be territorial and protecting. Nothing wrong with that, it just is more in their DNA, especially when on their own turf. However, any dog can become aggressive.
 
Since dogs are supposed to be registered (at least around here) it would be easy to know if there is going to be a dog at the residence prior to breaking down the door.
 
We had a similar situation in our town a while back. Police suspected a guy has a large amount of pot in his house in a nice neighborhood. Fortunately they videotaped the raid. They yelled "police" and broke down his front door 3 seconds later. Heard a dog barking, one of the officers chased it into the kitchen and fired 2 shots to kill one dog and 2 shots to wound another. While handcuffing the guy, while his 7 year-old son is watching, he is clearly not resisting and is face-down on the floor when one of the officers kicks him in the head. They did find a small kitchen scale, but no pot.

Not long before that, a mayor in the northeast faced a similar debacle. Cheye Calvo was returning home with his kids and mother in-law when cops stormed his house, killing his dogs and kept the family handcuffed for a few hours while they tossed the house, finding nothing.

A few years ago in Atlanta, police got the wrong address and broke in the door of an old woman's house in the middle of the night and were surprised when she started shooting. They returned fire, killing her.

Police got a bad tip and broke in a family's house in the middle of the night. They had 6 children and the guy doesn't know what's going on, waking up with guys in black running up his stairs with guns, and fires at them. Amazingly, he lived.

I am absolutely not anti-cop. I am pro-police. But I am also pro-civilian. It may be legal, but when things like this happen the police are truly nothing more than thugs with badges.
 
Skylane81E said:
Well German Shepards are #1 at bitting people,


but Goldens aren't too far behind at #3.

Thing is my Dad's dog wouldn't hurt you but would get shot because she'd be barking with her hackles raised, but would pee if you touched her:rofl:
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I read that #1 is Cocker Spaniels, followed closely by Chihuahuas.
 
I suspect that the breed with the most attacks is the one with the greatest number of individuals. Larger, more powerful dogs can do far more damage, though.

I've only been bitten twice in my whole life. The first time, when I was a young child, I vowed no dog would run me down or bite me again, and made it so for over 40 years. A neighbor's toy poodle got me a couple years ago.
 
EdFred said:
Since dogs are supposed to be registered (at least around here) it would be easy to know if there is going to be a dog at the residence prior to breaking down the door.
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Not when the police are at the wrong address to start with....
 
haven said:
Not when the police are at the wrong address to start with....
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True, and in that case they should be compensated handsomely, innocent mistake or not.
 
If you want your War on Drugs and our culture of interdiction, this sort of thing is more or less inevitable. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
dmccormack said:
There's (still) a huge difference between people and dogs, and the difference is significant in law and practice.
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And people have been killed in the wrong address raids.

Thing is there are mechanisms in place to prevent them. Now if they could be followed all the time...
 
tdager said:
I do not know Jesse, but I can say that having to give my identification information to the pharmacy to buy, in limited quantities only, a OTC drug just really, really, really (oh man I could add many more) chaps my arse, no make that it completely ****es me off.
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It ought to PO the manufacturer. I'm sure, like me, many people have given up buying OTC drugs just because you have to sign for it. Then there's the stuff they hide behind the counter just because people steal them.
Good.... you can keep that stuff too.
I'll find something else or do without.
 
I got carded the other day because I bought an aerosol can. State law so the clerk said. People snort, huff, smoke, or inject anything, ANYTHING they think will get them high. Making pot or coke or heroin legal wont change that. If they cant afford the drug of choice, they WILL find something else.
Model glue hardly holds anything together any more. You cant buy the formerly OTC drug which helped get you past a cold because some guy found out you could use it in met crystal making.
If they thought injecting used motor oil would get them high, they'd raid your car. It doesn't matter. The war on drugs is simply designed to build power and make an appearance of doing something.
Much like TSA and airport security.
 
silver-eagle said:
I got carded the other day because I bought an aerosol can. State law so the clerk said. People snort, huff, smoke, or inject anything, ANYTHING they think will get them high. Making pot or coke or heroin legal wont change that. If they cant afford the drug of choice, they WILL find something else.
Model glue hardly holds anything together any more. You cant buy the formerly OTC drug which helped get you past a cold because some guy found out you could use it in met crystal making.
If they thought injecting used motor oil would get them high, they'd raid your car. It doesn't matter. The war on drugs is simply designed to build power and make an appearance of doing something.
Much like TSA and airport security.
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Excellent post. :thumbsup:
 
jesse said:
What would you do different?

, the majority of my siblings still fell into the trap that is meth. It sure messed a lot of lives up.

They've made progress. Yes it's a little more difficult to buy pseudoephedrine now but you can still get as much as any person should need without much hassle.
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Majority? As in more then one of your siblings? That seems to go past the predisposed stage and head straight toward the family unit and what was taught to the kids in the first 5 years of life by the parents. IMHO.

Jesse, I ain't picking on ya it just seems strange most of your siblings got caught up in the drug trap.:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

Ben.
 
ScottM said:
No amount of compensation can make up for a life improperly taken.
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Well put...... I can say, if for some reason they break down my door and shoot my dog because of a mix up in paperwork , the judge and jury will be the LEAST of their problems.:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::idea:
 
N801BH said:
Well put...... I can say, if for some reason they break down my door and shoot my dog because of a mix up in paperwork , the judge and jury will be the LEAST of their problems.:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::idea:
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And in Indiana they passed a law to prevent you from offering any resistance to the police making an impropper search:mad2:
 
I was shopping home owners insurance a few years ago, and the women rep asked me over the phone if I had any dogs. I told her yes, she asked what breed, and I got out Ger..... before she interrupted me and said, "Oh no, we don't insure people with German Shepherds." I then told her I had a German Shorthaired Pointer, not a German Shepherd. She then said, "yeah but they're like German Shepherds, right?" I told her no, hung up and called another carrier. :rolleyes:
 
My tenants in Cincinnati had a Rotweiler. I was happy to have the dog in residence, the couple met while teaching at an obedience school. I've never seen a sweeter, more well behaved dog. Probably caused less damage than anyone's offspring.
 
I found it funny how many pitbulls, shepards and rottys were at our old complex destpite the no "agressive" dogs clause of the lease.
 
Skylane81E said:
And in Indiana they passed a law to prevent you from offering any resistance to the police making an impropper search:mad2:
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Yes, a "man" was charged with assault or resisting arrest (or something like that) after roughing up his wife, she called police, he took her phone, then tried to leave when the police showed up, then tried to go back inside, then blocked the door with the wife still inside asking him to let the police in.

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf

The entry into that house was entirely proper under longstanding law, for those very particular circumstances.

I do agree with the dissent, though (it's not really a dissent) - the language of the majority is too broad. It should have been confined to the facts of the case.
 
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Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Yes, a "man" was charged with assault after roughing up his wife, she called police, he took her phone, then tried to leave when the police showed up, then tried to go back inside, then blocked the door with the wife still inside asking him to let the police in.

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf

The entry into that house was entirely proper under longstanding law, for those very particular circumstances.

I do agree with the dissent, though (it's not really a dissent) - the language of the majority is too broad. It should have been confined to the facts of the case.
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Atleast in Ohio the cops could have come in in that case no ploblem. If someone inside the building invites you in you may in good faith trust that they are allowed to give you permission to enter.

Beyond that is the probable cause that a DV type crime is in going on.
 
Skylane81E said:
Atleast in Ohio the cops could have come in in that case no ploblem. If someone inside the building invites you in you may in good faith trust that they are allowed to give you permission to enter.
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Yes. I think that's the "national" rule under the U.S. Constitution, and I think that it's been followed in every state under all of the state constitutions. There are some minor variations regarding, but I don't think anything signficant.

Beyond that is the probable cause that a DV type crime is in going on.
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Right. Pretty much anytime you go into someone's house, there has to be PC. There doesn't necessarily need to be a warrant (getting a warrant isn't practical when you hear a murder in progress), but there still has to be probable cause.

In that Indiana case, you've got two possible exceptions: 1) clearly a case of DV in progress with a pretty significant chance of escalation; and 2) maybe some kind of "hot pursuit" exception.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with this case and its particular facts. Now, if it were some other situation, yeah, I'd agree that there might be a big problem.
 
Exaclty, my point being the new law is unneed, if the police NEED to get in they are already sufficently empowered to do so
 
N801BH said:
Majority? As in more then one of your siblings? That seems to go past the predisposed stage and head straight toward the family unit and what was taught to the kids in the first 5 years of life by the parents. IMHO.

Jesse, I ain't picking on ya it just seems strange most of your siblings got caught up in the drug trap.:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

Ben.
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I have four older sisters and two older brothers. Out of those six - at least four got caught up in that crap and served time. Two of them are recovered and doing as well as they can do given their lack of any specialty skills like I acquired. The other two, well, we'll see.

I still have a younger sister that I don't suspect will go down that path.

As far as to parenting being the cause..who knows. I would say I was raised pretty well during the early years of my life. It was the later years when things started to go to hell. Probably a little too much rope cut to teens in small towns with absolutely nothing to do.

When I travel back to my "hometown" (well, I moved about eight times growing up) the only people that remain are on meth. Everyone smarter moved.
 
Anthony said:
I was shopping home owners insurance a few years ago, and the women rep asked me over the phone if I had any dogs. I told her yes, she asked what breed, and I got out Ger..... before she interrupted me and said, "Oh no, we don't insure people with German Shepherds." I then told her I had a German Shorthaired Pointer, not a German Shepherd. She then said, "yeah but they're like German Shepherds, right?" I told her no, hung up and called another carrier. :rolleyes:
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One asked me if there were firearms in the house.

I hmmm'ed as I wondered where the question was heading, and the person quickly stammered out... "We just ask if they're stored in a proper locked place and/or have a trigger guard installed when not in use!" He also asked if any children lived here.

I replied with, "How exactly do I know you work for the insurance company again?", since it was a phone call.

"Sorry, I'm not going to answer questions like that over the phone to a stranger. Feel free to send me these questions in writing from an address I can verify, or provide a phone number I can call back to that I can verify, since you don't employ local agents and I can't talk to one I know personally."

He switched to, "I don't have a phone number here that they give me that you can call back to. So, if there were firearms in the home, would they be stored safely?"

"Sure. Send that letter. Gotta go eat dinner now. Have a nice evening."
 
denverpilot said:
One asked me if there were firearms in the house.

I hmmm'ed as I wondered where the question was heading, and the person quickly stammered out... "We just ask if they're stored in a proper locked place and/or have a trigger guard installed when not in use!" He also asked if any children lived here.

I replied with, "How exactly do I know you work for the insurance company again?", since it was a phone call.

"Sorry, I'm not going to answer questions like that over the phone to a stranger. Feel free to send me these questions in writing from an address I can verify, or provide a phone number I can call back to that I can verify, since you don't employ local agents and I can't talk to one I know personally."

He switched to, "I don't have a phone number here that they give me that you can call back to. So, if there were firearms in the home, would they be stored safely?"

"Sure. Send that letter. Gotta go eat dinner now. Have a nice evening."
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Wait, did you call him, or vice versa?
 
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