Please sign No User Fee petition

I realize I'm in the minority but user fees make perfect sense to me.
 
Whitehouse.gov is a poorly done site...

-Password not sent in a timely fashion (10 min after registering, still no password to sign the petition)

-A captcha with accented characters?!

Edit...40 minutes later, got the password & signed. Whitehouse.gov sure is no Amazon.com.
 
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BellyUpFish said:
Explain, please?
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In short, we use it, we should pay for it and fuel taxes don't cover the expenses. I think all using the system should pay whether that is commercial, private GA or business GA. Without sending this into SZ, the country is broke and if we want services we should pay for them.
Again, I realize this is the very minority position in this community but it is one man's opinion. As with all things, YMMV.
 
What about busses, trains, subways.... All those oher forms of transportation.

As is we pay more just in fuel taxes than any other form of transportation.
 
pilot_dude said:
In short, we use it, we should pay for it and fuel taxes don't cover the expenses. I think all using the system should pay whether that is commercial, private GA or business GA. Without sending this into SZ, the country is broke and if we want services we should pay for them.
Again, I realize this is the very minority position in this community but it is one man's opinion. As with all things, YMMV.
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I wouldn't mind pay, I suppose, if the fees were reasonable.
 
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The cost of collection, the bureaucracy needed to levy fees, send bills, process payments, and track down the slow payers, would surely far exceed the proceeds. We already have user fees. They are called fuel taxes. If more money is needed, raise the taxes. See? No additional clerks, no bills, no hassle. Duh. Not real hard to figure that out, now is it? the thing is, this gets the politicians a free and far more obvious class-warfare struggle to point to. Looking out for you po-folk by hittin' those eevil rich folk.
 
n20junkie said:
What about busses, trains, subways.... All those oher forms of transportation.

As is we pay more just in fuel taxes than any other form of transportation.
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We're not talking about other modes of transportation.

Please provide citation to your assertion regarding aviation paying more in fuel tax than other forms of transportation.
 
pilot_dude said:
if we want services we should pay for them.
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We do pay for services. In NC I pay .55 cents a gallon to use the roads. 18 cents in federal and the rest is state tax. Plus money from other taxes that I pay.

The federal government pays for ATC. You already pay the federal government alot of money every year. So you are paying for services.

Roads are considered infrastructure and part of the funding for our infrastructure comes out of "the big pot" that we all pay into. Because infrastructure is an economic stimulant it benefits everyone.

In the auto world you pay fuel taxes and income taxes which hire road workers. You pay mechanics to maintain your vehicle. You pay for the salaries of the employees of the companies who build vehicles and manufacture parts. You pay local restaurants and hotels, entertainment, etc.. in the places you visit. You might drive to another city and make a big business deal.

ATC and the airport system are the same way. An infrastructure system that benefits the economy and the public. Provides economic stimulation through transportation and industry / maintenance. Every time you fill up your bird at an FBO or buy a stupid expensive part, get a $100 hamburger, fly to a vacation destination, pay an A&P or sell some of your company's widgets, you are using this public infrastructure to make an economic transaction.

In case you cannot tell, my point is that the ATC system and our airports are critical infrastructure and should be handled like our road system. Paid for by the public because it benefits everyone. GA is not a Giant but think about how much money you pay to fly. Every dollar is a transaction in an economy that is very hungry for cash flow.
 
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I'm all for adjusting the fuel tax. Or adjusting who the Aviation Trust Fund pays out to.

Why can't they do that?
 
As a side note, if flying were less expensive (liability, regulation) it would shine. Fuel is expensive but there are more efficient airplanes today with fuel injection etc.. unfortunately they are absurdly expensive due to certification / liability.

I'm way younger than most of you and I believe the idea that the younger generation is not interested in flying because of video games and the internet is false. There is plenty of airspace in america and plenty of adventurous people. Its the cost.
 
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pilot_dude said:
I realize I'm in the minority but user fees make perfect sense to me.
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I believe that it should pay for itself rather than out of the general revenue, except in cases where civilian and military costs are shared. I don't support flat-rate user fees but I think it is indeed fair and economically efficient to ask that the FAA be funded by aviation fuel taxes.

Actually I was against the petition until I actually read it. Perhaps someone should come up with a better "slogan". To me, aviation fuel tax is a type of user fee.

The aviation community understands the need to raise revenue at a time when we all need to sacrifice, however, this should be done by increasing tax rates on aviation fuel, rather than on a per-flight basis. By using an existing system of revenue generation, the administration can put more of the revenue collected towards the operation of the air traffic control system, thus improving safety for the system overall.
Furthermore, a tax on fuel more accurately reflects the actual ATC services used over a fixed flat fee, as a flight from NYC to LA will require more controller time than a flight from NYC to Boston.
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dell30rb said:
As a side note, if flying were less expensive (liability, regulation) it would shine. I'm alot younger than most of you and I believe the idea that the younger generation is not interested in flying because of video games and the internet is false. Its the cost.
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Agree...the internet/videogame one is a fallacious argument. Are high school sports teams ceasing to exist because everyone is too busy playing video games or wasting time on Facebook? Don't think so.

When I started flying 10 years ago as a teenager a dual lesson (instructor + C150) was $55. Now just the instructor costs that much and the airplane at least double that. How could a teenager afford that?
 
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dell30rb said:
I'm way younger than most of you and I believe the idea that the younger generation is not interested in flying because of video games and the internet is false. There is plenty of airspace in america and plenty of adventurous people. Its the cost.
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I agree. That mixed with over-regulation making it non-fun unless they hit the right people who have fun in spite of retarded stuff like TFRs.
 
I agree we need to cover our own costs but disagree on the user fees. They will only lead to yet another bureaucracy for collection and drive cost-conscious pilots from using services. In addition, much of the ATC system is there to support our military and other benefits for the common good of the country. Fuel taxes do an excellent job of raising revenue pretty much proportional to the load placed on the system by the user.

The fact that the aviation trust fund has carried a significant balance seems to indicate it's a pretty effective revenue generating mechanism. If more is needed, bump that tax accordingly. Don't create a whole new inefficient mechanism for gov't to squander more of our money.
 
denverpilot said:
I agree. That mixed with over-regulation making it non-fun unless they hit the right people who have fun in spite of retarded stuff like TFRs.
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I dont have too much of a problem with tfr's and airspace rules. What bothers me is the cost of parts and airplanes due to liability and regulation costs. A certified 4cyl carbureated air cooled motor costs 25 grand? With mags ?? Some of this stuff is crazy. A $600 alternator? I could go on but i'm preaching to the choir here :)

I know aircraft parts quality must he held to a high standard but we must figure out how to do it without increasing prices to insane levels.
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
Whitehouse.gov is a poorly done site...

-Password not sent in a timely fashion (10 min after registering, still no password to sign the petition)

-A captcha with accented characters?!

Edit...40 minutes later, got the password & signed. Whitehouse.gov sure is no Amazon.com.
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It's Drupal laying on top of Google.
 
I'd never expect a government website to be simple or efficient. I have at least three usernames and passwords for FAA.gov, all separate areas of the site. And I've had to enter my certificate number and verify my identity all three times.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Whitehouse.gov is a poorly done site...

-Password not sent in a timely fashion (10 min after registering, still no password to sign the petition)

-A captcha with accented characters?!

Edit...40 minutes later, got the password & signed. Whitehouse.gov sure is no Amazon.com.
Click to expand...

It's an industry standard reCaptcha. The implementing write has no control over what words are displayed, and one of the words is unknown, meaning that they don't know what it's supposed to be. That's what they're trying to determine. Click on the little ? Next to the image for more info.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm all for adjusting the fuel tax. Or adjusting who the Aviation Trust Fund pays out to.

Why can't they do that?
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Why indeed! Because for starters one would have to assume they want to fix the problem. Of course that is based on the presupposition there is a problem in the first place.

Oh yes, there is a problem but it is not what they purport it to be. It is not a lack of revenue, it is where the monies are disbursed.

It is politically unpalatable to fix the problem.
 
I was 17 yrs old when I first started flight training. I stopped just prior to solo. I had so many interests that flying was just...one...more...thing. I certainly did not stop because of the expense.

A kid with little money could fly gliders, join CAP, hitch rides, get into ultralights, or a host of other ways to fly.
 
Richard said:
I was 17 yrs old when I first started flight training. I stopped just prior to solo. I had so many interests that flying was just...one...more...thing. I certainly did not stop because of the expense.

A kid with little money could fly gliders, join CAP, hitch rides, get into ultralights, or a host of other ways to fly.
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How old are you?
 
pilot_dude said:
In short, we use it, we should pay for it and fuel taxes don't cover the expenses. I think all using the system should pay whether that is commercial, private GA or business GA. Without sending this into SZ, the country is broke and if we want services we should pay for them.
Again, I realize this is the very minority position in this community but it is one man's opinion. As with all things, YMMV.
Click to expand...

Raise the fuel tax, then.
 
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