Please provide more approaches!

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Feb 22, 2005
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Ben
Obviously, I won't be flying as much now that I have the rating (meaning, I won't be flying EVERY DAY--LOL!). But I'd still enjoy yapping over approaches and maybe computer flying them. Got any?
 
Everskyward said:
This is one I've been curious about. The ILS 8 at BUR has a non-standard missed approach climb gradient. Why did they do this instead of raising the minimums like they do at most places?

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0508/00067I8.PDF
Click to expand...

The note says terrain, but also note the missed has you flying over the approach on your way to VNY. Are there many other plates where the missed over flys the approach? Would they have you doing a missed OVER someone else coming in on the approach?

Interesting plate.
 
Bill Jennings said:
The note says terrain
Click to expand...
I understand that part, but the normal way they deal with terrain is to make the approach minimums higher. Can anyone find another public US approach with a non-standard missed approach climb gradient?
 
There are oodles and oodles of missed approaches that take a pilot back over the final approach course. Not ideal but when that's all you've got, you make due. As to the question about not wanting to give up the lower mins by requiring something more stringint than meeting 40 to 1 on the missed, well, that's what waivers are for. Who cares about this approach anyway? With fixes named TOAKS and BUDDE it is strictly stoner central anyway. What would Bob Hope say?
:redface: <- Kinda looks stoned, doesn't he?
 
Bill Jennings said:
The note says terrain, but also note the missed has you flying over the approach on your way to VNY. Are there many other plates where the missed over flys the approach? Would they have you doing a missed OVER someone else coming in on the approach?

Interesting plate.
Click to expand...


The localizer approaches at RUT take you back over the inbound to the hold for the missed. Here this is for terrain, I am pretty sure, as the DP for the place always takes you over to Smuto NDB first for obstacle clearance.

I know of another approach that has a climb gradient on it for the missed, and that is the VOR approach at ASE. Again, terrain is the factor. No doubt there are others.

Jim G
 
Unless I'm mistaken (trust me, I could be, I'm not very knowledgable about this stuff yet), it appears that the ILS 22 at my home airport has both issues. Gradient climb and a return over the approach path to hold at the IAF.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0507/06859I22.PDF
 
Everskyward said:
I understand that part, but the normal way they deal with terrain is to make the approach minimums higher. Can anyone find another public US approach with a non-standard missed approach climb gradient?
Click to expand...

The plate says, "if unable to meet rate of climb, see LOC 8". I assume that means "use the higher minimums from LOC 8" (and not a completely separate plate). So they ARE making the minimums higher. Sorta. Kinda.

I would guess that they did it this way because it's a VERY congested area and it's a way of reducing the number of missed approaches done. They can lower the minimums for most aircraft.

--Kath
 
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00067L8.PDF

Attached is the LOC 8 approach for airplanes that cannot make the climb gradient shown on the KBUR ILS 8. You get localizer mins on the ILS 8 but you have to make the climb gradient shown on the SIAP. If you can't, then you are tied to the LOC 8 (straight in or circle), with the higher mins to allow you to maintain a standard issue 40:1 clearance plane.
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Attached is the LOC 8 approach for airplanes that cannot make the climb gradient shown on the KBUR ILS 8.
Click to expand...
oops... I stand corrected. It is a separate plate, which has even higher minimums! I'd've crashed into the mountain...

--Kath
 
Kath,

I think the reports of your death have been greatly exaggerated. The climb gradients that you have to make to use the ILS 8 plate are based on weight. For example, if your Turbo Weenie MK II weighs 150,000 lbs and you cannot make 640 FPM on the missed (ILS or LOC) , then your flying the LOC 8 plate, period.
But what if your Turbo Weenie MK II weighs about 2500 pounds and can climb at least 500 feet per minute, or at least meet the minimum climb rate shown on the chart. Can you fly the ILS 8 and use the lowest available mins? Speaking of that, why is the ILS 8 not a 200 and 1/2 approach? I'm gonna go get a coffee, y'all figure this one out.
 
grattonja said:
I know of another approach that has a climb gradient on it for the missed, and that is the VOR approach at ASE. Again, terrain is the factor. No doubt there are others.
Click to expand...
Here's the approach plate for ASE:

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0508/05889VDGC.PDF

Where does it say the climb gradient for the missed approach is anything other than standard? Aspen has a very steep descent angle and a DP with a climb gradient when the weather is bad (worse than 3100-3), but they handle the terrain problem here by having a high MDA (2380' AGL).
 
NickDBrennan said:
Unless I'm mistaken (trust me, I could be, I'm not very knowledgable about this stuff yet), it appears that the ILS 22 at my home airport has both issues. Gradient climb and a return over the approach path to hold at the IAF.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0507/06859I22.PDF
Click to expand...
I don't see anything about a climb gradient on this missed approach either. Look back at the ILS 8 at BUR. There's a place where it reads, "Note missed approach climb requirements: Terrain in the missed approach area requires a rate of climb of..."

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0508/00067I8.PDF

I'm sure there must be other approaches with non-standard missed approach climb gradients, but I can't remember seeing one besides the one in Burbank. I have a short memory, though. ;)
 
Fast n' Furious said:
With fixes named TOAKS and BUDDE it is strictly stoner central anyway. What would Bob Hope say?
Click to expand...
Bob Hope is probably rolling in his grave... or rolling other things in his grave! How did that get past the censors? :eek:

Are there censors?

At least I'll have something to point out next time we go back there. ;)
 
Fast n' Furious said:
The climb gradients that you have to make to use the ILS 8 plate are based on weight. For example, if your Turbo Weenie MK II weighs 150,000 lbs and you cannot make 640 FPM on the missed (ILS or LOC) , then your flying the LOC 8 plate, period.
Click to expand...

I thought it was based on speed ("150K" meaning 150 knots).

--Kath
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Speaking of that, why is the ILS 8 not a 200 and 1/2 approach?
Click to expand...
OK, my guess, after having my coffee. The note says, "ILS unusable from Vinee LMM inbound" which means you have to back the missed approach point up for that 0.4 miles at which point you would be 250' AGL on the glideslope instead of 200'.
 
Well, this was a learning experience. As Kath surmised very correctly the climb requirements are based on speed (why was I thinking weight,? Duh). So if you can't make the climb rate at speed you fly the LOC 8. Also, the LOC antenna is actually IN FRONT of the runway threshold for RWY 8 which accounts for the ILS unusable note which drives the visibility requirement out to a mile despite having a MALSR. The BUR LOC is also the NAVAID used to fly the LDA-C in KVNY. What a weird little airport. No wonder it was the butt of so many jokes during the Laugh In years.
 
Everskyward said:
Bob Hope is probably rolling in his grave... or rolling other things in his grave! How did that get past the censors? :eek:

Are there censors?

At least I'll have something to point out next time we go back there. ;)
Click to expand...

Well, TOAKS stands for the city of Thousand Oaks.
I assume BUDDE is pronounced like Buddy, if they wanted to make
it a pot reference I would think that would have used BUDDD.

greg
 
river_rat said:
Well, TOAKS stands for the city of Thousand Oaks.
I assume BUDDE is pronounced like Buddy, if they wanted to make
it a pot reference I would think that would have used BUDDD.
Click to expand...
It was more fun the other way. :rolleyes:
 
Everskyward said:
Here's the approach plate for ASE:

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0508/05889VDGC.PDF

Where does it say the climb gradient for the missed approach is anything other than standard? Aspen has a very steep descent angle and a DP with a climb gradient when the weather is bad (worse than 3100-3), but they handle the terrain problem here by having a high MDA (2380' AGL).
Click to expand...


You are right, the climb gradient is standard. Simply impossible for most non turbo GA aircraft, like my skyhawk, but standard. I was thinking required performance to be able to shoot the approach and go missed.

Jim G
 
I like that one "DARNE." As in "Darne! I have to go missed!"

:rofl:
 
AdamZ said:
Tell me what is special about this approach. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
What is category E?
--Kath
 
kath said:
What is category E?
--Kath
Click to expand...

Not sure but might be military. Lots of fast military jets here. Anyway that is not why this approach is so special. Take a closer look.
 
The approach has ASR, Airport Surveillance Radar? Nothing really special in that is there? :dunno:

Jim G
 
Nope Jim: keep looking! hint what happens if you get to .8 DME and can't see runway enviornment?
 
AdamZ said:
Nope Jim: keep looking! hint what happens if you get to .8 DME and can't see runway enviornment?
Click to expand...


I'm really being clueless on this one. Missed looks pretty simple to me, right turn, climb to 2300, 90 degree radial back to the IAF and hold. It's a quick turn or you are past the VOR, and you have a fairly sharp turn to get there, but neither of these are any big deal. Nor do I see much that troubles me in the way of pointy things to eat the plane. You got me.

Jim G
 
kath said:
What is category E?
Click to expand...
Category E is for airplanes with a Vref or final approach speed of 166 knots or more.

Still working on the other question about the approach. :confused:

5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures
​
a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certificated landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certificated landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. Helicopters are Category A aircraft. An aircraft shall fit in only one category. However, if it is necessary to operate at a speed in excess of the upper limit of the speed range for an aircraft's category, the minimums for the category for that speed shall be used. For example, an airplane which fits into Category B, but is circling to land at a speed of 145 knots, shall use the approach Category D minimums. As an additional example, a Category A airplane (or helicopter) which is operating at
130 knots on a straight-in approach shall use the approach Category C minimums. See the following category limits:
​
1. Category A: Speed less than 91 knots.
​
2. Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.
​
3. Category C: Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.
​
4. Category D: Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.
​
5. Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.
​
NOTE-
VREF is the reference landing approach speed, usually about
1.3 times V[size=-1]SO[/size] plus 50 percent of the wind gust speed in excess of the mean wind speed (See 14 CFR Section 23.73). V[size=-1]SO[/size] is the stalling speed or the minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration at maximum weight (See 14 CFR Section 23.49).
​
 
But I guess you need to change the spelling. . . .
 
NickDBrennan said:
I like that one "DARNE." As in "Darne! I have to go missed!"

:rofl:
Click to expand...
LOL, I think it's more along the lines of "Darne! Why did they have to assign this approach!? Look at all the stuff that's involved." :eek:
 
wangmyers said:
LOL!!! It's your approach, Adam!
Click to expand...

YES! Excellent! Ben you win the prize, whatever that may be. I want to fly that approach one day and tell the tower Zucker is 1DME outside Zuker. LOL. Actually I do fly to KACY for practice.
Personally, I think all intersections and fixes should have names of significance. It is so much more fun that way.
 
AdamZ said:
I want to fly that approach one day and tell the tower Zucker is 1DME outside Zuker. LOL.
Click to expand...
Ohhhhh. Light bulb goes on, finally. :yes:
 
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