Please help with this approach

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00927VD8.PDF

Please look at this approach. I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly (as I have a lesson on it tomorrow). I find three (3) IAFs. Allow me to explain how they work, and please correct me if I am wrong.

1) The most obvious IAF is the VOR. From here, one proceeds outbound on R-215 to JONUR, and from there begins flying the ARC. There is no other transition from the VOR. (Look carefully at R-296--it isn't a transition to WILEN.)

2) WILEN is another IAF, located on R-269. How does one get there without GPS or RADAR? It turns out that R-269 is also V210, so you could have been navigating inbound on this victor airway. Turn right at WILEN to start the ARC.

3) JONJR is the other IAF. My question here is this: I can't see how one could navigate directly there without RADAR or GPS, unless you intercept R-215 early, outside of the ARC. There is no airway here, so I guess ATC could vector you on a heading to intercept that radial early. Whip out your ADF to make sure that radial is usable where (distance from the VOR and your alt) you want to intercept it. At JONJR, turn left to fly the ARC.​
Comments? Help with that last IAF?

Thanks!
Ben

P.S. I'll try to look at responses before my lesson tomorrow AM, but if I can't I'll let you know how it goes, anyway!
 
wangmyers said:

3) JONJR is the other IAF. My question here is this: I can't see how one could navigate directly there without RADAR or GPS, unless you intercept R-215 early, outside of the ARC. There is no airway here, so I guess ATC could vector you on a heading to intercept that radial early. Whip out your ADF to make sure that radial is usable where (distance from the VOR and your alt) you want to intercept it. At JONJR, turn left to fly the ARC.​
Click to expand...

I would say that fix would be via vectors to the arc. We have one like that up in TVF and ATC gives us a vector to intercept the arc (not necessarily at that exact point, but somewhere on the arc after that) You could also arc around too that from another point, but are not on any published portion until that point, so watch your altitudes (dont descend to 2500 until you reach it).
Any other suggestions?

Jeff
 
That sounds good. Rod Machado says that IAFs that start on an ARC are always
 on an airway (I just checked his book). Looks like this is an exception.
 
wangmyers said:
3) JONJR is the other IAF. My question here is this: I can't see how one could navigate directly there without RADAR or GPS, unless you intercept R-215 early, outside of the ARC. There is no airway here (snip)
Click to expand...

I don't know how out of date Aeroplanner's charts are, but have a look at the atatched. According to Aeroplanner, V457 from LNS to VINNY is on the 226(mag), but the current L23/24 LAC says it is on the 247...

I wonder if the approach hasn't been updated?

But in any event, with DME arcs, aren't you allowed to intercept the arc at any point up to JONUS even if you're off-airway as long as you're at the appropriate off-airway altitude?

Wow - I've gotten rusty at this.

Location Course Mag Crs Distance Total
LANCASTER [LNS] 215° 226° 26.4 nm 26.4 nm
 
There is a published transition (bold line) on the 215 radial off of LRP to JONJR. Without radar vectors, you would fly the transition 11 DME and start the arc.

As you stated, WILEN is overlayed by V210 and you would start the arc 11 DME in either direction.

I wonder what the Jepp DB shows on the 430 for a /G environment. I'll pull that up tonight and check to see what JONJR and WILEN show.

I have no local knowledge about radar coverage here, but I'm guessing that with coverage, you could get about anything you wanted.

Interesting approach...I'll add it to my list of student destinations...:D

Greg
CFI-IA
 
This one is an old friend of mine, and I shot it at the end of my long XC. I was /G and given direct to JonJR from off V457, coming back from Elkins WV. I have been given Direct to JONJR before when already south of the VOR, not on the 215 Radial. "You are cleared Direct to JONJR, report JONJR" or some such. What we have done then is turn to intercept the 215 radial and then fly it down. When I have been given this in practice, we have not been on an IFR plan so they have not known we were /G. Under those circumstances, it appears they expect you to join the R215 transition. There used to be another way to identify Jonjr. I think it was with a radial from Modena VOR, if I remember correctly. Obviously, that is no more.

Usually, in practice, we request the approach from the VOR. Obviously, that makes it easy.

I can't say that I have seen anyone yet do the north arc.

Radar coverage is good in this area and you will not have a problem getting there with radar assistance, if necessary. But I thought you were doing your long XC in a /G ride?

Jim G
 
On my low-altitude chart, JONJR is on V184 between Modina (MXE) and ROAST, which is where V184 and V93 intersect.
 
I ran straight from my sim lesson to teach class. I just finished teaching that class, and am about to teach the next one. Full report forthcoming. . . .
 
Greebo said:
I don't know how out of date Aeroplanner's charts are, but have a look at the atatched. According to Aeroplanner, V457 from LNS to VINNY is on the 226(mag), but the current L23/24 LAC says it is on the 247...

I wonder if the approach hasn't been updated?
Click to expand...

It isn't on V457 now, and I don't remember if it was before.

Greebo said:
But in any event, with DME arcs, aren't you allowed to intercept the arc at any point up to JONUS even if you're off-airway as long as you're at the appropriate off-airway altitude?
Click to expand...
No. You have to start the approach at an IAF, and there has to be a transition from the enroute structure. That means you can't just make your way to someplace on the ARC. Now, if ATC vectors you, we're playing a different game. But if you are cleared for the approach, you'd want to know what IAF they were talking about.

There is no published way to get to JONJR first without RADAR or GPS. (You can get there from LRP.) See my upcoming post on today's lesson.
 
From the two times I've actually flown this approach and the millions of time my CFII has flown it, the answer is: when coming from the south, usually ATC vectors you to JONJR. Occasionally they give you direct JONJR which, of course, you cannot accept if you don't have GPS.

ggroves said:
There is a published transition (bold line) on the 215 radial off of LRP to JONJR. Without radar vectors, you would fly the transition 11 DME and start the arc.

As you stated, WILEN is overlayed by V210 and you would start the arc 11 DME in either direction.

I wonder what the Jepp DB shows on the 430 for a /G environment. I'll pull that up tonight and check to see what JONJR and WILEN show.

I have no local knowledge about radar coverage here, but I'm guessing that with coverage, you could get about anything you wanted.

Interesting approach...I'll add it to my list of student destinations...:D

Greg
CFI-IA
Click to expand...
 
grattonja said:
This one is an old friend of mine, and I shot it at the end of my long XC. I was /G and given direct to JonJR from off V457, coming back from Elkins WV. I have been given Direct to JONJR before when already south of the VOR, not on the 215 Radial. "You are cleared Direct to JONJR, report JONJR" or some such. What we have done then is turn to intercept the 215 radial and then fly it down. When I have been given this in practice, we have not been on an IFR plan so they have not known we were /G. Under those circumstances, it appears they expect you to join the R215 transition. There used to be another way to identify Jonjr. I think it was with a radial from Modena VOR, if I remember correctly. Obviously, that is no more.
Click to expand...

If you aren't /G, you can't legally accept direct JONJR. But in a practice environment, I guess, you could just intercept the radial inbound. If ATC told me to go direct JONJR, I would clarify how I was doing it. It ought to work.

grattonja said:
. . . SNIP. . .

Radar coverage is good in this area and you will not have a problem getting there with radar assistance, if necessary. But I thought you were doing your long XC in a /G ride?

Jim G
Click to expand...
I am doing it in a /G, so I'm good to go. I just wanted to be able to answer questions on this on an oral.

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
BruceAir said:
On my low-altitude chart, JONJR is on V184 between Modina (MXE) and ROAST, which is where V184 and V93 intersect.
Click to expand...

I think that's gone. I'm at the office. I'll go check at home, though. That would make sense, though!
 
One of the problems with training in a /G, as I have, is that you don't automatically think about how to deal with identification of something like Jonjr without the GPS. I have done this approach without GPS (CFI hiding the GPS and giving me DME readings from it) and have always flown that one from LRP as the IAP. When I did it long XC from the south, we were vectored to Jonjr basically.

Jonjr, I am pretty sure, used to be identifiable from the radial from Modena. It used to be on the plate, but isn't any more.

I'm glad you posted this one, Ben. It makes me think anew about an approach that I have always thought I knew well. :)

Jim G
 
wangmyers said:
I enjoy discussing these things!
Click to expand...

I would like to see POA start a discussion thread of the occasional approach. Sort of like Cloudbusters was doing over on the "other" site for a while. Anyone have any interest? I am a bit technology limited so am probably not the best candidate for posting approaches. Anyone willing to post an interesting one for consideration?

Jim G

P.S. The place to do it would be "cleared for the approach", I suppose.

JG
 
Last edited:
Hmm, that's an interesting idea... yes "Cleared for the Approach" would be the most suitable place, as that's the IFR focused forum...

Of course there's no need for PoA to make it an "official feature" - all it takes is for someone to post an interesting or challenging approach. :)
 
Of course there's no need for PoA to make it an "official feature" - all it takes is for someone to post an interesting or challenging approach. :)[/QUOTE]


Agreed. That was my suggestion. I wasn't necessarily asking management to throw out some approaches. You all have enough to do running the joint as it is. I figured anyone with some interesting approaches

Takers?...

Jim G
 
I'm in. I usually post an approach two or three times a month, anyway!
 
wangmyers said:
I'm in. I usually post an approach two or three times a month, anyway!
Click to expand...

Cool. Where do you get the urls to post? I would be willing to go digging in my spare time here at work and see if I can find any that look interesting, but have never known where you all cut and paste them from, or if you simply type them out (not good for me with my seemingly limitless inability to proofread). ;)

Jim G
 
Greebo said:
You can download them here: http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp

Pick the current edition, filter by state, then set your search parameters and you get a list of approaches. When you get the list, right click the PDF link and save it to your computer, then you can post it here as an attachment.

Alternatively you can just copy the Link properties and paste them here, like this:
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0503/05225VA.PDF
Click to expand...


Well, I already have that site bookmarked, which should make it easier. I will have to prowl around a bit and see if I can find something interesting to post.

Thanks.

Jim G
 
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