Please don't lie on your medical application

PPC1052 said:
Let's use a hypothetical to illustrate. Say your state has a statute that suspends driving privileges for non-payment of child support. I would say you have to disclose the suspension on your next and all future medicals.
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Assuming non-payment of child support is an "offense" under state law (which I believe it would have to be before the state could take your license for it), then yes, I'd agree. I can also see how the FAA would be concerned about someone being a deadbeat -- speaks to one's sense of responsibility, which is sort of important for a pilot.

But I would argue that you would not have to send a notice to the FAA automatically within 60 days under 61.15(e), because the suspension doesn't meet the definition of a "motor vehicle action."
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Absolutely correct.
 
Ron Levy said:
It is.
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I agree - you had your choice of punishment. If you pay the fine and take the points, you don't have to report it.

If you choose the school instead, or get sentenced to the school you must report it.

Now, based on the AME guidance given earlier - I expect that you report it, bring the documents showing it was a speeding offense not related to drugs or alcohol, and the AME will yawn and issue you your medical certificate (assuming you're otherwise ok).
 
Retarded. Just sayin'...

What's the Aviation safety goal in mind reporting automotive things that happened decades ago?

Bureaucratic horse-pucky.
 
PPC1052 said:
I suppose the chief counsel could certainly reverse that decision.
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The Chief Counsel absolutely can overrule an interpretation by a Regional Counsel.

But, unless that happens, I would certainly argue vociferously that knowledge of that letter prior to and at the time of completion of the medical application would go a long way to undermining any evidence of intent to misrepresent.
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Only in the Region in which it was issued. Outside that Region, less weight.
 
denverpilot said:
What's the Aviation safety goal in mind reporting automotive things that happened decades ago?
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Patterns of behavior. Attitudes are formed early in life and are very hard to change. There are tons of research and data showing a strong correlation between bad decisions on the ground and bad decisions in the cockpt.

Bureaucratic horse-pucky.
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No -- well-researched and well-documented psychological axioms.
 
Ron Levy said:
The Chief Counsel absolutely can overrule an interpretation by a Regional Counsel.

Only in the Region in which it was issued. Outside that Region, less weight.
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Wasn't a regional counsel in this case. It was from the manager of the medical appeals branch at HQ, responding on behalf of the FAS and the FAA chief counsel.

Unless you're talking about a different letter.
 
Ron Levy said:
Patterns of behavior. Attitudes are formed early in life and are very hard to change. There are tons of research and data showing a strong correlation between bad decisions on the ground and bad decisions in the cockpt.

No -- well-researched and well-documented psychological axioms.
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I agree, and so does the FAA based on the letter I got.
Item 18v aims to discover a history or pattern of driving behaviors that would indicate a propensity toward risky pilot behaviors hazardous to the safety ofthe national air space. Driving while intoxicated by alcohol or other substances clearly applies. But other driving arrests or convictions that are severe enough to result in mandatory educationan or rehabilitation programs or in suspension/revocation of driving privileges also raise concern.
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If you drive like a maniac all the time, or get busted for road rage or something else, and your driving record shows a pattern of poor self-control or decision-making, then the FAA will want to take a closer look at you.
 
Ron Levy said:
Patterns of behavior. Attitudes are formed early in life and are very hard to change. There are tons of research and data showing a strong correlation between bad decisions on the ground and bad decisions in the cockpt.

No -- well-researched and well-documented psychological axioms.
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Psychologists paid for by whom...? Let's see their data.

Do the accident statistics themselves back up the theories postulated by the psychologists? If you have unreported unpaid parking tickets over a decade ago, do you crash more often?

I suspect your story would change if there were a FAR change tomorrow that changed the form to say, "... within the last 15 years."

You'd suddenly say they "found evidence" that old stuff like that didn't apply...

I'd say the whole thing was poorly thought-out to begin with.

In places where parking tickets are sources of revenue more than they're needed to maintain the public interest via law, reviewing someone's payment of said silly tickets as a way to determine their medical eligibility to fly, is retarded.

The unwritten assumption when one government agency uses another's data is that the other government agency is doing something sane to generate those records in the DB. That's usually a very wrong assumption.

If we're going to say parking tickets that lead to a plea bargain to go to traffic school shows a mental defect worthy of note in flying airplanes, why doesn't the FAA pull everyone's IRS records and go through every one of those, line by line?

Bad application of bad law and bad policy backed by pseudo-science or more likely, just barely enough science to justify it without seeing if it truly changed the accident records after requiring the information. (Hint: It didn't.)
 
For whatever reason it seems to me that lying to the gubmint about something the gubmint knows about is a very poor idea.
 
TMetzinger said:
Wasn't a regional counsel in this case. It was from the manager of the medical appeals branch at HQ, responding on behalf of the FAS and the FAA chief counsel.
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Who signed it? If it wasn't the Chief Counsel, and it doesn't cite a document from the Chief Counsel's office (which would then become the controlling document), the Chief Counsel can overrule it, because the "manager of the medical appeals branch at HQ" isn't authorized to issue legal interpretations for the FAA.
 
Ron Levy said:
The Chief Counsel absolutely can overrule an interpretation by a Regional Counsel.

Only in the Region in which it was issued. Outside that Region, less weight.
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Ron,

First, let me say that I respect your conservative view of this issue. It is, in my opinion, very wise. I have tried to express a similar conservative opinion on these issues. I hope that has come through. At every step, I have refrained from absolute statements, or any promise of a safe harbor. My sentences have been filled with hedges. I wish to repeat those now explicitly. For the purposes of the below post, I ask all readers to understand that this no promise of a safe harbor. Just my thoughts for your consideration.

For the sake of discussion only, I just want to note that there are two seperate issues wrapped up in this issue of the finality of the FAA letter recieved by Tim. The first is, do you have to report a voluntary educational program that you choose to undergo to remove points on the medical. The second is, does an applicant who fails to report such an educational program intentionally misrepresent a fact to the FAA such that the FAA has a basis to revoke certificates. There seems to be a general concensus that the chief counsel could overrule that letter, and from henceforth, everyone must report. End of story. But, if an applicant, with said letter in hand, does not disclose this voluntary educational program in reliance on its content (and there is no factual distinction between the applicant and the question put to the FAA), it seems arbitrary and capricous for the FAA to turn around and claim that you intentionally failed to disclose the fact on the medical application, regardless of which region the applicant is in. The issue isn't whether the letter is binding on the FAA, it is whether the applicant intended to misrepresent the facts. If the FAA says you needn't report, and you rely on that statement, where is the intent to deceive? This is a matter of evidence, and inferences--not binding legal authority, such as an opinion handed down by a Circuit Court of Appeals, or the Supreme Court, for that matter.

Now, what does that mean? That means, that if an FAA bureacrat changes his mind, if you receive an order revoking your certificates, you can appeal to the NTSB, and you can make your argument. That will almost certainly require hiring a lawyer. The NTSB hearing may not be in your city, or the city where you lawyer practices. So that is going to cost you to present your argument. (Lawyers charge by the hour, and they will charge you travel time, over and above what is necessary to do the substantive legal work.) But if I had a client willing to pay me to do everything I need to do to fight the issue, I would expect that I would have a reasonable shot at having the revocation overturned, assuming that there is absolutely no other reason to uphold the revocation. But the only guarantee in terms of results is that the client will be several thousand dollars lighter at the end of the day.
 
Its separate, not seperate. The most commonly misspelled word in the English language.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/7930745/Separate-is-most-commonly-misspelt-word.html
 
Twenty-some years ago my driver's license was suspended for 30 days because of speeding tickets. It was so long ago, I'm not sure which year it was, and I know it wasn't longer than 30 days, it may have been two weeks. It was in a different state from where I live now. It never even entered my mind until this thread. I have been flying for a few years and did not report it because I never thought of it and it was so long ago. I have a clean driving record now for many years. What should I do?
 
Unregistered said:
Twenty-some years ago my driver's license was suspended for 30 days because of speeding tickets. It was so long ago, I'm not sure which year it was, and I know it wasn't longer than 30 days, it may have been two weeks. It was in a different state from where I live now. It never even entered my mind until this thread. I have been flying for a few years and did not report it because I never thought of it and it was so long ago. I have a clean driving record now for many years. What should I do?
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What you should do is read the instruction sheet for the 8500-8 carefully, and see if a suspension for speeding tickets with no drug/alcohol involvement is reportable. Let us know after you've done that.
 
Yes, PPC is correct, if you go to an educational course for 300 parking tickets to avoid a fine, ("which resulted in attendance at an educational course") you have to report it. Then it becomes a medical "ho-hum". However if you don't report, it is "You lied. We are going to assume that since you read, write and speak the english language, that you did so with intent. You can, try to prove otherwise. But underadministrative law, we will possess your certificates until you do prove it." Most guys choose to wait it out and reapply for their pilot certificates a year later.

That is why I too have the same message: REPORT.
The Agency has teeth. If they find it and you didn't report it, expect several thousand dollars in legal expenses, and expect generally, to LOSE. NTSB decisions are from 75 year old + federal judges who do not retire. They are generally favorable to the agency (some NOTABLE exceptions).

In summary: Fail to report, it's attorney to attorney, and under administrative law, you haven't got many tools.

Report, and it's doctor to doctor.

If you think they won't find out, just wait until you bend some metal. You are in for a sorry surprise.
 
if someone gets a minor in possesion of alcohol and decides todo community service, go to an alcohol education class at the university student center, and pay 100 dolars of court fees in lieu of getting a conviction (higher fine and guilty of mip in record,but no class attended), ie the case was closed as no contest does he still need to disclose it on the medical even if it was 4 years before??? No motor vehicle was invovled in the incident and the subject has a clean record.

also, do you have to disclose that you complete a 6hr internet defensive driving course in order to lower a fine for a minor traffic ticket that was years ago?
 
Unregistered said:
if someone gets a minor in possesion of alcohol and decides todo community service, go to an alcohol education class at the university student center, and pay 100 dolars of court fees in lieu of getting a conviction (higher fine and guilty of mip in record,but no class attended), ie the case was closed as no contest does he still need to disclose it on the medical even if it was 4 years before??? No motor vehicle was invovled in the incident and the subject has a clean record.

also, do you have to disclose that you complete a 6hr internet defensive driving course in order to lower a fine for a minor traffic ticket that was years ago?
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I sure hope you are not the anon who posted in medical matters tonight.

The trouble with having a record is determining which truth is appropriate.

Here is the queston:

"History of (1) any arrest(s) and/or conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s) and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving priveleges or whcih resulted in attendance at an education or a rehabilitation program."

So your hoping that the things you describe are not:
"(1) an administrative action that resulted in your taking an internet educational program" and that it is not (1) an administrative action that resulted in you attending a university education program".

I think getting required to give evidence of "an accredited internet educational course" and going to a "university alcohol education program" in lieu, is in fact "an administrative action which resulted in attendance at an education program" and that you are thinking wishfully.

You need to report it. When you get your next one, if you've omitted, for this fact of the omission and for nothing else, you will lose all your PILOT CERTIFICATES.

I am in a position to know; I'm one of the 100 alcohol accredited "HIMS AMEs". You should see the crazy-_ss stuff the guys who drink on weekends or stone try to get by. Then they cry "nobody told me!",as they apply for sponsorship after revocation, monitoring programs, and protest that the repeated psychiatric evaluations are "too expensive".

The FAA is making the statement that there is no place in aviation for someone who does alcohol or any substance. Even MIP. If you do it twice, you're out. If you lie, you lose everything.

Lying to Uncle Sam will eventually result, after your first ATO violation or first incident's investigation, in the loss of both your medical and Pilot certificates. This was a congressionally ordered position on the agency's part.

I had the sad duty today of infomring one of my sponsored pilots that his repeated missing his monitoring appointments with me will result in his revocation by the end of the month. This was done by certified mail, today. He has to make an appointment in the next 12 working days, make it stick, or he is in violation of the terms of his special issuance. He whines all the time about the montiroing program. But I say to him, "Hey, YOU got the violation, not I, and I've been giving you the best shake you can get."

Don't get that far along. It's not pretty. I would put spending money on the multi rating on hold until this is sorted out. You may be okay, or you might be headed for a career in insurance, depending on the court record, which they will demand. If there is an officer's description of your behavior, it will be medically evaluated. Some states don't have that so the outcome of this report remains, "It depends".
 
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Unregistered said:
if someone gets a minor in possesion of alcohol and decides todo community service, go to an alcohol education class at the university student center, and pay 100 dolars of court fees in lieu of getting a conviction (higher fine and guilty of mip in record,but no class attended), ie the case was closed as no contest does he still need to disclose it on the medical even if it was 4 years before??? No motor vehicle was invovled in the incident and the subject has a clean record.

also, do you have to disclose that you complete a 6hr internet defensive driving course in order to lower a fine for a minor traffic ticket that was years ago?
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The short answer is that both must be reported.

That said, if you filled out, signed, and submitted an 8500-8 after those events without reporting them, you need to stop posting anything about that here, get an aviation attorney at once, and tell that attorney (and only that attorney) the whole story with nothing left out. Then take that attorney's legal advice on how to extricate yourself from a very serious legal mess which could, if the FAA finds out about it independently, result in anything from revocation of all your FAA certificates to, at least in theory, a Federal felony conviction with jail time.

Does that get your undivided attention? I sure hope so, because that failure to report would be a very serious matter.
 
Unregistered said:
ie the case was closed as no contest. . . .
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Something in your post makes no sense to me. "No contest" (or "nolo contendere"), does not mean that charges were dropped. It means that you neither plead guilty nor innocent, but that you do not contest the charges-- in other words, you are accepting a finding of guilty, without admitting that you did it. So, when you say "no contest" that in no way indicates to me that the case was simply closed with no conviction.

But my simple answer is, "Yes, both must be reported. Period."
 
I got a question for y'all. I was givin a ticket 5 years ago for possession of marijuana. Then went to court and the judge said "Case dismissed" so all i had was the ticket and no conviction. When i went in for the medical exam, on the application where it says were were you ever charged of a feloney or misdemeanor I checked yes, not fully realizing that i wasn't charged with a conviction and that all got sent off to the FAA. Now i have the FAA up my ass with them wanting me to take drug tests and these addiction evaluations. So my question is if i screwed up on the application can i go back and have that all changed or is it to late for that? Am i screwed?
 
Cwelsh89 said:
I got a question for y'all. I was givin a ticket 5 years ago for possession of marijuana. Then went to court and the judge said "Case dismissed" so all i had was the ticket and no conviction. When i went in for the medical exam, on the application where it says were were you ever charged of a feloney or misdemeanor I checked yes, not fully realizing that i wasn't charged with a conviction and that all got sent off to the FAA. Now i have the FAA up my ass with them wanting me to take drug tests and these addiction evaluations. So my question is if i screwed up on the application can i go back and have that all changed or is it to late for that? Am i screwed?
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What you posted is somewhat self-contradictory and perhaps inaccurate. You need to take all the paperwork (including the marijuana case and your FAA medical application) to an aviation attorney and get a competent legal opinion. My personal opinion is that you are hosed because you provided the information to the FAA, and you can't unring that bell, but you need competent legal advice, not my personal opinion.
 
Cwelsh89 said:
I got a question for y'all. I was givin a ticket 5 years ago for possession of marijuana. Then went to court and the judge said "Case dismissed" so all i had was the ticket and no conviction. When i went in for the medical exam, on the application where it says were were you ever charged of a feloney or misdemeanor I checked yes, not fully realizing that i wasn't charged with a conviction and that all got sent off to the FAA. Now i have the FAA up my ass with them wanting me to take drug tests and these addiction evaluations. So my question is if i screwed up on the application can i go back and have that all changed or is it to late for that? Am i screwed?
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cwelsh, the arrest has to be reported and in most states when they reduce it to a civil "ticket" it's a misdemeanor. Data tapes are at the FAA for the last eight years, so they would have found out anyway and revoked any pilot certificate earned when you falsely omitted reporting.

Thsi is not about "is there a record of" or "what do I have to mark to get the desired result". This is about what is, and I commend you for reporting.

Bottom line: You will be asked (REQUIRED) to obtain a Drug and alcohol evaluation by an SAP (usually about $150); be sure they use FAA format. No checkboxes, please.

You'l need a current DL search going back to age 16, and hope it shows this is your one-and-only.

If it was more than five years ago (and not three days short of five years), the letters from persons identifiable in the community (a boss, a pastor, etc...) as to your promptness, lack of "last minute no-shows", reliability...etc will go a long way.

If they are sufficient and you have only one event on your certirfied record (you need to do an FBI search at your local police station, too), you'll be issued with a warning, from the agency.

If the letters are not sufficient or you are 4.8 years in the past, you can be issued by a HIMS AME Medical Sponsor, on an OKC approval with a twelve month "They call you pee" monitoring plan. If you do well for a year, the plan will be dropped and you will be eligible for regular issuance. Usually such programs are about $60 per month.
 
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Even if i was not arrested it was just a ticket with no conviction (didnt even have to pay a fine or take drug classes or anything), I would still have something like this on my record? I will go speak to a lawyer tomorrow. I just dont know enough about the FAA laws. or i might be moving to Canada after all. Lol Thanks for the input!
 
Wow, it's been a very long time since I read a thread that made me feel so ill.

When our gummint can revoke flying privileges due to 15 year old traffic offenses, we have a sad situation, indeed. How have we let this situation develop to the point where there is seemingly no common sense at all?

Every day we hear new stories like this about our "representative" government, and it's just shameful. What have we become?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...
 
I really don't want this poor fellow's string (and cwelsh's sidebar) to become political. But is is apparent that there is an opportunity coming up this November Sixth. It's just....inescapable.

I do have a charter captain who had to wait in the terminal all day (as in, Not Really in Toronto, but in the international holding area) for his charter-ee to return. He had a DUI and went to rehab, recovery, and was recertified and IS on a monitoring program. He's starting the Canadian process as we speak.....
 
bbchien said:
I really don't want this poor fellow's string (and cwelsh's sidebar) to become political. But is is apparent that there is an opportunity coming up this November Sixth. It's just....inescapable.
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Oberstar is out, and apparently James Inhofe rules the day. What else could you want?

Can you honestly say that the FAA regulatory environment (airman medical certification, enforcement actions, part 135 backlog) is worse now than five years ago?

Didn't think so :)
 
alaskaflyer said:
Oberstar is out, and apparently James Inhofe rules the day. What else could you want?

Can you honestly say that the FAA regulatory environment (airman medical certification, enforcement actions, part 135 backlog) is worse now than five years ago?

Didn't think so :)
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Agree, I don't think much of congress, but they're not the main problem here (See PBOR). It’s the entrenched bureaucrats. They have power and they want more and more.....
 
jbarrass said:
Agree, I don't think much of congress, but they're not the main problem here (See PBOR). It’s the entrenched bureaucrats. They have power and they want more and more.....
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Actually I think the opposite, and there has been positive (non-partisan) movement in that area since the 2008 elections.

Yes FAA rulemaking is controlled by the Executive Branch. But it is often in response (or its direction is strongly influenced by) Congress specifically certain committees or subcommittees or single powerful members, not to mention current events such as aircraft-related fatalities.

But I'm thinking of all the positive things that have happened recently, including some strongly-influential (in a bad way) M.O.C. who were de-elected from both sides of the "aisle" last time.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Oberstar is out, and apparently James Inhofe rules the day. What else could you want?

Can you honestly say that the FAA regulatory environment (airman medical certification, enforcement actions, part 135 backlog) is worse now than five years ago?

Didn't think so :)
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Well, I 'm reacting to the increasing reach of the bureacracy. 20 years ago you might do you medical app yourself. Now it's getting to the point where you need somebody to review everything for you. It's like accountancy and the IRS....

Good, Bad, Warranted, Not Warranted? I'm not saying, it's just an observation.
 
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