Planning my longest XC yet

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iMooniac
Well... It's gonna cost a small fortune, but I have to get out to Sunriver, OR in August for a family reunion and if I don't get there via GA I'll probably be kicking myself for the rest of my life. So, I'm gonna do it. :yes:

Now, I need to start planning. Great circle is 1389nm and goes roughly as follows:

KMSN Madison, WI
KAUM Austin, MN
KPIR Pierre, SD
W43 Hulett, WY
KSHR Sheridan, WY
KWYS West Yellowstone, MT
KLLJ Challis, ID
S21 Sunriver, OR

I'm basically budgeting two days there, and two days back. I'll be flying a C182, 130KTAS, 6 hours of fuel.

Goals during planning:

* Cheap fuel
* See the must-see sights
* Claim some fields for ConUS
* Land at some of the fields I've driven past.

I'll also want some food at some point, so knowing where I can stop for a $100 burger or grab a courtesy car would be great. I know all too well that a lot of places out that way are, shall we say, sparse. I'd also like to plan a couple of different potential stop-for-the-night points to give some flexibility. I'd also kind of like to vary the route somewhat on the outbound and return trips so I see different sights... Maybe I should do 94 or US 12 on the way out and 90 on the way back or something.

Suggest away! :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
* See the must-see sights
* Claim some fields for ConUS
* Land at some of the fields I've driven past.
Click to expand...

Okay, so I should add some details...

1) I'd really like to stop in at West Yellowstone.
2) I'd really like to see Mount Rushmore, Crazy Horse, and Devil's Tower
3) I have never taken a mountain flying course, so I'd like to hopefully do that on the way out. Who and where?
 
Both KSHR (Sheridan, WY) and KGCC (Gillette, WY) have courtesy cars. Gillette is not too far from Devil's Tower. KCOD (Cody, WY) might make a good stop for the night. The Buffalo Bill Museum is pretty interesting.
 
Kent, while I have no suggestions for you (since I've never flown out in that area), it sounds like a great trip! Make sure to take lots of pictures and write up a detailed account of the trip when it happens!
 
You're going to have fun, Kent. Taking a mountain flying course is high on my list too. Everybody I've talked to has suggested the same lady/place:

Lori MacNichol, McCall Mountain/Canyon Flying Seminars, LLC at 208-634-1344
or e-mail lori@mountaincanyonflying.com
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Okay, so I should add some details...

1) I'd really like to stop in at West Yellowstone.
2) I'd really like to see Mount Rushmore, Crazy Horse, and Devil's Tower
3) I have never taken a mountain flying course, so I'd like to hopefully do that on the way out. Who and where?
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Stopped in Custer. The "rental" car there was, shall we say, "interesting." We made a wrong turn on the way to the hotel and wound up driving the state park there, and going through a herd of Bison. Have some shots of Crazy Horse from the air. We got there too late in the day to really see much on the ground, but we were allowed to at least drive into the parking lot for free (normally a fairly hefty fee) since it was so late.

We came into Custer on an instrument flight plan that took us just past Mt. Rushmore. I was able to put it in a slip so the passengers could see the carving. (Low wing Cessna :):yes: )

When we landed at West Yellowstone, their only runway was closed. They were using the taxiway as the runway, including for Part 121 ops. Took a car into the park at midnight and drove along the river with the lights out to see wildlife and stars. Could see satellites going by. Looked like someone took a paint brush and just splashed the sky. It was even better with binoculars!


We weren't doing and low valley flying, so we didn't do the mountain flying course. Not that it's a bad idea! :no:

And yes, you will definitely remember this trip!
 
Ditto on Custer! Perhaps Wall vs Pierre, altho I've never landed at Pierre (btw, it's pronounced "Peer" not like the French "pee-AIR") ... Wall Drug is walking distance ... most famous tourist trap in the country! :)
 
KAUM: I always raced up and down on the runway on my dirtbike as a kid. The airport manager didn't appreciate it--nor did he much appreciate the crop dusting operation my family had there. Same manager even today.
 
I should clarify - I've already been to Mount Rushmore, Devil's Tower, etc. on the ground - I want to see them from the air. :) Heck, I've been darn near everywhere on the ground. I want to stop at West Yellowstone 'cuz I've had to drive past it a couple of times. :) (They have 121 ops there?!?)

I have not been to Wall Drug, though I've driven right past it a few times. Greg, do they have food there? That might make a good lunch stop or something.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I should clarify - I've already been to Mount Rushmore, Devil's Tower, etc. on the ground - I want to see them from the air. :) Heck, I've been darn near everywhere on the ground. I want to stop at West Yellowstone 'cuz I've had to drive past it a couple of times. :) (They have 121 ops there?!?)

I have not been to Wall Drug, though I've driven right past it a few times. Greg, do they have food there? That might make a good lunch stop or something.
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Well, I know you haven't done the drive we did through the state park near Custer, at least not with your rig. Know how I know? Because we encountered a full rig there pretty much stuck because he had attempted one of the hairpin turns that was a little too hairpin. He'd already blown one tire on the rocks while trying to back out of the spot.

Yup, they had 121 ops at KWYS. Actually, a nice little airport! (8400x150, at about 6500' elev.)
 
Budget 3 days there and 3 days back.

No need for a course if you pick the right route. I was never above 8,500 on my way out there. But I went a little further north than you want to.
 
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EdFred said:
Budget 3 days there and 3 days back.
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I would think that would be a little excessive. We did it without pushing to Custer in a day, and back from Great Falls also in a day. Admittedly our airplane was a bit faster, but 2 days would seem to be more than sufficient for this. Heck, we're only budgeting 2 - 3 days up to Alaska! Now, I'm talking about days of pretty much nothing but flying, not including sight-seeing trips along the way.
 
Kent,

A direct line from West Yellowstone to Challis takes you across some fairly tall ridges. If you want to feel like you are mountain flying, head down towards Arco-Butte KAOC, then follow the valley up to Challis. Challis had reasonable fuel prices when I was there a few years ago. There are two places to get fuel, the northern most FBO was the best place. At the city run one, the guy hid in his office and would not unlock the door. Challlis sits in a reasonably wide valley so patterns are "normal", you just need to know how to lean for takeoff. If you want to experience the back country from a nice accessible strip, head from Challis to Smiley Creek U87. It is a 4900 ft grass strip at about 7100ft elevation sitting in a nice wide valley. The strip is incredibly well maintained and there is a resturaunt/bar/grocery store just across the street. The food is good and if you are spending the night, the bar has Alaskan Amber Beer.
From Challis, follow the road to Stanley 2U7, then turn south down to Smiley Creek. The Sawtooth mountains will be on your right.

The easiest way to get from Yellowstone to Sun River would be to follow the Boise Basin. There are less rocks in the way. It can be pretty if you fly along the north edge.

Barb
 
One Short said:
From Challis, follow the road to Stanley 2U7, then turn south down to Smiley Creek. The Sawtooth mountains will be on your right.
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The Sawtooths (Sawteeth?) and the area around Stanley is very beautiful. So is the area around Jackson Hole and KJAC. Some other interesting places to view from the air are Craters of the Moon and Hell's Canyon, both in Idaho.
 
gprellwitz said:
I would think that would be a little excessive. We did it without pushing to Custer in a day, and back from Great Falls also in a day. Admittedly our airplane was a bit faster, but 2 days would seem to be more than sufficient for this. Heck, we're only budgeting 2 - 3 days up to Alaska! Now, I'm talking about days of pretty much nothing but flying, not including sight-seeing trips along the way.
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I planned that as well when I did the trip in 2005, but quickly said "nuh-uh" once I got to Sioux Falls.
 
EdFred said:
Budget 3 days there and 3 days back.

No need for a course if you pick the right route. I was never above 8,500 on my way out there. But I went a little further north than you want to.
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EdFred said:
I planned that as well when I did the trip in 2005, but quickly said "nuh-uh" once I got to Sioux Falls.
Click to expand...

Well Ed, I couldn't sit in a Cherokee for that long either. ;)

I don't *have* to get there in two, but I'd like to. However, I'd also like the trip out to be all during daylight hours. The trip back, daylight hours for the first part, but since I have no desire to see the eastern Dakotas, MN, WI again I wouldn't mind some night on the 2nd day on the way back. I probably do have to get back in 2 days.

FWIW, I've done EFD->SIK->MSN in one day (894.2nm), 8.8 hours in the 182 as well, and not been so beat at the end I couldn't have done more. I think my plan is going to be to make it to WYS the first day and that's only about 50nm farther.

Wow... Just looked at the Airnav entry for West Yellowstone. 24 comments, and every last one of them is positive - That's rare! Sounds like they have "courtesy bikes" as well as cars. Sweet.
 
Keep us posted - I have to make the same trip next year and am already in pre-planning stages.

Robbie Culver
 
Keep in mind August is the warmest month of the year, and you may not want to be flying any time after noon. I was at 9500 feet and OAT at that altitude was still 75 degrees. You will not want to be up there long. Plus any winds over 20kts and you are probably not going to want to try crossing the Rocks. The 3 days isn't so much just from time in the air, but also getting through the pointy stuff.
 
One Short said:
A direct line from West Yellowstone to Challis takes you across some fairly tall ridges.
Click to expand...

Oops... I should have been clearer. In the original post, those airports weren't necessarily stops, but just points along the great circle route so people would have an idea where that route was. I sure didn't!

So, the plan so far is:


Land/.....ID....Waypoint..........State.Comments
Overfly.........Name................
T.........KMSN..Dane Co Reg'l.......WI..
L..563nm..6V4...Wall Muni...........SD..Eat @ Wall Drug
O...51nm..SD70..Rushmore Heli.......SD..
O...10nm..0SD9..Crazy Horse Heli....SD..
O...65nm..none..Devil's Tower.......WY..
L..273nm..KWYS..West Yellowstone....MT..Overnight
L..212nm..KMYL..McCall Muni.........ID..Mountain flying instruction
L..237nm..S21...Sunriver............OR..Destination


If you want to feel like you are mountain flying, head down towards Arco-Butte KAOC, then follow the valley up to Challis. Challis had reasonable fuel prices when I was there a few years ago.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info... I may stop in there after all. :)

need to know how to lean for takeoff.
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So, with a constant speed prop, would that just be peak EGT (in a full-throttle runup)? We have an EGT gauge that is single-probe but it is digital at least.

The easiest way to get from Yellowstone to Sun River would be to follow the Boise Basin. There are less rocks in the way. It can be pretty if you fly along the north edge.
Click to expand...

Well, unless I find a better-located mountain flying outfit, I'll be heading to McCall in between. Once I figure out where I want to stop for sure, then I'll add in any additional waypoints or geographic routes to come up with the final route.

I also need to return, which I'd kind of like to do on at least a slightly different route. Because I don't mind doing the last 3-4 hours of the return trip after dark, I should have some more dawdling time on the way back. :yes:
 
One other thing to consider: Oxygen. I may want a portable O2 system just due to the potential for needing to be up high for extended periods. I've gone to 13,500 without O2 before, but obviously not for all that long. I have spent significant time at 12,500, but it's not the most pleasant feeling. :no: With such a long trip, I'm mostly thinking about O2 above 10,000 simply to stave off fatigue. Suggestions?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
One other thing to consider: Oxygen. I may want a portable O2 system just due to the potential for needing to be up high for extended periods. I've gone to 13,500 without O2 before, but obviously not for all that long. I have spent significant time at 12,500, but it's not the most pleasant feeling. :no: With such a long trip, I'm mostly thinking about O2 above 10,000 simply to stave off fatigue. Suggestions?
Click to expand...
I agree, portable O2 wouldn't be bad to have, but it's not necessary. OTOH, perhaps Chris has some you can borrow? Didn't he and Rachel use it on their trip a year or two ago?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
With such a long trip, I'm mostly thinking about O2 above 10,000 simply to stave off fatigue. Suggestions?
Click to expand...

The biggest advantage of bottled O2 at that altitude is freshening your mind. You won't pass out at 12,500 if you're fit enough to pass a Medical, but after a while up there you may get a headache, may get cranky, etc.
:mad:

The O2 really helps clear things up a bit!
 
...but once you go above 14,000 w/o O2 you feel it in a hurry. Don't ask me how I know.
 
dmccormack said:
The biggest advantage of bottled O2 at that altitude is freshening your mind. You won't pass out at 12,500 if you're fit enough to pass a Medical, but after a while up there you may get a headache, may get cranky, etc.
:mad:

The O2 really helps clear things up a bit!
Click to expand...

The biggest effect I notice when I'm up that high for a significant length of time is that my heart starts... I dunno, not pounding, but "laboring" maybe. Trying to compensate, I guess. It's kinda hard to explain, but I notice it. It also does contribute to fatigue.

The other thing is, that if I have to do some IFR flying, some of the MEA's are pretty high. I found a route last night that has MEA's no higher than 13,500 (and that was only one segment) but I might have to be up there for more than a half hour, and I don't want to get stupid if I'm in actual.

Finally, the plane's service ceiling is 18,000 at gross, and I'll be more than 500 pounds under gross so the plane should be capable of climbing up into the flight levels if needed, but I'll need O2 to get there. I don't anticipate going that high, but... It's just another option. Heck, I could probably get some extremely favorable winds aloft on the way back. :)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Finally, the plane's service ceiling is 18,000 at gross, and I'll be more than 500 pounds under gross so the plane should be capable of climbing up into the flight levels if needed, but I'll need O2 to get there. I don't anticipate going that high, but... It's just another option. Heck, I could probably get some extremely favorable winds aloft on the way back. :)
Click to expand...

Have you had the a/c up that high yet?

I haven't flown a SEL yet that can make service ceiling in any reasonable amount of time/distance (50 FPM takes 20 min to climb 1000 feet -- all the while at low GS).
 
EdFred said:
Keep in mind August is the warmest month of the year, and you may not want to be flying any time after noon. I was at 9500 feet and OAT at that altitude was still 75 degrees.
Click to expand...

Really? I was over Texas at 12,500 in July and it was below freezing.

It's a dry heat though. ;) Seriously, in MT in the summer (and even somewhat in the winter) I have trouble cleaning my windshield because the liquid evaporates before I can squeegee it off, and the dirt just stays. So, aside from the emergency water I'll have in the back, I'll need to remember to bring plenty to drink too.

Speaking of which... Supplies! I'll have my PLB of course, and I'm planning on putting a gallon or two of emergency water on board. What else? (And this time, I won't be going to Gaston's first, so Steve can't replace my emergency gallon of water with the two emergency cases of beer I ended up with last time! :rofl:)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
FWIW, I've done EFD->SIK->MSN in one day (894.2nm), 8.8 hours in the 182 as well, and not been so beat at the end I couldn't have done more. I think my plan is going to be to make it to WYS the first day and that's only about 50nm farther.
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Do you have portable oxygen you can bring? Can make a huge difference on staying alert/rested/focused, even if you're staying low (8500 was mentioned).

EDIT: Never mind... once again I comment before reading the whole thread. WHEN WILL I LEARN!?
 
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dmccormack said:
Have you had the a/c up that high yet?

I haven't flown a SEL yet that can make service ceiling in any reasonable amount of time/distance (50 FPM takes 20 min to climb 1000 feet -- all the while at low GS).
Click to expand...

I've had it up to 13,500 and it was still climbing pretty well - 600fpm, maybe even a little better. I do cruise climbs at 105mph (90kt) indicated, and at 12,500 I'm still indicating 125 in level flight.

Service ceiling is 100fpm climb, and that's at gross. 500 pounds less should mean I'd be climbing faster than 100fpm though I don't know how to calculate exactly how much faster.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Do you have portable oxygen you can bring? Can make a huge difference on staying alert/rested/focused, even if you're staying low (8500 was mentioned).

EDIT: Never mind... once again I comment before reading the whole thread. WHEN WILL I LEARN!?
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:rofl:

FWIW, I have done extended flights at 11,500 and 12,500 without O2. Heck, I've driven up to 11,158! :)

I think I will at least buy a pulse oximeter. It'll be interesting to see what goes on way up there. :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well... It's gonna cost a small fortune, but I have to get out to Sunriver, OR in August for a family reunion
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I go to Sunriver annually for my family's reunion. You're gonna love it. It'll be well worth the small fortune. Great little airport and resort community. Take your clubs if you're a golfer.

Can't help you with routing as I fly up from SoCal. But the PNW has some of the most beautiful flying there is.
 
Okay, thanks to the new table functionality...

[row][cell]Land/Overfly[/cell][cell]ID[/cell][cell]Waypoint name[/cell][cell]State[/cell][cell]MEF[/cell][cell]MIA[/cell][cell]Comments[/cell][/row][row][cell]T[/cell][cell]KMSN[/cell][cell]Dane Co. Reg'l[/cell][cell]WI[/cell][/row][row][cell]L[/cell][cell]6V4[/cell][cell]Wall Muni[/cell][cell]SD[/cell][cell]3700[/cell][cell]Eat @ Wall Drug[/cell][/row][row][cell]O[/cell][cell]SD70[/cell][cell]Rushmore Heli[/cell][cell]SD[/cell][/row][row][cell]O[/cell][cell]0SD9[/cell][cell]Crazy Horse Heli[/cell][cell]SD[/cell][/row][row][cell]O[/cell][cell]none[/cell][cell]Devil's Tower[/cell][cell]WY[/cell][/row][row][cell]L[/cell][cell]KWYS[/cell][cell]West Yellowstone[/cell][cell]MT[/cell][cell]Overnight[/cell][/row][row][cell]L[/cell][cell]KMYL[/cell][cell]McCall Muni[/cell][cell]ID[/cell][cell]Mountain course[/cell][/row][row][cell]L[/cell][cell]S21[/cell][cell]Sunriver[/cell][cell]OR[/cell][/row]
 
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Not sure if this page renders right for everyone...but Kent's post above mine pretty much destroyed the page. Things get tricky when you start injecting tables into a page if the module isn't built to deal with user error.
 
jesse said:
Not sure if this page renders right for everyone...but Kent's post above mine pretty much destroyed the page. Things get tricky when you start injecting tables into a page if the module isn't built to deal with user error.
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Yeah, it screwed it up the page for me too. His table breaks the left "info bar", and his signature line is above (before) his post, and totally outside the post.

EDIT: Did you change something, Jesse? Looks ok now, after posting the comment/refreshing.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Yeah, it screwed it up the page for me too. His table breaks the left "info bar", and his signature line is above (before) his post, and totally outside the post.

EDIT: Did you change something, Jesse? Looks ok now, after posting the comment/refreshing.
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Looks fine to me, FWIW.
 
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