Planned flight this weekend

ChrisK

ChrisK

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Toph
I've mentioned this flight before, but now I think I'm ready to do it. I'm not entirely sure if my skin is thick enough to post my plans here, but:

http://goo.gl/s6ZNj

I'm doing it pretty much only if the ceilings are >10k / CAVU from Friday early evening to Monday morning (and am willing to change my plans / drive if I am the LEAST BIT UNCOMFORTABLE with the weather). I'm going to call a briefer to file my VFR flight plan and ask about the Canadian overflight (to ensure I follow required ATC procedures). I have obtained the required FCC RRTO permit, and plan on having over water safety / survival gear, donned for the over water portions. I do NOT plan on bringing a raft however. The lake water temp is a balmy 75 degrees, and the weekend will be a bit warm. I plan on flying at 8500'.

The aircraft I'm using has dual com and nav radios and DME. I'm doing a full paper nav log and a marked sectional. I will also have an iPad with built-in GPS / Foreflight on my lap and an Android phone with Naviator mounted on the glare shield.

I have several alternate airports both near my destination, on both sides of the water, and on the islands along the route. The entire flight should take about an hour and be completed about 30-45 minutes before sunset.

I will have the 7 year old who seems to love it in an airplane along with me, a small amount of luggage for the weekend, and will be flying the 1979 160hp Cessna 172N that appears to be in excellent shape, that flies like a dream, and that my instructor highly recommended to me for "family trips".

Flame suit on!
 
Flame? Why?

You're flying over water, but following islands with charted airports on them.

What's the problem? Just 'cause you're a new pilot? Everyone has to have a first trip.

8500 isn't a VFR altitude for your over-water leg. I'd suggest 9500 for the extra glide distance. 7500 is closer to the best true airspeed without exceeding 75% power, but there isn't a big difference to 9500. Take a pulse-ox just in case; mild hypoxia feels remarkably like mild intoxication (with similar effects on judgment and reactions), and you won't know anything is wrong.

Do make sure you get flight following if at all possible. Don't do this at night or anywhere near evening twilight. I believe you have to file a DVFR flight plan because of the Canadian overflight.

Have fun!
 
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Watch the wx carefully, and don't settle. You just can't be too careful with the Great Lakes. Also, watch if there's mist, which there often is. 7 miles in mist is good vis, but if you're 10 miles from shore you've a view of nothing but mist and water. A good way to join JFK Jr. in DAvy jones locker. I'll echo what the other fellow said, don't get caught over the lake at night, dark sky on dark lake can act similarly.

I am considering an overwater flight in darkness and the thought just scares the willies out of me. But if I have a clear sky full of stars, I think I can do it. And if I can't, I can always detour over land.
 
No flaming, but I now realize that I must have come within 50' of the FIR when I did a quick trip out of Put-in-Bay around North Bass Island and back! :) At 8,500 you'll be above the Class B, so hopefully they won't try vectoring you around much.
 
Mmm... looks good to me. At least, that's how I fly that route. And, if I can't get high enough to suit over the islands, I nip over to Toledo and go up the shoreline - certainly no need to cancel over non-CAVU conditions. (Although, some would say it can get dicey up the river, trying to stay out of Canada and the Bravo - not to mention any ball games that might be happening in Detroit. But, I have a low-level visual route that avoids all the mess.)

Re the Canada overflight, I didn't know that FSS was in the business of giving regulatory advice ... I suggest looking it up for yourself.
Or, you can take my word for it (which I wouldn't):
- On an active flight plan
- Squawking an ATC-assigned code
- Talking

I'm typically handed off Cleveland Center, Detroit Approach, Selfridge Approach - or the reverse, depending. Although, I may have gone directly between Cleveland and Selfridge (or vice versa).
 
I appreciate all of the encouragement here. This is the first XC since the checkride and will add a couple of new challenges. This exact trip was one of the primary reasons I started training in the first place, and I have been thinking about it through all of the phases of my training.

JoeSelch said:
Re the Canada overflight, I didn't know that FSS was in the business of giving regulatory advice ... I suggest looking it up for yourself.
Or, you can take my word for it (which I wouldn't):
- On an active flight plan
- Squawking an ATC-assigned code
- Talking
Click to expand...

I have read both the official web sites and the AOPA page on the subject and it seems to me that as long as I can get flight following and an on a VFR flight plan I am good the whole way. As I said on the other Canada thread, what if they can't provide services? I have never been turned down, so we will see.

Lots of good advice here, and the fact that I can stay in the US and follow the coast is important to remember, especially if ATC tries to get me to go surfing....
 
Looks like a fun flight for you and your son. Are you doing any fishing? My first flight was about an hour to a restaurant with my family. We met up and followed my DPE and his wife in loose trail. We kept under 1.5 hrs one way while renting. After owning our first trip was 700 nm/4.5 hrs non stop. Those first trips to somewhere new are very exciting and nerve racking. Just always be flexible and willing to sleep in an fbo or the plane if the need arises. My family loves the long trips, but we never plan on being home at any certain time. One thing I would never fly without is xm on board weather. I have Foreflight, but above 3000' agl you will loose 3G most of the time. I agree with 8500' and 9500' legs.

I would try to be on the ground at least 2 hrs before sunset. Know your ditching procedure, check ELT, carry two flashlights, carry a PLB, pack small survival kit, know your crosswind landings and instruments. Fill the tanks and sump them good. Fill oil to max recommended by your A&P and carry a spare. Take some Plexus and a microfiber cloth. As one post mentioned, it is ifr when hazy over water and gave me a weird sensation until I believed my instruments.
 
> what if they can't provide services?

Then you do not meet the requirements for crossing the int'l border.
Detroit CBP *really* watches this route. It's a *prime* hunting ground
for them.

If ATC radar is out of service, they may expect you:

- To circumnavigate
- Or; make std position reports. Do you know how-to make a proper
position report?

What could happen?

- You might be intercepted by CBP/USCG/ANG/PD and escorted to an
airport of their choosing and greeted (rushed) by humorless fellows
w/guns, wearing flight suits. It's considerably higher-energy than a traffic
stop. Bring a change of underwear for yourself and your son.

- And/or; met on the ground at your destination by CBP boots or local LE.
Typically, a lower-energy event. Probably one step-up from a traffic stop.

- And/or; you may receive a phone call or letter from the FAA asking you
to stop by and explain yourself. NORDO would likely be considered a
deliberate choice, which will nullify the benefits of an ASRS filing. The
Detroit FSDO is a zero-tolerance, 1-strike operation re: border crossing
ops. ATC-wouldn't-talk-to-ME ... is not a satisfactory defense.

- Or; nothing, nada, non, zero, zip, zilch.

Words twice: Detroit CBP *really* watches this route. It's a *prime*
hunting ground for them.

10 miles viz and haze will be an IMC adventure over the water. Add-in a
sun low in the sky, and it only gets worse. It won't be a gradual change.
It'll be; POOF, you are IMC. Really.

> The lake water temp is a balmy 75 degrees,

- Bull****. 75F water will incapacitate you. Typically 90-120 minutes of
*useful* conciousness & dexterity. Beyond that, you are just
meat-in-the-water, watching the world go by. Rafts are important.

>> carry a PLB

- A GPS-equipped PLB ... takes the "search" out of Search & Rescue. It
is really hard to spot heads bobbing in the water from 300' and 90 knots.
Especially hard if waves are breaking even a little bit.

- Please use first-class (inflatable) flotation gear, not the basic
rowboat/canoe gear sold in the sporting goods aisle. Does it FIT your
7 year-old? Not kind'a, sort'a fit ... DOES IT *FIT* HIM?

- If you end up swimming, will you have line that allows you to tether
your son? It's surprisingly easy to become separated in open water.

- Is your flashlight waterproof? (Not water resistant.) If you end-up
swimming at night, a flashlight pointed straight up is quite a beacon for
anyone (USCG) wearing NVGs. Point it at them ... and you've created a
problem.

- Is your survival gear (flashlight, mirror, PLB, etc) in a vest or somehow
tethered? As you lose dexterity, it goes adrift.

- In the event that you require rescue:

-- It'll take 30 mins for USCG to launch a helo ... IF one is available.

-- Air Stn Detroit (@ MTC) is ~30 mins away. Buffalo, a bit further. If
the only available helo & crew launch from TVC, MKG or PWK ... it'll be
several hours before they arrive to begin working ... and they'll stop to
refuel before going feet wet. My advice? Plan/prepare for spending 24
hours in the water; or more.

Other considerations:

- Have a CCW/CPL? Leave the gun at home. If you make an unanticipated
landing in Canada, having a handgun becomes a significant inhibitor to your
welcome & departure.

- There is an uncharted skydiving op between Romeo and Marine City. It is
a busy operation. Talk to Selfridge Approach (119.6) for help avoiding the
meat missles.

- Take your passports. In the event that you need to land in Canada and
re-enter the USA ... it is one less thing for CBP to hammer you over.
 
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> not to mention any ball games that might be happening in Detroit.

Night games on Sat & Sun. Afternoon game on Mon. If the TFR is
active, the airspace is quite constrained. See my UNOFFICIAL
mapping of the TFRs.

Note: This "Garmin" map misrepresents the boundary of the Windsor CZ. See
the current TAC for the correct boundary.
 

Attachments

  • TFRs for Tiger Stadium & Ford Field.pdf
    145.2 KB · Views: 8
Looks good, you'll make altitude before the lake and always have an airport or at least island to glide to. When you calculate your 'turn/don't turn' points don't forget to calculate them with actual winds. Have fun, and CAVU is unnecessary. Having scattered layers is not a problem.
 
Henning said:
Looks good, you'll make altitude before the lake and always have an airport or at least island to glide to. When you calculate your 'turn/don't turn' points don't forget to calculate them with actual winds. Have fun, and CAVU is unnecessary. Having scattered layers is not a problem.
Click to expand...

I don't like the forecast. I might end up driving this weekend and flying some other time :)
 
Henning said:
Might as well not have a license then....(damn, no 'pot stir' smilie...)
Click to expand...
I am sure I will find enough opportunity for unanticipated wx without risking a bad forecast. In any case it is only Tuesday. Still have time for it to get better, and I can always fly it some other weekend!
 
Tis probably better that way. As Rainsux says, if you so much as inhale you will die a horrible agonizing death making your planed flight this weekend. :rolleyes: ;)
 
Rainsux - sounds like you've witnessed severe enforcement actions ... On whom (what kinds of pilots)? What were their alleged transgressions? What were their punishments? And, when did this happen?

Your response makes it sound as if you are closely aligned with the powers that be.
 
Sounds like you are doing exactley the right things. Assess the weather based on your personal comfort level. Never let someone push you into a trip that you are not comfortable with. Yes you will miss some some trips that in hindsight you could have easily made, but you will live longer. I do not know about you but I fly for fun, and if I am not having fun then why am I doing it. A raft is a good idea if you are to. BE over water for long. Sounds like you may be a new pilot but using the knowledge you have gained properly. Asking for advice here is fine but in the end it is your butt in that seat. Take some more instrument training rather yhan just the 3 or 4 hours you got during your trianing it will one day pay off. Look at the weather make your decision and drive if that is what you decide, and do not feel bad about it. There will be other days to fly that are much better. Having said all that I would also tell you that some aprehension before a trip is also quite normal and to be expected. It will fade with experience, and thats when you need to be extra diligent in your planning and prep. Spread your wings at your pace and you will have a ball.

Fly safe and annoy your wife by living to be a dirty old man.
 
Chris,

If your flt trng was like mine, you have no or little exposure to anything but great flying weather. I requested some marginal wx flying, but flt school rules would not allow it. So, new pilots are left to either learn wx on their own or pay a CFII to go up with us later. I chose to pay one and the other volunteered. Study the wx, set your minimums- clg/vis and maximum winds. If you get to pattern altitude or anywhere en route and it does not look good, find a place to land. I tell all my nearby pilot friends to call if they ever need a ride. I borrowed a courtesy car to drive 50 mi back home one day at around 90 hrs. The next day(clear skies), I drove back then flew safely back home. Weather forecasting is not very accurate until 24 hrs out, so no need to make any decision now. You have learned 10% in flight training, don't stop asking questions. Some pilots will not tell you all of their misfortunes online. At 225'ish hours, I have had a few. Many have been avoided by hearing other pilots close calls and alot of reading. This hobby is very demanding, expensive and risky...you are now in the 1% group of Americans. Enjoy and fly safe.
 
> As Rainsux says, if you so much as inhale you will die a
> horrible agonizing death ...

Joe,

That is a cheap shot. I expect better of you. It can be and should be a
delightful trip.

Nonetheless; we've got a VERY inexperienced PPL planning his first lake
crossing. Good for him.

IMHO; he has expectations and instincts that are, um, a bit "off." But this
is to be expected of someone low on the learning curve. Thankfully, he is
talking and asking questions. THAT is terrific. Specifically:

- Water temps/safety; 75F water ain't balmy for long enough.
- SAR timelines; be prepared to spend 24+ hours in the water.
- Haze over water obscuring the horizon; occurs suddenly.

> Your response makes it sound as if you are closely aligned with the
> powers that be.

I volunteer as a pilot flying USCG AUXAIR patrols and SAR in this AOR.
Ergo; I am familiar with USCG and CBP ops & options.

If the OP follows the published rules, precisely. I expect no problems from
CBP. At most; a respectful, low-energy encounter.

If he does not precisely follow the published procedures, and substitutes
"seems reasonable to him, logic" it may indeed result in a much higher-
energy encounter with CBP or other LEOs acting on behalf of CBP. No
sense putting a 7 year-old in that situation.

> sounds like you've witnessed severe enforcement actions ... On whom
> (what kinds of pilots)? What were their alleged transgressions? What
> were their punishments? And, when did this happen?

Your request is a bit of a tease that if I take it, could end poorly for me.
All I will say is:

Within the past six months ...

A buddy with MANY flights to:from:eek:ver Canada, recently decided that one
of the published procedures was optional. It ended poorly enough for him,
that he's sworn off trips to:from:eek:ver Canada and ops within 5 miles of the
border. Yes, he's waaay over-reacting. I suspect that all parties involved
in that encounter were experiencing acute testosterone poisoning.
 
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> CAVU is unnecessary. Having scattered layers is not a problem.

ChrisK,

I agree with Henning. A distinct horizon is what you need over big water.
 
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rainsux said:
> CAVU is unnecessary. Having scattered layers is not a problem.

ChrisK,

I agree with Henning. A distinct horizon is what you need.
Click to expand...
Yeah as I was driving into work this morning looking at the relatively thin scattered layers over downtown Cleveland that terminated at the shore (at 4500' and 5500') I was thinking I would fly over those without an issue.
 
RV10flyer said:
If your flt trng was like mine, you have no or little exposure to anything but great flying weather. I requested some marginal wx flying, but flt school rules would not allow it. So, new pilots are left to either learn wx on their own or pay a CFII to go up with us later. I chose to pay one and the other volunteered. Study the wx, set your minimums- clg/vis and maximum winds.
Click to expand...

I have had a little exposure to weather with my instructors and a little without them. I agree that I need more exposure. My instructor basically said "go fly cross country for 25-50 hours, learn stuff, and come back for IR". I'm also keeping in touch with him and running some things (like this thread) by the CFIs at my flight school.

I'm certainly not in my 20's anymore and can look behind me and see my 30's. Aside from the fact that I became a pilot (and unlike my attitude in my 20's), I would say that I'm not interested in taking risks in the sky; that is, every risk I identify better have a mitigation (*cough* "elimination" *cough*) plan. Towards the end of my 75 hours or so of training my tolerances tightened up a bit and I was comfortable capable in a bit more wind and less vis. I certainly don't find bumpy blind flying into gusting crosswinds FUN however, and avoid the kind of conditions that will approach "not so great" simply because they are "not so fun".

My plan at this point is to do some flying that I find enjoyable and useful, expand my envelope without breaking it, deal with situations as they arise, and go find an instructor after I have a couple few dozen XC's under my belt.
 
This is a route I have flown more times than I can count...
I have swam, dived, sailed, and flown these lakes as man and boy for over 70 years and I have great respect for them... They will kill you in a heartbeat..

I fly from mid Michigan and I either go over Lake Erie just West of Pelee Island or go around West of the Detroit B, depending on the weather... I am flying a twin and IFR capable so the lake is of no concern... But I prefer VFR conditions for over water and will cheerfully go around if the weather is not cooperative...


If you have some trepidations about the over lake portion (be smart) then go around the West side of the Detroit B...
From your airport pass North of Oakland/Troy, fly a circle on the outer edge of the inner part of the B so that you pass between Ann Arbor and Willow Run and circle around towards Custer, then angle down across the short end of Lake Erie and then direct to your destination... Should add roughly 30 minutes to the route compared to direct... We fly for fun and an extra 30 minutes is just more fun...
You do not have to worry about being busted for Canadian airspace (a vastly overblown worry - but I'll leave that for another day)...
You do not have to worry about ditching in the water, or carrying life vests, etc..
It can be flown on a 7 mile viz day without any concern...

This route would be my recommendation for a low time pilot when carrying his family... Once you have a few trips under your belt then you can jump the lake (solo first time)

cheers
denny-o
PM me if you have questions...
 
Dr. O said:
If you have some trepidations about the over lake portion (be smart) then go around the West side of the Detroit B...
Click to expand...
Having been born and raised and spent most of my life in the area you describe, your landmarks are quite familiar to me. I will look at the route you suggested.
 
ChrisK said:
In any case it is only Tuesday. Still have time for it to get better, and I can always fly it some other weekend!
Click to expand...

I don't believe any forecast until the day before. I'm still on the ropes for my own flight.

A couple things to think about. Flotation won't work unless you're wearing it. At 75 degrees you've got about an hour to be useful. How far can you swim in an hour? I've been told that the coast guard may come looking for you, but it will take them that long to get moving. Not at all a criticism of the CG, it takes awhile for word to circulate, and aircraft take time to get going.

So at best, by the time they start looking for you you'll be useless. Yes, you can bring a raft, but odds are the aircraft will be upside down and sinking, and you may not have time to get it out. A waterproof flashlight is a really, really good idea, but only if it's in a pocket, you won't have the time or cognizance to pullet out after a ditching.

These are good conversations, really good. At the end of the day we come up with the idea that going over water entails extra risk. There is no getting around it. These are old conversations on this board and others. There are those who won't do it in a single, and those who don't think much of it.

If you fly a lot you will encounter conditions where a malfunction will likely lead to a poor outcome. Flying over any hostile terrain will entail such a scenario. Again, some won't do it in a single, and some of us just grit our teeth and hope the dreaded engine seizure doesn't happen that day. It isn't a forlorn hope, engines don't break often.

I would not caution you to not fly over the lake so new to your PPL because of the extra risk. So long as you have it in mind, you are good to go in my book. I would caution you that the Great Lakes can present challenges to visibility not found on land. I myself would advise you to fly along the shore. I know it adds time, but the view is nice and it might be a good thing to do for the first time out. You can do the lake crossing next time.

I did the Chicago shoreline 5 or 6 times before the first time I crossed Lake Michigan on the way back from Oshkosh. I wasn't able to to di it this year, too much mist and too little vis.

Again, good luck. I've driven plenty of trips too.
 
Well, maybe Steingar has over blown it, maybe not...
Now, Erie is a bit warmer than Huron or Michigan.. You are close to the lake... Get a neighbor with a fishing boat to run you out ten miles or so (watch out for the ship channel) put on your jacket, and jump overboard for an hour by the clock...
Maybe you will come out laughing at us, maybe not... BTW, children lose body heat much faster than adults..
As a Port Huron to Mac deck ape I have been in the water at mid lake for less than an hour and I was shaking by the time I got out...

The smart way to cross the lakes is as you planned, island hop with enough altitude to put the wreckage on the beach, at least...
 
Hey denny you may have heard of the town I went to high school in (Croswell, MI). Not many people I can say that to!
 
Dr. O said:
Well, maybe Steingar has over blown it, maybe not...
Click to expand...

Used to surf 75 degree water, and I couldn't do it for long without a wetsuit. Sounds warm, until you've been in it a half hour. Then it's cold as all get out.

Dr. O said:
The smart way to cross the lakes is as you planned, island hop with enough altitude to put the wreckage on the beach, at least...
Click to expand...

I agree, it does sound like our intrepid pilot has his thinking cap on straight. I hope it works out.

Also, with sufficient altitude and an island hopping course, the aircraft will be constantly within gliding distance of terra firma should the mill decide to quit.
 
ChrisK said:
I have had a little exposure to weather with my instructors and a little without them. I agree that I need more exposure. My instructor basically said "go fly cross country for 25-50 hours, learn stuff, and come back for IR".
Click to expand...

That's not terrible advice
 
ChrisK said:
I have had a little exposure to weather with my instructors and a little without them. I agree that I need more exposure. My instructor basically said "go fly cross country for 25-50 hours, learn stuff, and come back for IR".
Click to expand...



When flying VFR over a layer, just pay attention. If you notice the layer is getting thicker and might close up, do something about it. Pilots get stuck on top because they either quit paying attention, or they notice they are in trouble, start freaking out and don't take action in time. Turn back or if the bases are plenty high, go under and continue. Monitor the AWOS of airports along your route to help determine if the bases are going to be high enough for safe flying. (of course use the view out the window and your spidey senses too)

When you're on top of clouds you're generally up a few thousand feet. Don't fly on top of a low scattered/broken layer, unless it is the remnants of a morning stratus layer which is in the rapidly in the process of breaking up - lifting.
 
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ChrisK said:
Hey denny you may have heard of the town I went to high school in (Croswell, MI). Not many people I can say that to!
Click to expand...

Not denny, but I've landed there a bunch of times. (and taken off) :)
 
JoeSelch said:
Not denny, but I've landed there a bunch of times. (and taken off) :)
Click to expand...
From Arnold Field? As a geeky kid I would ride my bike up to that airport and hang out with Max and Rod. RARELY I would get Max to tell WW II stories. I was just glad he let me sit in the FBO. I was an odd kid..
 
75* water diving and I'm at the threshold of getting in a dry suit with 2 layers of thermals underneath, but I'm a WWW as they say, a warm water wuss... BTW, that is the surface temp, just inches down where your core and crotch are it can be over 10* colder. His route though doesn't particularly bother me.
 
Fwiw I have decided to drive. I'm not comfortable with the outlook this weekend. I will make it a day trip some nice Saturday.
 
Good for you. No one ever crashed the airplane they didn't fly. You'll do it another day, and probably enough times after that you'll want to drive because the flight got boring.
 
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