Plane skids off runway at MDW

[SkyHog]

Its on CNN, apparantly a Southwest 737 skidded off the end of the ruwnay in Snow at MDW.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Its on CNN, apparantly a Southwest 737 skidded off the end of the ruwnay in Snow at MDW.

CNN is now saying few injuries on board, plane crashed into car hurting dad
and his son.

Nose gear callapsed

 

[mikea]

SWA Jet Overshoots Runway at Midway

Wound up in Central Avenue at 55th street!

CHICAGO - A jetliner slid off a runway at Midway International Airport and onto a nearby street as it tried to land Thursday amid heavy snow and gusting wind, authorities said.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=local&id=3708676

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Re: SWA Jet Overshoots Runway at Midway

Wound up in Central Avenue at 55th street!

Not very good news OBTW: This was already brought up here, but didn't include a link. Thanks!

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4903

Jason

P.S. Great (well, not great that it happened, but well done job) explanation about how/why Meigs field was dug up in PilotCast 16. I was watching AOPA Expo videos and saw Phil Boyer talking about it and saw some startling photographs of the disturbing trenches

 

[mikea]

Re: SWA Jet Overshoots Runway at Midway

It's the first fatality in Southwest's history.

A six year old boy in one of the cars on the ground has died.

 

[Charinida]

WGN 9 News

Yeah, it was a messy day at ORD... AM was fine... after 2-3pm, is when the powder started to fall... Know some AM (9Dec) are already cxld...

We didn't start to cancel some flights until after 4PM ... I left work and heard about the WN accident later in the evening after getting home... Roads were a mess, and trains were slightly slow, but a hell of a lot faster than driving (yay, for not having a car - for once)

Gonna be interesting this weekend...

For those who have to be in the air, be safe! And keep warm, of course.

 

[Richard]

You're six years old, mom just picked you up from school, and your thoughts are turned to Christmas just a few weeks ahead. BLAM..........

I intially started to write about how many people are not sleeping well tonight: ATC for possibly reporting erroneous rwy conditions and issuing a landing clearance; mx for wondering if it was something they did; the pilots for wondering what they did wrong, all worried about their jobs.

But now this isn't about jobs anymore.

 

[SkyHog]

You're six years old, mom just picked you up from school, and your thoughts are turned to Christmas just a few weeks ahead. BLAM..........

I intially started to write about how many people are not sleeping well tonight: ATC for possibly reporting erroneous rwy conditions and issuing a landing clearance; mx for wondering if it was something they did; the pilots for wondering what they did wrong, all worried about their jobs.

But now this isn't about jobs anymore.

Man - this is heartbreaking to think of it that way. Ugh.

 

[Richard]

Man - this is heartbreaking to think of it that way. Ugh.

Yes, it is. Like I said, I was getting all wrapped up in getting mad at the media's early speculation, thoughts of how the investigation will play out, etc. Then I heard about the child...everything else went out the window.

 

[Anthony]

Re: SWA Jet Overshoots Runway at Midway

It's the first fatality in Southwest's history.

A six year old girl in one of the cars on the ground has died.

That really is sad. I heard it on the news this AM also. Damn.

 

[mikea]

From "CFI Joe:"

Southwest Airlines has confirmed that two vehicles were involved when the
737 veered off the runway 31C (6522 feet long). A six-year-old boy in one of
the vehicles has died as a result of injuries sustained in the accident.

Weather at the time of the crash (01:15 Z) was:

KMDW 090053Z 10011KT 1/2SM SN FZFG BKN004 OVC014 M03/M05 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP196 R31C/4500FT SNINCR 1/10 P0000 T10331050
KMDW 090153Z 23003KT 1/2SM SN FZFG VV002 M04/M05 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP191 R31C/4000V4500FT SNINCR 1/10 P0000 T10391050

 

[EHITCH]

Surfing through the TV coverage of the SWA accident on Thursday night, I heard several of the talking heads (ATPs) advise that the tires on the 737 have to be "spinning at a certain rate" (not a direct quote but that's the gist of it) in order to engage at least parts of the braking 'system'. This implied to me that if the runway was slick (and it was damn slippery driving home during that storm) the tires on the main gear couldn't 'get a grip' on the runway enough to help out with braking.
Can anyone explain, if I've understood this correctly, how the tire speed/rotation works to assist the flaps/slat/spoilers/reverse thrusters?
Thanks,
Elizabeth

PS -- today's Chicago Tribune online has a picture of the little boy who died. He and his family were on the way home from McDonalds, singing to the radio, when the father saw the plane come at them ..... hard to imagine ....

 

[Anthony]

PS -- today's Chicago Tribune online has a picture of the little boy who died. He and his family were on the way home from McDonalds, singing to the radio, when the father saw the plane come at them ..... hard to imagine ....

And before the body is even cold, the family has engaged an attorney to sue Southwest Airlines, Midway Airport, ATC, Boeing, etc.

 

[mikea]

And before the body is even cold, the family has engaged an attorney to sue Southwest Airlines, Midway Airport, ATC, Boeing, etc.

Relatives said the family had struggled financially in recent years. Leroy Woods, a truck driver, had been laid off from one job, but had cobbled together other work where he could, said Kathleen Skaggs, Joshua's great-aunt.

Leroy Woods sued Yellow Cab Co. in 1997 alleging he was injured when a taxi hit him in 1994 in Chicago. The case was settled in Woods' favor in 1999 for $27,500, according to a lawyer who represented the cab company.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ec10,1,2318745.story?page=2&coll=chi-news-hed

You know, in this case, it not like he's making up the loss. I would guess that lawyers call you or you call one you know right away. You might want to have help so you avoid saying things that could hurt your case.

We still get miffed when they have a mouthpiece at a press conference the next day.

I have reason to believe the powers that be put some pressure on to keep the airport humming. I'll bet that comes out and nobody will be paying attention.

- They hadn't moved the 737 as of this morning, but they were supposed to move it today. Both (major) roads are still closed with lots of cops and some emergency workers still there.

- If this had happened at Meigs, Daley would have the bulldozers right then.

- We can expect that the city will make the barriers at the ends of runways more massive.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Can anyone explain, if I've understood this correctly, how the tire speed/rotation works to assist the flaps/slat/spoilers/reverse thrusters?
Thanks,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, Wheel spinup has nothing to do with flaps and reverse thrust. The flaps are set before landing and the reverse thrust is a manual function. Slats and spoilers are the same thing. They have an automatic function that is based in par on the speed of the wheels. But in most cases, if the crew notices that the spoilers have not deployed they will do it manually. Also the planes have an auto brake system that works in part by sensing the speed of the wheels.

 

[Anthony]

You know, in this case, it not like he's making up the loss. I would guess that lawyers call you or you call one you know right away. You might want to have help so you avoid saying things that could hurt your case.

I'm not saying he's making up the loss. I object to the law suits even before they know the facts. It may be that there is no fault or negligence. Sh*t happens.

 

[mikea]

I'm not saying he's making up the loss. I object to the law suits even before they know the facts. It may be that there is no fault or negligence. Sh*t happens.

As the cops say, "That's why they call them 'accidents.'"

There are reports today that the pilots are saying they had some trouble engaging the thrust reversers. The lock-out locked out the captain for a few seconds until the FO got the reversers engaged.

On last night's Weekend NBC Nightly News the "In Depth" was the special report that there are longer runways at some other airports. And Midway's 31 doesn't the have 1000 foot buffer zone that is now required. And there is collapsible concrete that serves to slow down errant jets by slogging down the nose gear. "It is unclear if that would have had any effect on this accident."

Midway is on an exact square mile in the middle of a residential/industrial neighborhood. There was no 1000 feet for the taking, unless a 6000 foot runway became a 5000 foot runway.

When I drive by I'm amazed that Cicero on the east and Central on the west are barely a blast fence from the runway edge of 31. They just rerouted Cicero slightly more east to make room for the new terminal. There was room to the east. As you can see in the pictures there are bungalows across the street on the west. Duh Mare would only take the homes of people who don't vote for him, like those around O'Hare.

 

[Henning]

I'm not saying he's making up the loss. I object to the law suits even before they know the facts. It may be that there is no fault or negligence. Sh*t happens.

Fault or negligence is irrelevant, Aircarrier Ops, Explosives and Dangerous Animals carry with them Strict Liability. With Strict Liability, the rule is "Sh** happens, and you are responsible".

 

[EHITCH]

Elizabeth, Wheel spinup has nothing to do with flaps and reverse thrust. ...... Also the planes have an auto brake system that works in part by sensing the speed of the wheels.

Thanks Greg!

E

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Thanks Greg!

E

Da Nada

 

[Dave Siciliano]

You've probably read some of the updates. The Dallas Morning News reported the plane landed downwind (ground speed was nine miles per hour above airspeed at touchdown) and the crew couldn't get the thrust reversers to work without the help of the first officer. Took some bit of time to get them to work.

Controllers had discussed changing the runway and decided not to. Several pilots had requested a runway headed more into the wind. Evidently, this was the only runway adequately clear of snow at the time. Part of the consideration of controllers was changing the runway into one more into the wind would cause a large delay in traffic that was already backed up and would affect traffic into ORD.

Not a lot of room for anything to go wrong and something did from what I'm reading!!

As to the attorney, well, I don't like it either, but the family may not want to deal with all the publicity and inquiries by the press. I wouldn't. Don't know why they picked who they did, but I would be picking someone if it was my family in that car.

Best,

Dave

 

[mikea]

"Southwest Airlines' policy is not to use the autobrakes."

Why would they have that policy?
Don't they know it snows in Chicago?
SWA is negligent!

"The Captain is saying they used the autobrakes."

Why would he use autobrakes when it's against the airline's policy?
Has he been trained on their use?
SWA is negligent!

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-midway14.html

 

[Greg Bockelman]

"Southwest Airlines' policy is not to use the autobrakes."

Why would they have that policy?
Don't they know it snows in Chicago?
SWA is negligent!

"The Captain is saying they used the autobrakes."

Why would he use autobrakes when it's against the airline's policy?
Has he been trained on their use?
SWA is negligent!

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-midway14.html

Mike, are the comments in bold yours? Is the "SWA is negligent!" comment tounge in cheek? Let's not play the blame game until all the info is in.

There are so many inconsistencies in this story I hardly know where to begin.

National Transportation Safety Board investigators said they found the autobrake switch in the "maximum" position on the flight panel. The system is designed to activate when the landing gear hits the runway.

As flight crews began to realize the plane was not decelerating the way it should, they "took over the brakes and pressed them as hard as they could," according to the NTSB.

These two statements are contradictory. As soon as the pilot initiates manual braking, the autobrake system kicks off. If, in fact, the pilots pressed as hard as they could, the autobrake system would have been found in the reset position and no autobraking would have been used after that time. rovided, that is, the system was working properly. Based on this info, I can conclude the autobrake system malfunctioned.

BTW, just what is SWA's policy on Autobrakes? I don't know. And the "experts" did not explain the full policy. Were they told to never use the autobrakes, or just not to use them in high temperatures? I don't know. It would explain this statement:

That allowed planes to stay in the air as long as possible -- with 10-minute turnaround times -- avoiding the "brake cooling period" required when brakes are used at speeds higher than 80 knots, Yetman said

Stay in the air longer? Where did that come from? It is a braking issue, not an airborne issue. But brake cooling is not much of an issue unless it is pretty warm outside. SWA flys places where it becomes an issue, but Midway in the winter is not one of them.

"Safety does not come into question.

Huh?!? That is a bold statement to make.

This is another statement that strikes me wierd.

A plane landing in a snowstorm with seven inches on the ground."

The implication is that there were 7 inches of snow on the runway. That is the total amount of snowfall up to that point. It is absurd beyond limits to think they had not run a snowplow down the runway once during the snowstorm. Much more than 4 inches is cause for us at UAL to suspend operations to a particular runway.

Pilot training is a non starter with me. The system is dirt simple and there are no immediate action items associated with it in the case of a failure. If the autobrakes aren't working, you jump on the manual brakes and that is it.

Another non starter is the use of Heads Up display. That is a system to be used in low ceiling and vis situations, IE CAT ll and lll. SWA uses this system in lieu of Autoland. Since Midway has no CAT ll and lll approaches, this is a non issue.

I have no faith in the media, any media, getting the story right. Every time they report on something I have a little knowlege of, they get it wrong. This is pretty much the same thing.

 

[mikea]

Mike, are the comments in bold yours? Is the "SWA is negligent!" comment tounge in cheek? Let's not play the blame game until all the info is in.

Not me. It's what the press and the lawyer and the "experts" have been saying.

See the series in the Tribune Free registration required.:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0512100135dec10,1,1925528.story?coll=chi-news-hed
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0512100137dec10,1,2711962.story?coll=chi-news-hed
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0512110438dec11,1,5398944.story?coll=chi-news-hed
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0512150275dec15,1,7889319.story?coll=chi-news-hed
and more.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Not me. It's what the press and the lawyer and the "experts" have been saying.

The US of A needs to start an export program. Export at least 2 lawyers to every country. That way we get rid of a bunch of them and in the process spread the misery to the rest of the world.

 

[Greebo]

News report this morning says the black boxes indicate that the landing was about 1/3 of the way down the runway, the thrust reversers did not deploy on the first attempt (dunno if there was a 2nd) and that while under normal conditions, the runway would have been plenty long, under these conditions with both pilot and co standing (direct quote) on the brakes, there just wasnt enough runway.

This was a downwind landing, right? Didn't I see somewhere that discussions about changing runways had occurred but they were still landing with the wind?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

News report this morning says the black boxes indicate that the landing was about 1/3 of the way down the runway,

I wonder where they measured from. The runway surface is 6,500 feet long but it has a 700 foot displaced threshold. Measuring from the end of the runway surface would have put the airplane 1,300 feet beyond the threshold. Well within the normal touchdown zone.

the thrust reversers did not deploy on the first attempt (dunno if there was a 2nd)

Wonder why. And yes, there was a second attempt according to the accident report.

and that while under normal conditions, the runway would have been plenty long, under these conditions with both pilot and co standing (direct quote) on the brakes, there just wasnt enough runway

.

Well, no kidding. I wonder what those conditions were. And I wonder what was landing prior to the accident. I mean, it 737s were landing prior, why was it that this one could not stop?

This was a downwind landing, right?

Yes

Didn't I see somewhere that discussions about changing runways had occurred but they were still landing with the wind?

Yes. Trouble with changing runways at Midway is that it impacts O'Hare. Not that that is an over riding factor, just that it takes co-ordination to do. You can't just say "Let's change runways" and then immediately do it. It has to be coordinated with O'Hare. One other factor is that using any other runway at the time and the weather would be such that the approach minimums would not be met. Once again, it should not be an overriding factor, but it IS a factor.

 

[mikea]

News report this morning says the black boxes indicate that the landing was about 1/3 of the way down the runway, the thrust reversers did not deploy on the first attempt (dunno if there was a 2nd) and that while under normal conditions, the runway would have been plenty long, under these conditions with both pilot and co standing (direct quote) on the brakes, there just wasnt enough runway.

This was a downwind landing, right? Didn't I see somewhere that discussions about changing runways had occurred but they were still landing with the wind?

Amazingly, the NTSB isn't sure what the wind was at the time. It looks like it was 8 to 10 knot tailwind.

Changing runways would mean losing an approach to O'Hare so it's not done lightly.

The elephant in the tent is how certain entities might fudge things a bit to keep the flow going,...and I don't mean only the airlines.

Also consider that the same lawyers and experts who are sure this landing was a mistake would the loudest ones in line at the gate screaming how important they are when the airline says the flight is delayed or cancelled.

 

[Greebo]

Also consider that the same lawyers and experts who are sure this landing was a mistake would the loudest ones in line at the gate screaming how important they are when the airline says the flight is delayed or cancelled.

So true!

I'm not trying to Monday Morning Quarterback or assign blame. I'm simply trying to get the mental picture in my head. There are so MANY decision factors that come into play here that we'll never see a real assignment of blame, or we'll see the copout of "pilot error in deciding to land in adverse conditions with the wind enhanced by the mechanical failure of the thrust reversers to deploy" bs.