Dean
Pattern Altitude
Just heard on the local news of a small plane crashed into the Hudson River. Said it was a student pilot and CFI. Anyone know any more than this?
RotaryWingBob said:Members of the Kenmarson club are free to draw any conclusions they wish about wanting to fly a/c maintained by the club...
You got that right, Anthony.Anthony said:HA! Another reason to own your plane and have it maintained by someone you trust.
RotaryWingBob said:The PA28-161 is owned by:
big snip!
and is leased back to the Kenmarson Aero Club. I flew it a bunch of times while working on my PP-ASEL.
..
Gary said:That story is downright scary!
Yes it is, Gary.Gary said:Bob:
That story is downright scary!
Gary
That's true as far as it goes, Mark.MSmith said:In all fairness to the club (trying to be objective here) - the management changed last year, after Bob's purchase.
RotaryWingBob said:You got that right, Anthony.
The same club used to have a Mooney. A friend was flying it eastbound over center city Philly when the engine crapped out due to a failed fuel spider. Never mind that the engine had been overhauled 100 hours prior. He figures he made KPHL by a 1/4 mile to spare.
I did my complex there as well. One day I flew an Arrow which had just had the gear worked on. The gear wouldn't retract after takeoff...
The guy who used to own the club had his IA yanked by the FAA after the club screwed up the gear of a twin Commanche owned by someone I know, resulting in a gear-up landing. He had signed off on an annual where the A&P failed to make a required tension test.
Now I'm sure there are FBOs who do a good job. This outfit ain't one of them...
As you said, a good reason to buy.
RotaryWingBob said:Yes it is, Gary.
Here are the actual log book entries... the first is from the annual performed in August, the second and third from the following February when the pre-buy annual was done. It makes interesting reading
RotaryWingBob said:That's true as far as it goes, Mark.
There have actually been two changes of management since then. The first was when Frank H., Bob C., and Carl B. took the club over from Marshke (sp?). They got off to a good start with Bob getting planes airworthy fairly quickly and Carl starting to clean up the flight instruction side of the house. Both Carl and Bob are friends of mine (which makes it had for me to be objective, as well) and they thought they were making real progress.
Then, for reasons which nobody seems to fathom, Frank seems to have shot himself in the foot by somehow managing to oust both Carl and Bob.
You're in a better position than I to know whether things regressed after that. One piece of data -- one of those signatures in my log book stating that my a/c was airworthy is by an A&P who, the last I heard, is working at Kenmarson again...
Michael said:Jato, you seem a little defensive in your post. Signed up just to make it. Sorry, I gotta go with Bob on this one. Why would Bob care to fabricate something here. He is a respected member of this community. Bob has 688 contributions to this forum. I welcome you to POA, however would advise against attacking members credibillity untill you have at least the same number of posts of the member you are going to attack
JATO said:Bob, at least you admit you have an axe to grind with Kenmarson Air Club. My first question is why did you get your ppl their? Probably the same reason alot of people did - it is the most affordable flying within 100 miles of Philadelphia. The instruction rates are the cheapest anywhere...primary instruction is $25/hr, right Bob. And they are good quality instructors.
Second Bob, you failed to mention that the Mooney pilot was your friend Carl Bubnoski, who also has an ax to grind with KAC. Nor did you mention that the engine overhaul was done by another facility as there was a gear up landing a few months prior. At that time (and I spoke with Carl personally) in noway did Carl blame KAC maintenance on the problem he had.
Third, you are totally incorrect and misleading regarding management of the KAC. I was and still am friends with Ken Marske (no spelling error) as well as Frank, the current owner. In addition, I am still friendly with Bob Cameron and Carl who you mention. The fact is that the club was sold to Frank H. Bob Cameron was his mechanic with a "work toward a partnership" deal (of some sort-that was their business not ours). For whatever reason (and that is between Frank and Bob) that arrangement didn't work out, Bob was asked to leave and he started his own club. Carl ASKED (was not offered) that the then chief pilot be removed and he become chief pilot. Since Ben didn't really want to be chief pilot he told Frank that he was ok with that. Later when Frank found out (remember he's a new owner and learning as he goes at this point) that he didn't need a chief pilot he decided to eliminate the position. Carl stayed for awhile but then decided to join Bob at his new club. At no point in time was he an owner nor manager of the club. He was chief pilot only. I don't know what you mean by cleaning up the flight instruction side as Carl was not the best chief pilot that the club has had. In fact I wouldn't rank him any higher than 5th out of the 6 that the club has had since I've been a member. I'm not saying he was bad, just saying there was nothing special about what he accomplished. Incedently, I would tell Carl that personally if he asked me. Bob did a good job with maintenance but he's not without his faults too. AS for Steve, the mechanic you refer to as being back at KAC now. That is an accurate statement. One of the problems KAC experiences in maintaining club aircraft is that there is a good amount of outside work being done because of owners who are happy with Steve's work. If he was so bad I doubt these owners would bring their airplanes to KAC for maintenance. This outside work does slow down the scheduled maintenance on club aircraft. But to reitterate and set the record straight: Original owner and mangement was Ken Marske and he sold to Frank. One change only.
Fourth, I'll admit that things are different without Ken there but Frank is doing an adequate job of keeping KAC together. If he weren't more members would defect to Bob's club. There will be disgruntled members in any organization and so far very few have left to join the other club. That includes aircraft owners too. None have left. I think Bob has two planes, one belonging to his friend even, while KAC currently has 15 including warriors, archers, 152's and 172's, 2 diamonds (a c1 and a 40), and a twin. Yes, this is alot less than the close to 50 KAC had at one time but since 9/11 and the tough economic times the numbers had to be scaled back. It is still 750% more than what Bob has. So if things were as bleak as the picture you paint my question would be why does KAC have more members, instructors, and variety and number of airplanes to rent?
As to your complex training and the gear not retracting, can you be more specific. I know it's happened a couple of times but this is not always related to poor maintenance. Things do go wrong with mechanical parts. And it happens at FBO's all over the country. What Twin Commanche gear up landing are you referring to? Because if it's the one I know of that MY FRIEND was instructing in, that was NOT a maintenance problem. So be a little careful with what you imply.
To those reading: Please take what Bob says with a grain of salt. He has an ax to grind with KAC but probably more so with Ken Marske the former owner. I'm not saying he doesn't have valid points or the logbook to back up his statements. But he does make several innuendos that simply are not true.
JMH said:In 1999 I went to Kenmarsen to see about getting my private liscence, I was told by the instructor there that the FAA requires a minimum of one hour per week of training. My income at that time would not allow me to commit to this, so the instructor pretty much showed me the door, he would not even entertain the idea of an intro flight.
I left VAY and went to another nearby airport and questioned them about this reqirement. They explained that it is definitely a good idea to train at least weekly, but is not an FAA requirement. They also assisted me in getting a student loan to get my liscence. Since then I know of three engine failures in Kenmarsen's planes, one resulting in two fatalities.
Yes I'm bitter about the way I was treated by that CFI, who didn't want to deal with me since I didn't have a wheelbarrow full of money, but I definitely benifitted from his ignorance. I now have my liscence, my income has risen substantially, I can afford to fly as often as I like, but would not rent off of Kenmarsen if thier rates were fifty cents an hour wet! Ther are too many other places to rent in this area, that have much better track records.
Unless they recover the aircraft, which I guess they won't, we'll never know what happened.MSmith said:The NTSB has issued their Preliminary Report.