Dean
Pattern Altitude
Just heard on the local news of a small plane crashed into the Hudson River. Said it was a student pilot and CFI. Anyone know any more than this?
Plane into the Hudson River
- Thread starter Dean
- Start date
MSmith
Line Up and Wait
This aircraft was from my club. The tail number is 2759M - a Piper Warrior II. I most recently flew it last July.
Both pilots are in the hospital with hypothermia. Trenton Times Story
The interesting thing is that my instructor specifically told me NOT to book that plane recently. I don't know why, and even if I did I wouldn't speculate here.
Both pilots are in the hospital with hypothermia. Trenton Times Story
The interesting thing is that my instructor specifically told me NOT to book that plane recently. I don't know why, and even if I did I wouldn't speculate here.
The PA28-161 is owned by:
Registration Type: Corporation
Owner: Trinity Aviation Inc
Address: 33 Mystic Way
Burlngtn Twp, NJ 08016-4253
United States
and is leased back to the Kenmarson Aero Club. I flew it a bunch of times while working on my PP-ASEL.
I bought my own plane after my checkride after I rejected 3 Club a/c in the same day during preflight (I decided NOT to fly that day).
My Archer had been maintained by that club as well. I did an annual for a pre-buy inspection, which turned up something like 30 discrepencies, some of which were major like unauthorized parts, misindexed prop (which would have made it impossible to check the timing -- something that an annual is supposed to include), misrigged stabilator trim (which someday would have either sawed through something or broken the cable), sheared alternator bolts, exhaust system leak, bare wires on wing tip nav lights, missing wing rib, etc, etc.
Since there had been an annual performed by the club a few months before with a log book entry showing NO work performed besides the inspection (as did the annual before) tells me that the IA who signed off on the prior annuals never even looked at the airplane.
(The prior owner corrected the airworthiness problems per our agreement, and I think he was genuinly shocked about what the inspection had surfaced).
Members of the Kenmarson club are free to draw any conclusions they wish about wanting to fly a/c maintained by the club...
Registration Type: Corporation
Owner: Trinity Aviation Inc
Address: 33 Mystic Way
Burlngtn Twp, NJ 08016-4253
United States
and is leased back to the Kenmarson Aero Club. I flew it a bunch of times while working on my PP-ASEL.
I bought my own plane after my checkride after I rejected 3 Club a/c in the same day during preflight (I decided NOT to fly that day).
My Archer had been maintained by that club as well. I did an annual for a pre-buy inspection, which turned up something like 30 discrepencies, some of which were major like unauthorized parts, misindexed prop (which would have made it impossible to check the timing -- something that an annual is supposed to include), misrigged stabilator trim (which someday would have either sawed through something or broken the cable), sheared alternator bolts, exhaust system leak, bare wires on wing tip nav lights, missing wing rib, etc, etc.
Since there had been an annual performed by the club a few months before with a log book entry showing NO work performed besides the inspection (as did the annual before) tells me that the IA who signed off on the prior annuals never even looked at the airplane.
(The prior owner corrected the airworthiness problems per our agreement, and I think he was genuinly shocked about what the inspection had surfaced).
Members of the Kenmarson club are free to draw any conclusions they wish about wanting to fly a/c maintained by the club...
You got that right, Anthony.Anthony said:
The same club used to have a Mooney. A friend was flying it eastbound over center city Philly when the engine crapped out due to a failed fuel spider. Never mind that the engine had been overhauled 100 hours prior. He figures he made KPHL by a 1/4 mile to spare.
I did my complex there as well. One day I flew an Arrow which had just had the gear worked on. The gear wouldn't retract after takeoff...
The guy who used to own the club had his IA yanked by the FAA after the club screwed up the gear of a twin Commanche owned by someone I know, resulting in a gear-up landing. He had signed off on an annual where the A&P failed to make a required tension test.
Now I'm sure there are FBOs who do a good job. This outfit ain't one of them...
As you said, a good reason to buy.
Gary
En-Route
RotaryWingBob said:
Bob:
That story is downright scary!
Gary
Yes it is, Gary.Gary said:
Here are the actual log book entries... the first is from the annual performed in August, the second and third from the following February when the pre-buy annual was done. It makes interesting reading
Attachments
MSmith
Line Up and Wait
In all fairness to the club (trying to be objective here) - the management changed last year, after Bob's purchase.
That's true as far as it goes, Mark.MSmith said:
There have actually been two changes of management since then. The first was when Frank H., Bob C., and Carl B. took the club over from Marshke (sp?). They got off to a good start with Bob getting planes airworthy fairly quickly and Carl starting to clean up the flight instruction side of the house. Both Carl and Bob are friends of mine (which makes it had for me to be objective, as well) and they thought they were making real progress.
Then, for reasons which nobody seems to fathom, Frank seems to have shot himself in the foot by somehow managing to oust both Carl and Bob.
You're in a better position than I to know whether things regressed after that. One piece of data -- one of those signatures in my log book stating that my a/c was airworthy is by an A&P who, the last I heard, is working at Kenmarson again...
Dave Krall CFII
Final Approach
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Display name:
Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
RotaryWingBob said:
All these aircraft are owned by someone, making the safer conclusion one of choosing the right mechanics and looking over the shoulders of ones aircraft mechanics in a variety of ways.
Skip Miller
Final Approach
A generally favorable article (considering the circumstances) in this morning's NY Times. -Skip
= = = = = = = =
If You Have to Ditch in Hudson, This Is How to Do It
By BARBARA WHITAKER
Published: January 4, 2006
It had been a routine flight from a South Jersey airport, passing the Narrows, running up the Hudson River and flying over the George Washington Bridge, when the familiar hum of the engine was interrupted.
John Eberle yesterday recounted his plane's engine failure on Monday. He and another pilot, Mark Sorey, were rescued from the Hudson.
Helicopters from the Police Department and the Coast Guard helped in the rescue of two men in the Hudson River near Yonkers.
"The propeller sputtered, undulated and sputtered again," said John Eberle, an instructor who was aboard the single-engine plane with another pilot, Mark Sorey, on Monday. The engine then stopped altogether, leaving the two men, who had flown together only twice, to decide in an instant whether to make a run at land or put down in the Hudson. They opted for the river to avoid people and buildings.
"As pilots you train for these events routinely," Mr. Eberle said yesterday as he prepared to leave Jacobi Medical Center in the Bronx, where he and Mr. Sorey were taken after being plucked from the water by New York City police and Coast Guard helicopter rescue units. "When it does happen, you don't know how you'll react. Mark and I did well."
Perhaps the best evidence of how well they did was Mr. Eberle's appearance yesterday. Not a bruise. Not a scrape. Although he was pushed into the lobby in a wheelchair, he quickly stood, looking fit in a blue and white striped shirt, gray trousers and black penny loafers. Mr. Sorey, 44, of Burlington, N.J., was reportedly in good condition, although he was held another day for tests.
The National Transportation Safety Board continued its investigation into the crash yesterday. Attempts yesterday to locate the plane, which may have been carried away by the current, were called off because of the rough weather.
Mr. Eberle, 42, of Marlton, N.J., credited training, teamwork, following the rules and the quick response of rescuers with saving the two men's lives after their Piper Warrior plunged into the frigid waters of the Hudson just off the banks of the Yonkers pier.
"We were playing for keeps," he said. The men had known each other only since Saturday. Mr. Sorey, who has about 150 hours' flight time compared with Mr. Eberle's 700 hours, had contacted Mr. Eberle because he needed to update his pilot's certificate and to familiarize himself with the Hudson before taking the winner of a church raffle on a sightseeing trip up the river. They then planned to fly over to Lincoln Park Airport in New Jersey so Mr. Sorey could practice "touch and go" landings there.
Mr. Eberle said that at no time did the two men panic. Instead, they relied on everything they had learned about dealing with an emergency, radioing for help, trying alternatives to restart the engine and switching fuel tanks in a vain attempt to stay aloft.
With the engine out, Mr. Eberle, who had been working the radio, told Mr. Sorey he was taking over the controls. He slowed the plane and raised its nose to ease its entry into the water.
At the same time, Mr. Sorey continued to radio for help. Once the plane was in the water, the two climbed from the only door onto a wing. Then Mr. Sorey jumped to the other wing to balance the craft, and called 911 on his cellphone.
As the plane sank, the men scrambled up the tail to stay dry as long as possible.
"That didn't help too much," Mr. Eberle said. "It was under water."
A Delta pilot in the air who had heard one of the Maydays alerted authorities on the ground. The first helicopters missed the two men bobbing in the water. Mr. Eberle said that Mr. Sorey planned to start swimming to a nearby barge, but that he himself could not because he is not a strong swimmer.
The men are estimated to have been in the water, its temperature around 40 degrees, for 15 to 30 minutes before helicopters lifted them up in baskets. Mr. Eberle described the cold as numbing and said it was difficult to raise his arms to signal rescuers.
Still, he said, he thought everything would be all right if he could just maintain consciousness.
"I think it's a miracle that they kept their wits about them," said Dr. Sheldon Teperman, assistant director of trauma surgery at Jacobi. "I'd probably be calling for my mommy."
"She didn't answer," Mr. Eberle said.
= = = = = = = =
If You Have to Ditch in Hudson, This Is How to Do It
By BARBARA WHITAKER
Published: January 4, 2006
It had been a routine flight from a South Jersey airport, passing the Narrows, running up the Hudson River and flying over the George Washington Bridge, when the familiar hum of the engine was interrupted.
John Eberle yesterday recounted his plane's engine failure on Monday. He and another pilot, Mark Sorey, were rescued from the Hudson.
Helicopters from the Police Department and the Coast Guard helped in the rescue of two men in the Hudson River near Yonkers.
"The propeller sputtered, undulated and sputtered again," said John Eberle, an instructor who was aboard the single-engine plane with another pilot, Mark Sorey, on Monday. The engine then stopped altogether, leaving the two men, who had flown together only twice, to decide in an instant whether to make a run at land or put down in the Hudson. They opted for the river to avoid people and buildings.
"As pilots you train for these events routinely," Mr. Eberle said yesterday as he prepared to leave Jacobi Medical Center in the Bronx, where he and Mr. Sorey were taken after being plucked from the water by New York City police and Coast Guard helicopter rescue units. "When it does happen, you don't know how you'll react. Mark and I did well."
Perhaps the best evidence of how well they did was Mr. Eberle's appearance yesterday. Not a bruise. Not a scrape. Although he was pushed into the lobby in a wheelchair, he quickly stood, looking fit in a blue and white striped shirt, gray trousers and black penny loafers. Mr. Sorey, 44, of Burlington, N.J., was reportedly in good condition, although he was held another day for tests.
The National Transportation Safety Board continued its investigation into the crash yesterday. Attempts yesterday to locate the plane, which may have been carried away by the current, were called off because of the rough weather.
Mr. Eberle, 42, of Marlton, N.J., credited training, teamwork, following the rules and the quick response of rescuers with saving the two men's lives after their Piper Warrior plunged into the frigid waters of the Hudson just off the banks of the Yonkers pier.
"We were playing for keeps," he said. The men had known each other only since Saturday. Mr. Sorey, who has about 150 hours' flight time compared with Mr. Eberle's 700 hours, had contacted Mr. Eberle because he needed to update his pilot's certificate and to familiarize himself with the Hudson before taking the winner of a church raffle on a sightseeing trip up the river. They then planned to fly over to Lincoln Park Airport in New Jersey so Mr. Sorey could practice "touch and go" landings there.
Mr. Eberle said that at no time did the two men panic. Instead, they relied on everything they had learned about dealing with an emergency, radioing for help, trying alternatives to restart the engine and switching fuel tanks in a vain attempt to stay aloft.
With the engine out, Mr. Eberle, who had been working the radio, told Mr. Sorey he was taking over the controls. He slowed the plane and raised its nose to ease its entry into the water.
At the same time, Mr. Sorey continued to radio for help. Once the plane was in the water, the two climbed from the only door onto a wing. Then Mr. Sorey jumped to the other wing to balance the craft, and called 911 on his cellphone.
As the plane sank, the men scrambled up the tail to stay dry as long as possible.
"That didn't help too much," Mr. Eberle said. "It was under water."
A Delta pilot in the air who had heard one of the Maydays alerted authorities on the ground. The first helicopters missed the two men bobbing in the water. Mr. Eberle said that Mr. Sorey planned to start swimming to a nearby barge, but that he himself could not because he is not a strong swimmer.
The men are estimated to have been in the water, its temperature around 40 degrees, for 15 to 30 minutes before helicopters lifted them up in baskets. Mr. Eberle described the cold as numbing and said it was difficult to raise his arms to signal rescuers.
Still, he said, he thought everything would be all right if he could just maintain consciousness.
"I think it's a miracle that they kept their wits about them," said Dr. Sheldon Teperman, assistant director of trauma surgery at Jacobi. "I'd probably be calling for my mommy."
"She didn't answer," Mr. Eberle said.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
RotaryWingBob said:Yes it is, Gary.
Here are the actual log book entries... the first is from the annual performed in August, the second and third from the following February when the pre-buy annual was done. It makes interesting reading
I sure like the typed and pasted in format better. Line 35 says that "an operational check was performed; leaks and defects noted". I presume he intended to write "NO leaks or defects noted"!
Kind of a critical modifier!!Your new mechanic seems to have a good eye for detail... I like that.
J
JATO
Guest
RotaryWingBob said:
Bob, at least you admit you have an axe to grind with Kenmarson Air Club. My first question is why did you get your ppl their? Probably the same reason alot of people did - it is the most affordable flying within 100 miles of Philadelphia. The instruction rates are the cheapest anywhere...primary instruction is $25/hr, right Bob. And they are good quality instructors.
Second Bob, you failed to mention that the Mooney pilot was your friend Carl Bubnoski, who also has an ax to grind with KAC. Nor did you mention that the engine overhaul was done by another facility as there was a gear up landing a few months prior. At that time (and I spoke with Carl personally) in noway did Carl blame KAC maintenance on the problem he had.
Third, you are totally incorrect and misleading regarding management of the KAC. I was and still am friends with Ken Marske (no spelling error) as well as Frank, the current owner. In addition, I am still friendly with Bob Cameron and Carl who you mention. The fact is that the club was sold to Frank H. Bob Cameron was his mechanic with a "work toward a partnership" deal (of some sort-that was their business not ours). For whatever reason (and that is between Frank and Bob) that arrangement didn't work out, Bob was asked to leave and he started his own club. Carl ASKED (was not offered) that the then chief pilot be removed and he become chief pilot. Since Ben didn't really want to be chief pilot he told Frank that he was ok with that. Later when Frank found out (remember he's a new owner and learning as he goes at this point) that he didn't need a chief pilot he decided to eliminate the position. Carl stayed for awhile but then decided to join Bob at his new club. At no point in time was he an owner nor manager of the club. He was chief pilot only. I don't know what you mean by cleaning up the flight instruction side as Carl was not the best chief pilot that the club has had. In fact I wouldn't rank him any higher than 5th out of the 6 that the club has had since I've been a member. I'm not saying he was bad, just saying there was nothing special about what he accomplished. Incedently, I would tell Carl that personally if he asked me. Bob did a good job with maintenance but he's not without his faults too. AS for Steve, the mechanic you refer to as being back at KAC now. That is an accurate statement. One of the problems KAC experiences in maintaining club aircraft is that there is a good amount of outside work being done because of owners who are happy with Steve's work. If he was so bad I doubt these owners would bring their airplanes to KAC for maintenance. This outside work does slow down the scheduled maintenance on club aircraft. But to reitterate and set the record straight: Original owner and mangement was Ken Marske and he sold to Frank. One change only.
Fourth, I'll admit that things are different without Ken there but Frank is doing an adequate job of keeping KAC together. If he weren't more members would defect to Bob's club. There will be disgruntled members in any organization and so far very few have left to join the other club. That includes aircraft owners too. None have left. I think Bob has two planes, one belonging to his friend even, while KAC currently has 15 including warriors, archers, 152's and 172's, 2 diamonds (a c1 and a 40), and a twin. Yes, this is alot less than the close to 50 KAC had at one time but since 9/11 and the tough economic times the numbers had to be scaled back. It is still 750% more than what Bob has. So if things were as bleak as the picture you paint my question would be why does KAC have more members, instructors, and variety and number of airplanes to rent?
As to your complex training and the gear not retracting, can you be more specific. I know it's happened a couple of times but this is not always related to poor maintenance. Things do go wrong with mechanical parts. And it happens at FBO's all over the country. What Twin Commanche gear up landing are you referring to? Because if it's the one I know of that MY FRIEND was instructing in, that was NOT a maintenance problem. So be a little careful with what you imply.
To those reading: Please take what Bob says with a grain of salt. He has an ax to grind with KAC but probably more so with Ken Marske the former owner. I'm not saying he doesn't have valid points or the logbook to back up his statements. But he does make several innuendos that simply are not true.
My, my, my, Mr. Anonymous JATO. Touched a nerve, did we?
Michael
Pattern Altitude
Jato, you seem a little defensive in your post. Signed up just to make it. Sorry, I gotta go with Bob on this one. Why would Bob care to fabricate something here. He is a respected member of this community. Bob has 688 contributions to this forum. I welcome you to POA, however would advise against attacking members credibillity untill you have at least the same number of posts as the member you are going to attack
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J
JATO
Guest
Michael said:Jato, you seem a little defensive in your post. Signed up just to make it. Sorry, I gotta go with Bob on this one. Why would Bob care to fabricate something here. He is a respected member of this community. Bob has 688 contributions to this forum. I welcome you to POA, however would advise against attacking members credibillity untill you have at least the same number of posts of the member you are going to attack
My intention was not to attack anyone's credibility. Just to point out some inaccuracies in his facts. As I stated I too am friends with the individuals he mentions but wouldn't change the facts to aggrandize my points.
I know he has the logbooks to back up his claims. And yes, the planes were not always the best maintained. But there were few incidents or accidents when compared to the number of hours club aircraft were flown. And let's not forget that Bob C, who the poster says was handling the maintenance for new owner Frank was also Ken's head mechanic for several years and left only because another FBO offered him alot more money. So wouldn't some of those maintenance issues be attributed to him? Hey, I have friends, club members that wouldn't buy a plane from Ken before an independant pre-buy. Personally, I wouldn't buy a plane from anyone before a pre-buy. And every, yes every FBO will substitute some parts that are not aviation parts. For example: a light bulb bought from Piper is $17.00 while the same bulb bought at auto parts distributor is under $3.00. Now I know the poster was referring to parts other than a light bulb but I was just trying to make a point.
Some individuals do not have a comfort level with renting. That is ok. Just don't trash the place that gave you the opportunity to get your ppl and other training at a very affordable price that's all.
I agree with him regarding most of his points. I just took exception to a few things that were inaccurate and wanted to set the record straight. The KAC, then and now, provides the cheapest per hour rental anywhere, and good quality instructors and far below market rates.
J
JMH
Guest
JATO said:
In 1999 I went to Kenmarsen to see about getting my private liscence, I was told by the instructor there that the FAA requires a minimum of one hour per week of training. My income at that time would not allow me to commit to this, so the instructor pretty much showed me the door, he would not even entertain the idea of an intro flight.
I left VAY and went to another nearby airport and questioned them about this reqirement. They explained that it is definitely a good idea to train at least weekly, but is not an FAA requirement. They also assisted me in getting a student loan to get my liscence. Since then I know of three engine failures in Kenmarsen's planes, one resulting in two fatalities.
Yes I'm bitter about the way I was treated by that CFI, who didn't want to deal with me since I didn't have a wheelbarrow full of money, but I definitely benifitted from his ignorance. I now have my liscence, my income has risen substantially, I can afford to fly as often as I like, but would not rent off of Kenmarsen if thier rates were fifty cents an hour wet! Ther are too many other places to rent in this area, that have much better track records.
J
JATO
Guest
JMH said:
John,
I was a member in 1999. I'm sorry you had a bad experience and received inaccurate information. I hope the cfi that gave you that info is no longer there as that is not the way things are done. There are a few instructors at KAC now who were there in 1999 but for the most part, like any flight school there has been alot of turnover. Do you know who you spoke with?
You state that you know of three engine failures, one of which resulted in two fatalities. John, that simply is not true. It is wrong for anyone to make blatant statements like that without substantiating them. I'm not a lawyer but what you say may even be libelous. If you can provide facts concerning your statements and they are accurate I will acknowledge them. I did with Bob above where his statements were accurate. Provide date, tail number, and ntsb report.
Yes, there have been engine failures. Any FBO I have ever rented an aircraft from has had an engine fail. In fact one of my instructors at KAC had told me he had 3 and at that time he had a little over 1000 hours. Two of the three had been at Emory-Riddle where he had been a student. Does this make Emory-Riddle a bad school? Of course not. These things can happen.
Prior to 9/11 every flight school and FBO was busy. And KAC was busier than any on the east coast. KAC aircraft flew over 10000 hours per year. Alot more than anywhere in Phila area. The number of incidents that happened per year, even pilot error ones, is relatively low when you consider the number of hours these planes flew.
John, I state again that you your statement that KAC has had an engine failure resulting in two fatalities is WRONG! Please substantiate or retract. Thank you.
MSmith
Line Up and Wait
The NTSB has issued their Preliminary Report.
Unless they recover the aircraft, which I guess they won't, we'll never know what happened.MSmith said:
I had 18 hours in 2759M including my second lesson when I started my PP-ASEL, all of them dual as it turns out...