Plane for this mission...

CJones

CJones

Final Approach
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
6,051
Location
Jawjuh
Display Name
uHaveNoIdea
Home Airfield
KCCO
Tell me the a/c that would meet this mission profile:
  • Cruise 165+ KTAS
  • 6 'real' seats (not 4 seats + small bench like 210)
  • Cabin room for 6 FAA average sized adults
  • Fuel capacity for 600nm trip non-stop with IFR reserves at 165+ KTAS
  • Weight capacity for 6 FAA average sized adults + 1.25 carry-on sized bag each
  • Reasonably insurable for PP-ASEL-IA with ~700 hrs (with possibility of acquiring AMEL if twin is needed to meet profile)
I honestly don't know what kind of plane would meet this requirement, so let's hear the suggestions.
 
PC12

Pilatus-PC12-In-Flight.jpg


pc-12_interior.jpg
 
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CJones said:
Tell me the a/c that would meet this mission profile:
  • Cruise 165+ KTAS
  • 6 'real' seats (not 4 seats + small bench like 210)
  • Cabin room for 6 FAA average sized adults
  • Fuel capacity for 600nm trip non-stop with IFR reserves at 165+ KTAS
  • Weight capacity for 6 FAA average sized adults + 1.25 carry-on sized bag each
  • Reasonably insurable for PP-ASEL-IA with ~700 hrs (with possibility of acquiring AMEL if twin is needed to meet profile)
I honestly don't know what kind of plane would meet this requirement, so let's hear the suggestions.
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Aztec is that with the power turned up, but they don't care, they'll run happy at 260hp for 4000 hrs if you run them 40 hrs a week, that's how derated the power output on that 540 really is from what is physically available; it's just going to use a butt load of fuel to do it. Really though, if you have the discipline to rub 180kts, a 404 Cessna is a hell of an aircraft. Pull those red handles all the way back gets you about 190kts before it's falling off so you pull the props back to get you down to 180. At those speeds your operating costs would be those of a 310R although cabin planes cost more to maintain, at least the 404 doesn't have a pressure vessel in it. 310R is another decent choice, it has the largest of the non cabin class planes with one notable exception, the T-Bone BE-50 Twin Bonanza, a bit of a mixed breed, some with airstair some without.
 
Navajo
414
Baron

Or go turbine

6 real passengers and bags for 600nm...
 
you guys just need to build another RV-10.
 
This sounds like large cabin class to me, (Cessna 400 series twin). Everything else is just to small, especially when you consider baggage. Good news is they're just about giving some of them away. How does $1000 an hour sound (ballpark)?

I would only consider it if most all my flying had 6 large adults. I looked at the Meridian/Mirage which is really a 4+ kids bird with an air stair. Insurance minimum $18k, flight safety mandatory, etc. Crazy expensive on a 200 hour per year basis.

I just don't like my friends that much, even though they toss me a $100 bill after a 7 hour RT flight "to pay for the gas"
 
Alexb2000 said:
The 58 cabin is the same as the A36. You might have the load, but would you really want 4 large adults in the back for 600NM playing footsy?
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Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't want to be a passenger regardless with a low time PP in the hero-chair of a Baron. I think the requirement was for 6 FAA standard adults. Baron would be minimalist. What price point are we talking about? There are a couple of gorgeous high cabin twin Beeches on barnstormers. North of 300K, though.
 
Sounds expensive. You're talking turbines or really big piston twins.
 
58 has nose baggage compartment. 36 does not.

Alexb2000 said:
The 58 cabin is the same as the A36. You might have the load, but would you really want 4 large adults in the back for 600NM playing footsy?
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Alexb2000 said:
This sounds like large cabin class to me, (Cessna 400 series twin). Everything else is just to small, especially when you consider baggage. Good news is they're just about giving some of them away. How does $1000 an hour sound (ballpark)?

I would only consider it if most all my flying had 6 large adults. I looked at the Meridian/Mirage which is really a 4+ kids bird with an air stair. Insurance minimum $18k, flight safety mandatory, etc. Crazy expensive on a 200 hour per year basis.

I just don't like my friends that much, even though they toss me a $100 bill after a 7 hour RT flight "to pay for the gas"
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421s Charter at less than $750, $550hr will cover an unpressurized 400 series and the 404 is the biggest and best of them.
 
The answer never changes, Doug. This question has been asked numerous times on this and other forums, and after the peanut gallery finally circle-jerks it to death the inevitable conclusion is that the plane necessary to do the job is out of reach for financial reasons, pilot capability reasons or both.

My Yukon XL is the perfect machine for the trip, assuming he is willing to sacrifice a little ground speed to obtain the reliability and dependability necessary to consistently make those trips.:wink2:

j1b3h0 said:
What machine would you suggest, Wayne?
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wabower said:
My Yukon XL is the perfect machine for the trip, assuming he is willing to sacrifice a little ground speed to obtain the reliability and dependability necessary to consistently make those trips.:wink2:
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+1 :yeahthat:

ROFL!
 
Henning said:
421s Charter at less than $750, $550hr will cover an unpressurized 400 series and the 404 is the biggest and best of them.
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Sounds too cheap to me. I figured fuel at $250 alone. If someone will charter it for $550 why not do that when you have 6 people and buy something else for when you don't?
 
Bear in mind that charter rates are one-way unless you're coming back no later than the next day or are willing to pay demurrage. IOW, double the quoted cost.

Sounds too cheap to me. I figured fuel at $250 alone. If someone will charter it for $550 why not do that when you have 6 people and buy something else for when you don't?[/QUOTE]
 
Alexb2000 said:
Sounds too cheap to me. I figured fuel at $250 alone. If someone will charter it for $550 why not do that when you have 6 people and buy something else for when you don't?
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You can't charter for $550, you charter for $725-$750 around here. You can operate an unpressurized one for that or less even if you are willing to slow down to 180. Speed increases at the square of $$$. Four miles a minute costs the square of three miles a minute. A 421 can go 180 on about 25gph IIRC when all leaned out. Slowing down saves a hell of a lot of money and as Wayne points out if you want to give up 3 miles a minute for one mile a minute and you can save a bunch more and just drive.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Just to keep the "circle jerk" going:

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...N-AIR-65/BEECHCRAFT-QUEEN-AIR-65/1241435.htm?
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That is the one to have right there if you want a Queen Air. You lean that out and pull it back for 180 and you have Transatlantic range direct Ganders to Reykjavik and can even make it west bound on more days than not. Full deice, long range, solid engines, comfy cabin that can take a lav. Lot of nice bells and whistles. Needs a window stripe though.
 
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Skylane81E said:
That would do it with 879lbs left over for bags...

If you are ok with about a dollar a mile for fuel
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I figured about a 5-6 GPH penalty from any another light twin, which seemed pretty reasonable for the size and load capacity increase. Not to mention 800HP when you need it.

Now we just have to get those freeloading SOB's in the back to kick in for fuel.
 
Skylane81E said:
That would do it with 879lbs left over for bags...

If you are ok with about a dollar a mile for fuel
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Should be bit less that. I used to ferry the Brave on 14gph and 120 kts. You can turn up another 20gph and not not gain 15 kts, but the difference over a 250hp Pawnee getting a load into the air on hot day in the high plains is amazing. Queen Air ought to manage 180 on twice that run LOP, 28*$5.50 is $154 an hour call it $.85 or about 6.5mpg which is about what you get with a motor home.
 
CJones said:
Tell me the a/c that would meet this mission profile:
  • Cruise 165+ KTAS
  • 6 'real' seats (not 4 seats + small bench like 210)
  • Cabin room for 6 FAA average sized adults
  • Fuel capacity for 600nm trip non-stop with IFR reserves at 165+ KTAS
  • Weight capacity for 6 FAA average sized adults + 1.25 carry-on sized bag each
  • Reasonably insurable for PP-ASEL-IA with ~700 hrs (with possibility of acquiring AMEL if twin is needed to meet profile)
I honestly don't know what kind of plane would meet this requirement, so let's hear the suggestions.
Click to expand...
I agree with Henning -- PA23-250 Aztec, probably an older C/D model, as their empty weights were lower, and 2000 lb useful loads were common. Only difficulty might be running out of baggage volume with 8 bags unless the extra 0.25 bags are briefcases kept in laps. Only problem will be insurance for a newly-rated ME pilot, especially if s/he has no prior retractable time, but there isn't a piston-powered single which will haul that load short of something looney like an Antonov An-2, which ain't that fast and has a lot of other issues. Of course, if your budget can handle it, there are a few turbine singles like the TBM's and PC-12, but that's a 7-digit investment.
 
Alexb2000 said:
The 58 cabin is the same as the A36. You might have the load, but would you really want 4 large adults in the back for 600NM playing footsy?
Click to expand...
Cabin volume isn't the issue -- payload is. Check some actual BE58 useful loads and then figure the fuel.
 
Cabin room for 6 adults as defined by whom? The passengers who think commuter turbo-props are puddle jumpers or the newb pilot who assumes everybody wants to ride without moving, peeing or air conditioning for 3-4 hours? Ted's dogs didn't complain because they could stand up, stretch and move around, and weren't all that distressed to pee in the cage if need be. Many passengers are less flexible about that stuff. One of them lives here.

Ron Levy said:
I agree with Henning -- PA23-250 Aztec, probably an older C/D model, as their empty weights were lower, and 2000 lb useful loads were common. Only difficulty might be running out of baggage volume with 8 bags unless the extra 0.25 bags are briefcases kept in laps. Only problem will be insurance for a newly-rated ME pilot, especially if s/he has no prior retractable time, but there isn't a piston-powered single which will haul that load short of something looney like an Antonov An-2, which ain't that fast and has a lot of other issues. Of course, if your budget can handle it, there are a few turbine singles like the TBM's and PC-12, but that's a 7-digit investment.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
Cabin volume isn't the issue -- payload is. Check some actual BE58 useful loads and then figure the fuel.
Click to expand...

You're right it's very tight. You would have to have a lightweight early one with ~1800 useful and then it's still right on the edge if anyone brings much more than a toothbrush. Regardless not a good answer for 6 adults in any way shape or form.
 
Okay, I'll play...doesn't the Aztec have a fairly restrictive max zero fuel wt?
 
Henning said:
Should be bit less that. I used to ferry the Brave on 14gph and 120 kts. You can turn up another 20gph and not not gain 15 kts, but the difference over a 250hp Pawnee getting a load into the air on hot day in the high plains is amazing. Queen Air ought to manage 180 on twice that run LOP, 28*$5.50 is $154 an hour call it $.85 or about 6.5mpg which is about what you get with a motor home.
Click to expand...

My math put it at 6.6MPG at 45% and with fuel prices in many areas north of $6/gal...
 
Same old stuff, finding airplanes and structuring deals for buyers--with reasonable success--and trying to find my golf swing with quite a bit less.

Things good with you? Catching any fish? Still flying fat Albert?


jasont said:
What the hell have you been up to Wayne?
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