Plane for teaching ,advise needed.

Discussion in 'Aerobatics' started by Birdbirdbird, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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    Hello everybody,

    Just complete my IFR, now getting my CPL. Planning to get CFI.

    Now i want to buy an aerobatic plane and learn to fly aerobatic, furthermore, i am planning to teach people around .( i have experience already,my skills are ok)
    I like Acrosport II , its very cheap and looks very very nice ,but its experimental and i cant figure out how to certify it for aerobatic trainings.
    What you could recommend me to do my goal?

    thanks a lot..
     
  2. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Yeah, you're going to have to go for a certified aerobatic, they exist.
     
  3. lr60plt

    lr60plt Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You will not be able to use an experimental for instruction for compensation...at least without a LOA.

    A Citabria or Decathlon would be good airplanes for instruction and are certified aerobatic airplanes.
     
  4. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The Avion 2160 Robyn is pretty cool as a through instrument trainer with aerobatic capability.
     
  5. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

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    I'd recommend the Decathlon (CS or Super D).
    The reason I wouldn't go for a Citabria is when learning aerobatics a fixed pitch prop can be a major pain in the arse. The student will have much easier time learning the actual maneuvers if he does not have to worry about over-raving the engine.
    The reason I wouldn't go for anything more advanced than a Decathlon is because it will be a lot more expensive, much harder to land, and you won't be teaching anything besides aerobatics in it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  6. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks for answers .
    But i prefer low wings and biplanes.
    As i understand, the Acrosport is certified by manufacture as produced aerobatic kit, so i can try to get the special airworthiness certificate on this great plane . Am i wrong?

    "Special Airworthiness Certificate
    Primary Category
    Print
    A Primary Category, special airworthiness certificate is issued to operate aircraft that have been type certificated in the primary category. Aircraft in this category are of a simple design and intended exclusively for pleasure and personal use. Although these aircraft may be available for rental and flight instruction under certain conditions, the carrying of persons or property for hire is prohibited.
    Aircraft certificated in this category must be manufactured under a production certificate. This includes aircraft assembled from a kit under the production certificate holder's supervision and quality control system. Kit-built aircraft built without the production certificate holder's supervision are only eligible for certification in the experimental category."
     
  7. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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    Can i certify it under part 23?
    Is it possible to do this?

    Sorry, i am just a new guy in that)
     
  8. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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    The budget is 30-50K.
     
  9. J3 Driver

    J3 Driver Pre-Flight

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    Doubt this is possible. All the LOA for experimental's that have been issues are just for transition training.
     
  10. J3 Driver

    J3 Driver Pre-Flight

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    The decathlon is a great training aircraft. A Pitts would be another good option.
     
  11. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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  12. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

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    Not sure if a Lancair fits your requirement. If you need to cruise fast and be able to maneuver it's great. But due to a high stall speed and difficult stall characteristics it might not the best plane for your needs.

    Note that I haven't actually flown one, so take it for what's it's worth.
     
  13. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    What are you thinking "certified" means? That word doesn't mean anything. The Acrosport is in the Experimental Amateur Built Category. The FAA will not issue an airworthiness certificate in any other category for that airplane.

    You must have a type-certificated airplane. This means factory-built by a manufacturer that has gone through the effort to get a type-certificate that conforms to certain requirements. You will not get a special airworthiness certificate without an airplane being TC'd. This means Experimental Amateur Builts are excluded.

    How much aerobatic experience do you have, and what type of training did you receive? You've listed a Lancair and a Glasair. First, these are Experimental Amateur Built airplanes. You can drop these from your list unless you can obtain a LODA from the FAA for a specific type of training. Secondly, these airplanes are terrible for aerobatic training. They are too slick. It has nothing to do with stall characteristics as mentioned above.

    You could use the Stearman, but it is not a good airplane for aerobatic training, since it is very costly for a very low level of performance, which nobody will want to fly except in reasonably warm weather. You will be spending much of the time climbing back to altitude. A 7ECA Citabria will give you the same aerobatic performance for a fraction of the cost.

    How many aerobatic airplanes have you actually flown? I think you may want to gain some additional experience and training before thinking about teaching aerobatics to others.

    If you are serious about your intentions and your budget, you are pretty much looking at a Citabria or maybe an old raggedy Decathlon.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
  14. lr60plt

    lr60plt Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yeah...it seems you have a bit of misunderstanding about aerobatic airplanes in general, not bringing instruction and regulations into the mix yet. Just keep plugging away at what your doing. Keep gaining aerobatic experience and understanding yourself...then maybe revisit your interest in aerobatic instruction later on down the road. Maybe just buy the acrosport now since you like it a lot...and it will prepare you to teach in the future with a different airplane.

    One other airplane you could consider in the future is the Great Lakes Biplane. Its Acrosport-"ish" and isn't as high performance as a Pitts..its performance is more comparable to a Decathlon. You could find one for ~60k and is a Certified Aerobatic airplane.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
  15. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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    Actually, i just try to find opportunities to not fly on high wing planes( i prefer low wings,or biplanes,don't ask me why)
    I don't ask you what to do first :to train, then buy a plane, teach . Or buy the plane , train on it, than teach on it.
    My experience is based on Yak18/52, L-29/39 in Russia :)
    So, i m asking for advise about which certified plane is more close for my requirements, thats it!)

    Anyway, thanks for your attention .

    PS
    I don't see the full picture ..
    I think, Pitts is too crazy for me (i'm not ready), but another planes (exclude Decathlon) i don't know.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  16. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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    obviously , Sup Decathlon is the best for my future student market)

    What about Zlin?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  17. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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    Looks great!
    I ll take it! :))

    I live in Florida, so open-cockpits are prefered! :)
     
  18. dukeblue219

    dukeblue219 Line Up and Wait

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    Do they make a two-seat aerobatic plane? As far as aerobatic instruction goes I think the answer from others is pretty clear -- Citabria or Decathlon are the two standards out there for a reason.
     
  19. lr60plt

    lr60plt Pre-takeoff checklist

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  20. Dean

    Dean Pattern Altitude

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  21. Birdbirdbird

    Birdbirdbird Filing Flight Plan

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  22. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    I hardly think buying an Experimental airplane, and having your aerobatic "students" acquire an ownership stake in the aiplane is a recipe for conducting ongoing aerobatic training. It would take significant time and effort on your part to even obtain a SINGLE partner in an experimental aerobatic airplane. And I'd bet anyone willing to do that already has aerobatic experience, rendering your services unnecessary.

    And I must ask - what is your motivation for wanting to be an aerobatic instructor? Are you just trying to get your "students" to subsidize your own flying - in an airplane that may not be ideal for aerobatic training? Do you care more about the actual quality of your teaching, and the suitibility of the airplane, or is this more about what YOU want?
     
  23. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I'm not so sure, I'd say it would depend on the market he's in, if he was here, I would buy in. In fact, it would be easy to sell 5 stakes (that's typically what the insurance companies allow without going to a full commercial policy) in an aerobatic plane club, and if you have a low equity commitment (say $150 club buy in and monthly that get you an hr a month included, then whatever hourly) getting them traded out will not be a problem in a metropolitan market.
     
  24. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    Anything's possible - it all depends on hooking up with the right people. I'm in a major metropolitan area with one of the largest EAA Chapters around, and have seen requests for partnerships in fun airplanes, and unless it's a 172 or a Cherokee, the response is generally crickets.

    But all that is a separate issue from that of finding an airplane to provide aerobatic instruction in. That is the OP's main question here. Great if you can form a club with an Experimental airplane to share costs for personal flying, but trying to set that up as a backdoor way to provide aerobatic instruction in an Experimental is not going to work out, since you will so rarely be able to procure any "students".
     
  25. lr60plt

    lr60plt Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Right...especially when 75% of the people are going to only go for one flight. Much of the business with aerobatic airplanes are just rides, gift certificates and cfi spin endorsement type flights. So when you spend all the time adding these people to your "club" for one or two flights then never see them again...its going to get old real quick.

    Why not just do it the right way from the start? The whole idea of instructing is teaching people how to do things correctly. So far this entire idea revolves around starting off doing the wrong thing with the wrong airplane...just because you "like" Acrosports.
     
  26. hook_dupin

    hook_dupin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There's still a few 152 Aerobats around. You can do primary training 80% of the time, then do spins and basic aerobatics. You won't win any contests, but you might get enough people hooked to grow into a Citabria or Super-D
     
  27. Alanvdleek

    Alanvdleek Filing Flight Plan

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    My local flight school uses a cessna 152 for aerobatics. It's not like a pitts S1, but you can do steep turns, stalls, spins and all that kinds of stuff with it, and it's all very easy to correct and not too high in costs.
    Regards!
    Alan
     
  28. Alanvdleek

    Alanvdleek Filing Flight Plan

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    Buy a Diamond da20 (2 seats) or da40 (4 seats), I'm a student pilot on a C172, but have flown the da40 once with my instructor, because the 172's were in maintenance (they swapped the lycoming engines for thielerts).
    They fly very stabile and are easy to land.
    I prefer the old cockpits instead of the g1000 cockpits, so I would buy a used low time one, but that's all preference. I didn't try it myself, but I've heard that they are also great for aerobatics. Good luck!
     
  29. Non Compos Mentis

    Non Compos Mentis Pre-takeoff checklist

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    De Havilland Chipmunk?

    Low wing, aerobatic. Not sure if they are within the budget, or how many are for sale.
     

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  30. Henning

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    There's also the Pilatus PC-3, Saia Marcheti SF-260, and Piaggio/Focke Wolfe 149 (although I'm not sure you're allowed to instruct in it in the US) which is 4 seat aerobatic, but I don't think you can get any of them including the Chipmunk in the price restriction.
     
  31. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    No - not a good airplane for aerobatics at all. And not designed or stressed for aerobatics. :frown2:
     
  32. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    Diamonds (some Diamonds) can be spun. That does NOT make them good for aerobatics.
     
  33. David

    David Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Great list of planes!!! Most Chipmunks, mine included, and I think the PC3 and FW149 are licensed in the experimental/exhibition category by the FAA so you can't use them for instruction. I think the Marchetti's have a standard license but they're terribly expensive.
     
  34. Henning

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    The Marchettis, at least some of them, must be standard, the Air Combat guys used them. I know most the FW-149s are since I was looking at buying one a ways back (still would like to have one but they've gone seriously up in price from the $40k you used to be able to get them for). Figures on the PC-3, didn't know that on the Chipmunk. The T-34 is another option, but again expensive.
     
  35. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    How about a Zlin 242?
     
  36. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think BirdBirdBird only focused on Acro Sport and when he realize Acro Sport dream not come true, I think he bail.
     
  37. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Not cheap either.
     
  38. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

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    DA20 is good for spin training, but you can't do aerobatics in it, legally at least. DA40 is also pretty good with spins, however it is not spin certified so again you have the legal problem. Either way though, those are good planes (for what they were build to do).
     
  39. kkoran

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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  40. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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