Plane down in segoville TX

acrophile said:
"Monday-morning quarterbacking" refers to retroactive advice about what someone should have done differently. Here, the only such advice has been that after a few disoriented missed approaches, the pilot should have diverted to nearby VMC. That's so obviously correct that I can't imagine why you're confident that someone will come here and "chew everyone's butt" for that assessment.







While some sort of medical incapacitation is plausible (see earlier posts), there's no apparent basis for speculating about one specific medical problem. Why that one in particular?
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Re-read what I said. Wasn't trying it to this person was just saying that is something I bet people don't consider.

You must enjoy conflict.
 
Clark1961 said:
driving around like a blind drunk because of ice? maybe...anything is possible - none of the ATC tapes linked here had a mention of ice
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Looking at the past SkewT's it looks like it was above freezing until 10K. Likely not a problem.
 
NOAA HQZ weather around the time of the accident 600 OVC 4-5 miles 46F/45F.

Why is it the less we know the greater our speculation? Learning is based on facts, not conjecture.
 
That is exactly what I would do if I didn't have any alternatives, meaning low on fuel and no nearby better weather. At least I would crash at the airport. ;) If you let the A/P fly an LPV or ILS and control the speed, all you need to do is reduce power at the threshold, it may not be pretty, but you'll be in the middle of the runway. :D
My CFII taught me that when I was learning instruments, if all else fails an ILS followed to the ground will end up on a long flat paved surface. :yes:

mikeinbama said:
I am a very low time pilot, so I may be way off here. Why not fly it to the runway? After 5 misses, the avionics in the airplane could take you to the threshold. Could it not? Your chances are better than zero even if you break out at 100 feet. I am not speaking as knowing, I am asking, in an extreme situation, wouldn't you just fly it in?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think to fly the ILS/LPV to the threshold, you have to be able to fly an instrument approach to minimums, at the very least. Clearly in this case, with apparently fairly benign weather conditions, this pilot was incapable of flying a straight line, let alone an instrument approach to minimums. So as others have suggested, there was something else going on.
 
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Just because you have a CPL-IR doesn't mean you're in a reliable position to successfully handle IMC. imo hobbyists don't have as much respect for IMC as they should have and they continue to die for it. That said, this is America, I stand behind their right to choose that; to go against that grain would hamper my own ability to exercise my passion and that's something I would definitively hate to see.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Seemed like an odd way to do it but then got to thinking if ever someone wanted to go that route, the GA plane is a smart way to go and life insurance pays out since it is not ruled as such.
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I'm not endorsing this course of action, but just so you know, most life-insurance policies will pay off for suicide after a waiting period (it's included in the actuarial calculations), but many will not pay off for a GA accident.
 
Lindberg said:
I'm not endorsing this course of action, but just so you know, most life-insurance policies will pay off for suicide after a waiting period (it's included in the actuarial calculations), but many will not pay off for a GA accident.
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Sweet!

I mean. That's interesting info.
 
N747JB said:
My CFII taught me that when I was learning instruments, if all else fails an ILS followed to the ground will end up on a long flat paved surface. :yes:
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And either be a whole lot closer to the Fire/Rescue equipment or be easier to find.
 
How much instrument time did he have? Many unanswered questions. Sure made bad decisions. Clutch city.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
attachment.php
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If you flip that over to IFR LO instead of Classic you can see the two fixes YEAGR and WELED that define the approach. Seems like only once did they even manage to pass over the iAF. And in most of the cases they seem to have had some difficulty making the turn at WELED. It seems incomprehensible you couldn't get close to the runway even with FOUR moving maps in front of you even if you can't figure out how to make approach mode drive the PFD display.
 
N747JB said:
That is exactly what I would do if I didn't have any alternatives, meaning low on fuel and no nearby better weather. At least I would crash at the airport. ;) If you let the A/P fly an LPV or ILS and control the speed, all you need to do is reduce power at the threshold, it may not be pretty, but you'll be in the middle of the runway. :D
My CFII taught me that when I was learning instruments, if all else fails an ILS followed to the ground will end up on a long flat paved surface. :yes:
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That is exactly like a story that was posted a while back about a KC-97 that made a zero-zero landing overseas. They flew it right down until the wheels touched (worked well since the Stratocruiser would typically land on the nose-wheel first).
 
I always told my students that when out of options, follow the ILS till you land or crash. At least you will slide to a stop with ARFF trucks right there. Its far better than planting it in the woods and waiting a week for them to find you.
 
n20junkie said:
I always told my students that when out of options, follow the ILS till you land or crash. At least you will slide to a stop with ARFF trucks right there. Its far better than planting it in the woods and waiting a week for them to find you.
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Agree.

And less likely to take out innocent people, property and possibly livestock in that area.

He was drunk...only drunk people fly like that.:eek:

Ok...ok....ok....maybe not...even drunk folks can follow a magenta line better than that!!;)
 
What was the reported ceiling at the time of the accident? As Mike said the approach will take you all the way to the ground. Even if the ceiling was reported 100' and 1/8 mile I feel like I could get it on the pavement successfully in an emergency situation. Still, I would have gone to Denton. When flying IFR I will only fly the approach once to avoid getting frustrated. If you've got the gas, the time, and the inclination it just makes more sense to go somewhere else IMO. No reason to spend more time than you have to trying something you know won't work.
 
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DavidWhite said:
What was the reported ceiling at the time of the accident? As Mike said the approach will take you all the way to the ground. Even if the ceiling was reported 100' and 1/8 mile I feel like I could get it on the pavement successfully in an emergency situation. Still, I would have gone to Denton. When flying IFR I will only fly the approach once to avoid getting frustrated. If you've got the gas, the time, and the inclination it just makes more sense to go somewhere else IMO. No reason to spend more time than you have to trying something you know won't work.
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Even ATC was frustrated with this guy if you listen to the tapes...and offered better alternatives.

Has most of us shaking our heads....:dunno:

Most of us know about the chain...and are aware of it for the most part...

This pilots chain awareness device was extended and ignored...which leads us all to say WTF????:mad2:
 
David, it was 600 feet overcast and four miles visibility. The wind was 5 MPH straight down the runway.

http://w1.weather.gov/data/obhistory/KHQZ.html

The approaches were taking place on the eighteenth at about 17:00 hours as I recall.

BTW, the link is to the three day history. If someone knows how to to freeze the picture in the three day history and post it in this thread, it might be useful during future discussion. The data won't be available from this source after about 36 hours from now.
 
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Okay, here's a copy of that evenings KHQZ weather captured for posterity:


19 00:35 N 6 5.00 Overcast OVC006 46 44 94% 43 NA 30.15 NA
19 00:15 N 6 4.00 Overcast OVC006 46 44 95% 43 NA 30.16 NA
18 23:55 NE 6 5.00 Overcast OVC006 46 44 47 46 94% 43 NA 30.17 NA
18 23:35 N 5 5.00 Overcast OVC006 46 44 93% 44 NA 30.17 NA
18 23:15 Calm 5.00 Overcast OVC006 46 44 93% NA NA 30.20 NA
18 22:55 N 7 5.00 Overcast OVC006 46 44 93% 42 NA 30.18 NA
18 22:35 N 6 5.00 Overcast OVC008 46 44 93% 43 NA 30.19 NA
18 22:15 N 7 5.00 Overcast BKN006 OVC023 46 44 93% 42 NA 30.17 NA
18 21:55 N 6 5.00 Overcast OVC006 46 44 93% 43 NA 30.17 NA
18 21:35 N 6 7.00 Overcast OVC008 46 44 93% 43 NA 30.17 NA
18 21:15 Calm 7.00 Overcast OVC008 46 44 92% NA NA 30.19 NA
18 20:55 Calm 7.00 Overcast OVC008 46 44 93% NA NA 30.18 NA
18 19:50 N 5 7.00 Overcast OVC008 46 45 93% 44 NA 30.19 NA
18 18:58 N 5 5.00 Fog/Mist OVC006 46 45 93% 44 NA 30.16 NA
18 17:50 N 5 4.00 Fog/Mist OVC006 46 45 93% 44 NA 30.13 NA
18 16:50 N 5 5.00 Fog/Mist OVC006 48 46 94% 46 NA 30.12 NA
18 15:50 NW 6 4.00 Fog/Mist OVC006 48 46 94% 45 NA 30.12 NA
18 13:50 Calm 5.00 Fog/Mist OVC004 46 45 93% NA NA 30.12 NA
 
N747JB said:
That is exactly what I would do if I didn't have any alternatives, meaning low on fuel and no nearby better weather. At least I would crash at the airport. ;) If you let the A/P fly an LPV or ILS and control the speed, all you need to do is reduce power at the threshold, it may not be pretty, but you'll be in the middle of the runway. :D
My CFII taught me that when I was learning instruments, if all else fails an ILS followed to the ground will end up on a long flat paved surface. :yes:
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I have heard two old pilots personally tell about their zero/zero landing experiences. One of them was a career Air Force pilot, did it in an F86. The other was a retired American Airlines pilot, did it in a DC8 IIRC, but it might have been something earlier than a DC8. Both of them were out of options and neither of them indicated a missed approach in the process. Of course that doesn't mean that there was not a missed approach involved, but they didn't mention it. I don't think the AA pilot did a missed approach because his dilemma was that he was carrying a scary amount of ice. Both of them said they flew until they felt the wheels touch.
 
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Hardly seems to be a zero-zero situation. They never (until they lost it completely) descended below 2000 (which is one of the intermediate altitudes and still well above the MDA). That's fortunate since they don't seem to have been particularly near the approach track.
 
flyingron said:
Hardly seems to be a zero-zero situation. They never (until they lost it completely) descended below 2000 (which is one of the intermediate altitudes and still well above the MDA). That's fortunate since they don't seem to have been particularly near the approach track.
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Toxicology report might be an interesting read.
 
Just a note for you guys that are unfamiliar, Mesquite is flat and wide open all around the airport. There is hardly a mesquite tree to hit in Mesquite. 600/4 is typically a yawner there.
 
Looking at the flight aware history, the plane had made the same trip in August IFR. I wonder what the conditions were then.
 
N801BH said:
No doubt..... Perfect VFR....
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Pretty close! Landed at 5pm cdt on 8/31


METAR/SPECI from KHQZ, Mesquite, Mesquite Metro Airport (United States).
SA 31/08/2014 22:50->
METAR KHQZ 312250Z 14009KT 10SM SCT050 34/18 A2989=
SA 31/08/2014 20:55->
METAR KHQZ 312055Z 14012G18KT 10SM SCT049 34/19 A2991=
SA 31/08/2014 19:50->
METAR KHQZ 311950Z 16013G20KT 10SM SCT043 33/20 A2993=
SA 31/08/2014 18:55->
METAR KHQZ 311855Z 15010G16KT 10SM SCT043 33/19 A2995=
SA 31/08/2014 17:55->
METAR KHQZ 311755Z 18008G14KT 10SM SCT041 33/19 A2996=
SA 31/08/2014 16:50->
METAR KHQZ 311650Z 15010KT 10SM SCT035 31/21 A2998=
SA 31/08/2014 15:50->
METAR KHQZ 311550Z 16006KT 10SM SCT035 30/22 A2999=
SA 31/08/2014 14:50->
METAR KHQZ 311450Z 16006KT 10SM CLR 28/22 A3000=
SA 31/08/2014 13:50->
METAR KHQZ 311350Z 16008KT 10SM FEW020 26/22 A2999=
SA 31/08/2014 12:50->
METAR KHQZ 311250Z 15006KT 10SM CLR 23/22 A2998=
SA 31/08/2014 11:50->
 
flyingron said:
Hardly seems to be a zero-zero situation. They never (until they lost it completely) descended below 2000 (which is one of the intermediate altitudes and still well above the MDA). That's fortunate since they don't seem to have been particularly near the approach track.
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If this was in response to my rambling about zero/zero approaches, I was doing that in response to the posts about following the approach all the way to the ground comments.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
Like a lot of accidents that involve bad pilot judgment, or a pilot getting in to something over his head, or pilot health, this one could have had a totally different outcome if his plane had a chute and he used it.
 
NoHeat said:
Like a lot of accidents that involve bad pilot judgment, or a pilot getting in to something over his head, or pilot health, this one could have had a totally different outcome if his plane had a chute and he used it.
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Sounds like ATC offered him a much better option just 25 miles away, so I doubt he would have pulled the chute if he had one.
 
The last leg on the track seems to be pointing towards Denton. Maybe he did decided to go there to late.
 
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