Plane Crashes in to NYC Highrise

bobloblaw310 said:
ReverendSlappy said:
This could entirely be coincidence, but if you go to http://www4.passur.com/lga.html and zoom into 5 miles, start it at about 14:47, and watch for a GA plane come up the East River at 1000FT... it winds up right at about 72nd street, if I'm reading the map correctly.

Use the link but set the time at 14:40 and watch a target at 700 feet decend to 600 feet and make a left turn exactly where the building would be and disappear. This is the plane.
Yeah, that could be it too. I'm not entirely sure of the timing, so I could be incorrect. Also, for what it's worth, they did just show the site from 14:47 on and the plane that I indicated too, and said it lined up perfectly with the timing of the crash. So I'm not sure exactly... There were a number of aircraft represented on that screen in that area around the time, so it's hard to say for certain.

Regardless, what a terrible incident. I feel for his family. But based on some video of him flying at some other time, he seemed to be very passionate about flying, so at least he spent his last few minutes doing something he loved.
 
smigaldi said:
He loved crashing?? I don't think so:(
Geeeesh... Yeah, re-reading that I guess it might not sound right.

But hopefully y'all got what I was trying to say...
 
igor said:
Bloomberg is a pilot:

Not to mention someone who frequently flies down to his house in Bermuda on the weekends ... and you know he's not going commercial ......

BTW, I have a bet going with a friend for how long it will take for Da Mere to call for a ban on flights over Chicago. I'm saying less than 24 hours (it's a safe bet)

EH
 
I heard fighter jets continuously for about an hour over my north Fort Worth home after this crash, which I found odd (that's not usual) til I read this:

The crash prompted a swift scramble from local authorities and the federal government. The White House was notified and North American Aerospace Defense Command said it authorized fighter aircraft into the air over numerous U.S. cities, as NORAD did after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Did any of you in other big cities observe this?
 
wsuffa said:
Perhaps. But then again, there are the rules that were imposed after the Munson crash... And the Dubroff crash... and the rock&roll crash... and...
Well, maybe the next rule will be "no licenses issued to Yankee ballplayers" and not something more draconian.

It is quite sad for the family, though. Was just watching Paula Zahn on CNN and they showed a cable sportsnet video of him flying and discussing his passion for flying.

-Rich
 
Baldwin? What's he doing in NYC? I thought he promised he would move to Canada or somewhere.
 
I heard that Pataki got the FAA to put in a TFR to close the Hudson VFR corridor. Anybody seen that yet?
 
New York Times - "As a result of the crash, federal aviation officials immediately ordered that all planes flying below 1,500 feet over New York City be under the authorization of air traffic control. Gov. George E. Pataki called for that temporary restriction to remain in place indefinitely."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/12/nyregion/12how.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Anybody know if this is true? I don't like seeing the words "temporary restriction" and "indefinitely" in the same sentance.
 
That is just another example of the media misinterpreting reality. They had a TFR in place immediately after the crash, it was lifted soon after firefighting operations were over. No other restriction was put in place. As to whether Pataki said that....I wouldn't be surprised.
 
TMetzinger said:
One comment I hadn't heard before is the report that the female in the airplane was his CFI.

So much for that theory
NEW YORK (CNN) -- The flight instructor who died with baseball pitcher Cory Lidle when their plane slammed into a skyscraper in Manhattan was identified by police as Tyler Stanger.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/12/plane.crash/index.html

These news people seem tog et everything wrong. Pretty soon they will find out that it was not a plane crash at all. :mad:
 
Oh for crying out loud - just seen on MSNBC:
"BREAKING NEWS - PROPELLERS WERE TURNING ON PLANE WHEN IT HIT BUILDING"

Well, ok, so that means the engine wasn't siezed up... so?
 
Greebo said:
Oh for crying out loud - just seen on MSNBC:
"BREAKING NEWS - PROPELLERS WERE TURNING ON PLANE WHEN IT HIT BUILDING"

Well, ok, so that means the engine wasn't siezed up... so?
Small airplanes have propellers?!? No one ever told me that....let's ban airplanes from airports too, they may pose as a big hazard for people walking around at the airport.

If the media outlets ever compared statistics between car crashes and airplane crashes, they'd simply be amazed. Oh, I forgot...they don't want the general public to know that.

Sigh..
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
If the media outlets ever compared statistics between car crashes and airplane crashes, they'd simply be amazed. Oh, I forgot...they don't want the general public to know that.

Sigh..

Imagine that! The media reporting with any detail on the amount of automobile accidents nationwide. No, that would freak too many people out. After all, everyone drives a car, they don't want to be reminded that its not safe to get into their automobile.
:frog:
 
ANN is reporting that there was no mayday call. They're also attributing the "propeller was spinning therefore still had power" thing to an NTSB spokesperson. Odd, ANN is an aviation new site and should at least comment on the weirdness of that statement. Could the NTSB person mean that the damage was such that it was spinning under power? I guess it might be possible to tell that from the type of damage.

http://www.aero-news.net/
 
cwyckham said:
Could the NTSB person mean that the damage was such that it was spinning under power? I guess it might be possible to tell that from the type of damage.
I heard that the propellers were spinning. Must be one of those multi-engine Cirri. Would that be the SR-40?:rolleyes:

-Skip
 
tonycondon said:
LOL Wolf Blitzer just called Teterboro a small airport in northern new jersey! WTF!!???

That's actually not too far off the mark. Large airports are usually considered by lay people what we call Class Bs with large passenge concourses and such. TEB IIRC is a D. They only go by what they see which is the terminal facilities, not the runways.
 
This AM on CNN there was a segment with a pilot taking a news crew along on a trip in a SR-20 following the route of Lidle's similar airplane. They flew down the East River and made a U turn about where Lidle supposedly did but they did it 1000 ft above the buildings for safety. It was made pretty clear that such a turn down lower would have been pretty risky.

Assuming for a moment that this was indeed a canyon turn gone awry (AFaIK there's insufficient evidence to point to that as a reasonably certain conclusion), I have to wonder why a pilot would hit a building even then. It seems like there would have been room to slip between the buildings while climbing to a safer altitude. Even if you were having engine problems I'd think you could manage to avoid hitting the broad side of a high rise and crash onto the streets in between the walls.
 
Enough is enough
BY PHIL BOYER

Mayor Daley's latest rants have sent me over the edge. He used the accident in New York to once again demand a no-fly zone over downtown Chicago for general aviation aircraft.


It was expected, of course. He has an irrational hatred for piston-engine aircraft, as evidenced by his illogical tirade this week. "They should not jeopardize, through intentionally or by accident, a single- or two-engine plane flying over our city [sic]," the Meigs Field destroyer exploded at a press conference. (I don't think he was including Boeing 737s, 757s, and 767s in his list of twin-engine aircraft.) "Remember: a single- or two-engine plane can kill as many people as possible if they want to."

And if it were just Daley, I'd ignore his ravings, just as the folks in the federal government in charge of security and airspace do.

But it's not just him. Other politicians (with the spectacular and notable exception of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg) and self-appointed "experts" are jumping on the tragic accident — repeat, accident — in New York to sound off again about the "danger" of light aircraft, and how they must be regulated, restricted, banned.

OK, for all of those ranting about "threats" from GA aircraft, we'll believe that you're really serious about controlling "threats" when you call for:

Banning all vans within cities. A small panel van was used in the first World Trade Center attack. The bomb, which weighed 1,500 pounds, killed six and injured 1,042.
Banning all box trucks from cities. Timothy McVeigh's rented Ryder truck carried a 5,000-pound bomb that killed 168 in Oklahoma City.
Banning all semi-trailer trucks. They can carry bombs weighing more than 50,000 pounds.
Banning newspapers on subways. That's how the terrorists hid packages of sarin nerve gas in the Tokyo subway system. They killed 12.
Banning backpacks on all buses and subways. That's how the terrorists got the bombs into the London subway system. They killed 52.
Banning all cell phones on trains. That's how they detonated the bombs in backpacks placed on commuter trains in Madrid. They killed 191.
Banning all small pleasure boats on public waterways. That's how terrorists attacked the USS Cole, killing 17.
Banning all heavy or bulky clothing in all public places. That's how suicide bombers hide their murderous charges. Thousands killed.
Number of people killed by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.

Number of people injured by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.

Property damage from a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? None.

So Mr. Mayor (and Mr. Governor, Ms. Senator, Mr. Congressman, and Mr. "Expert"), if you're truly serious about "protecting" the public, advocate all of the bans I've listed above. Using the "logic" you apply to general aviation aircraft, you're forced to conclude that newspapers, winter coats, cell phones, backpacks, trucks, and boats all pose much greater risks to the public.

So be consistent in your logic. If you are dead set on restricting a personal transportation system that carries more passengers than any single airline, reaches more American cities than all the airlines combined, provides employment for 1.3 million American citizens and $160 billion in business "to protect the public," then restrict or control every other transportation system that the terrorists have demonstrated they can use to kill.

If you're not willing to be consistent, then we might think that you're pandering to uninformed public fears, posturing from the soapbox of demagoguery, screaming security for your own political ends.
 
NC19143 said:
Enough is enough
BY PHIL BOYER

Mayor Daley's latest rants have sent me over the edge. He used the accident in New York to once again demand a no-fly zone over downtown Chicago for general aviation aircraft.

Be consistent in your logic. If you are dead set on restricting a personal transportation system that carries more passengers than any single airline, reaches more American cities than all the airlines combined, provides employment for 1.3 million American citizens and $160 billion in business "to protect the public," then restrict or control every other transportation system that the terrorists have demonstrated they can use to kill. If you're not willing to be consistent, then we might think that you're pandering to uninformed public fears, posturing from the soapbox of demagoguery, screaming security for your own political ends.

...was how that should have read, if he wanted, the rest could go below that.

Most people don't have the attention span to get the most impoetant paragraph which is the one I highlighted. Mr Boyer needs to take some of that money and pay a better speech writer. His articles are largely ineffectual.
 
lancefisher said:
This AM on CNN there was a segment with a pilot taking a news crew along on a trip in a SR-20 following the route of Lidle's similar airplane. They flew down the East River and made a U turn about where Lidle supposedly did but they did it 1000 ft above the buildings for safety. It was made pretty clear that such a turn down lower would have been pretty risky.

Assuming for a moment that this was indeed a canyon turn gone awry (AFaIK there's insufficient evidence to point to that as a reasonably certain conclusion), I have to wonder why a pilot would hit a building even then. It seems like there would have been room to slip between the buildings while climbing to a safer altitude. Even if you were having engine problems I'd think you could manage to avoid hitting the broad side of a high rise and crash onto the streets in between the walls.


Lance, I talked to a pilot that says he flew it 30 minutes before the crash (Hudson side only) and he swears the ceiling was 1100 and dropping. Don't really know the guy so maybe he's a talker but...
 
lancefisher said:
Assuming for a moment that this was indeed a canyon turn gone awry (AFaIK there's insufficient evidence to point to that as a reasonably certain conclusion), I have to wonder why a pilot would hit a building even then. It seems like there would have been room to slip between the buildings while climbing to a safer altitude. Even if you were having engine problems I'd think you could manage to avoid hitting the broad side of a high rise and crash onto the streets in between the walls.
[PURE SPECULATION MODE ON]
Going from memory, ATC reported the cirrus groundspeed as 113 or so. With the winds that existed at the time, the airspeed would be 120 + or -, given that it was not a direct headwind. At that speed, the cirrus would need the whole width of the canyon and maybe more. Unless the pilot were anticipating the need for a very tight turn, I speculate that he was not exactly at the eastern edge of the canyon, entered his turn slowly, and didn't really crank it around. Now he sees that his turn is going to cross the western shoreline into the B space over Manhattan, so he cranks it up to a 60 degree bank or more.

Sounds like a recipe for an accelerated stall.

If this happened, the pilots could have been utilizing the traditional stall recovery methods.... level the wings, lower the nose, add power, and oops! Building at 12 o'clock.

[PURE SPECULATION MODE OFF]

-Skip
 
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corjulo said:
Lance, I talked to a pilot that says he flew it 30 minutes before the crash (Hudson side only) and he swears the ceiling was 1100 and dropping. Don't really know the guy so maybe he's a talker but...
It was probably a little higher than 1100. I could see the top of the Empire state building. It still wasn't great, and 20 mins after the time of the accident, the top of the ESB was starting to become obscured.
 
Skip Miller said:
Sounds like a recipe for an accelerated stall.

If this happened, the pilots could have been utilizing the traditional stall recovery methods.... level the wings, lower the nose, add power, and oops! Building at 12 o'clock.

-Skip

'Traditional' kills a lot of pilots. Stalls are always due to excessive angle of attack. 'Forward with the stick' (even a little) should be the first thing you do before leveling the wings. Leveling the wings will NEVER break a stall, but it can turn a stall into a spin... get that stick forward first!
 
Troy Whistman said:
'Traditional' kills a lot of pilots. Stalls are always due to excessive angle of attack. 'Forward with the stick' (even a little) should be the first thing you do before leveling the wings. Leveling the wings will NEVER break a stall, but it can turn a stall into a spin... get that stick forward first!
No argument from me on that.

Does anyone know the stall characteristics of a Cirrus? Is the "break" sudden and strong? Suddenly finding yourself with a lot more bank than you wanted could cause you to level it out. Remember all these possibilities that I have mentioned are purely hypothetical: In the words of John Banner: "I know Notthing!

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Does anyone know the stall characteristics of a Cirrus? Is the "break" sudden and strong?

Caveat: It's been almost 3 years since I flew an SR22, but IIRC the Cirrus doesn't have much of a break at all, it just kinda sits there and mushes.
 
im in the same boat as kent, its been a while since i flew the SR22. but i do specifically remembering it to have very docile stall characteristics
 
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