Plane Crashes in to NYC Highrise

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by HPNFlyGirl, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. ReverendSlappy

    ReverendSlappy Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Yeah, that could be it too. I'm not entirely sure of the timing, so I could be incorrect. Also, for what it's worth, they did just show the site from 14:47 on and the plane that I indicated too, and said it lined up perfectly with the timing of the crash. So I'm not sure exactly... There were a number of aircraft represented on that screen in that area around the time, so it's hard to say for certain.

    Regardless, what a terrible incident. I feel for his family. But based on some video of him flying at some other time, he seemed to be very passionate about flying, so at least he spent his last few minutes doing something he loved.
     
  2. alaskaflyer

    alaskaflyer Final Approach

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  3. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    He loved crashing?? I don't think so:(
     
  4. ReverendSlappy

    ReverendSlappy Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Geeeesh... Yeah, re-reading that I guess it might not sound right.

    But hopefully y'all got what I was trying to say...
     
  5. EHITCH

    EHITCH Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not to mention someone who frequently flies down to his house in Bermuda on the weekends ... and you know he's not going commercial ......

    BTW, I have a bet going with a friend for how long it will take for Da Mere to call for a ban on flights over Chicago. I'm saying less than 24 hours (it's a safe bet)

    EH
     
  6. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    Yeah I was just being a bit of a smart ...... ;-)
     
  7. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I heard fighter jets continuously for about an hour over my north Fort Worth home after this crash, which I found odd (that's not usual) til I read this:

    Did any of you in other big cities observe this?
     
  8. rpadula

    rpadula En-Route

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    Well, maybe the next rule will be "no licenses issued to Yankee ballplayers" and not something more draconian.

    It is quite sad for the family, though. Was just watching Paula Zahn on CNN and they showed a cable sportsnet video of him flying and discussing his passion for flying.

    -Rich
     
  9. Anthony

    Anthony Touchdown! Greaser!

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  10. flyersfan31

    flyersfan31 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Baldwin? What's he doing in NYC? I thought he promised he would move to Canada or somewhere.
     
  11. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    it IS just like Team America
     
  12. mikea

    mikea Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    I heard that Pataki got the FAA to put in a TFR to close the Hudson VFR corridor. Anybody seen that yet?
     
  13. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    nothing on tfr.faa.gov or aopa yet...
     
  14. bkreager

    bkreager Pre-takeoff checklist

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    New York Times - "As a result of the crash, federal aviation officials immediately ordered that all planes flying below 1,500 feet over New York City be under the authorization of air traffic control. Gov. George E. Pataki called for that temporary restriction to remain in place indefinitely."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/12/nyregion/12how.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
    Anybody know if this is true? I don't like seeing the words "temporary restriction" and "indefinitely" in the same sentance.
     
  15. alaskaflyer

    alaskaflyer Final Approach

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    That is just another example of the media misinterpreting reality. They had a TFR in place immediately after the crash, it was lifted soon after firefighting operations were over. No other restriction was put in place. As to whether Pataki said that....I wouldn't be surprised.
     
  16. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    So much for that theory
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/12/plane.crash/index.html

    These news people seem tog et everything wrong. Pretty soon they will find out that it was not a plane crash at all. :mad:
     
  17. sbonek

    sbonek Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think that's where they started.... it was originally reported as being a Helo, and not Fixed Wing...
     
  18. Greebo

    Greebo N9017H - C172M (1976)

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    Oh for crying out loud - just seen on MSNBC:
    "BREAKING NEWS - PROPELLERS WERE TURNING ON PLANE WHEN IT HIT BUILDING"

    Well, ok, so that means the engine wasn't siezed up... so?
     
  19. HPNPilot1200

    HPNPilot1200 En-Route

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    Small airplanes have propellers?!? No one ever told me that....let's ban airplanes from airports too, they may pose as a big hazard for people walking around at the airport.

    If the media outlets ever compared statistics between car crashes and airplane crashes, they'd simply be amazed. Oh, I forgot...they don't want the general public to know that.

    Sigh..
     
  20. glpilot

    glpilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Imagine that! The media reporting with any detail on the amount of automobile accidents nationwide. No, that would freak too many people out. After all, everyone drives a car, they don't want to be reminded that its not safe to get into their automobile.
    :frog:
     
  21. cwyckham

    cwyckham Line Up and Wait

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    ANN is reporting that there was no mayday call. They're also attributing the "propeller was spinning therefore still had power" thing to an NTSB spokesperson. Odd, ANN is an aviation new site and should at least comment on the weirdness of that statement. Could the NTSB person mean that the damage was such that it was spinning under power? I guess it might be possible to tell that from the type of damage.

    http://www.aero-news.net/
     
  22. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

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    I heard that the propellers were spinning. Must be one of those multi-engine Cirri. Would that be the SR-40?:rolleyes:

    -Skip
     
  23. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    That's actually not too far off the mark. Large airports are usually considered by lay people what we call Class Bs with large passenge concourses and such. TEB IIRC is a D. They only go by what they see which is the terminal facilities, not the runways.
     
  24. gismo

    gismo Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This AM on CNN there was a segment with a pilot taking a news crew along on a trip in a SR-20 following the route of Lidle's similar airplane. They flew down the East River and made a U turn about where Lidle supposedly did but they did it 1000 ft above the buildings for safety. It was made pretty clear that such a turn down lower would have been pretty risky.

    Assuming for a moment that this was indeed a canyon turn gone awry (AFaIK there's insufficient evidence to point to that as a reasonably certain conclusion), I have to wonder why a pilot would hit a building even then. It seems like there would have been room to slip between the buildings while climbing to a safer altitude. Even if you were having engine problems I'd think you could manage to avoid hitting the broad side of a high rise and crash onto the streets in between the walls.
     
  25. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Enough is enough
    BY PHIL BOYER

    Mayor Daley's latest rants have sent me over the edge. He used the accident in New York to once again demand a no-fly zone over downtown Chicago for general aviation aircraft.


    It was expected, of course. He has an irrational hatred for piston-engine aircraft, as evidenced by his illogical tirade this week. "They should not jeopardize, through intentionally or by accident, a single- or two-engine plane flying over our city [sic]," the Meigs Field destroyer exploded at a press conference. (I don't think he was including Boeing 737s, 757s, and 767s in his list of twin-engine aircraft.) "Remember: a single- or two-engine plane can kill as many people as possible if they want to."

    And if it were just Daley, I'd ignore his ravings, just as the folks in the federal government in charge of security and airspace do.

    But it's not just him. Other politicians (with the spectacular and notable exception of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg) and self-appointed "experts" are jumping on the tragic accident — repeat, accident — in New York to sound off again about the "danger" of light aircraft, and how they must be regulated, restricted, banned.

    OK, for all of those ranting about "threats" from GA aircraft, we'll believe that you're really serious about controlling "threats" when you call for:

    Banning all vans within cities. A small panel van was used in the first World Trade Center attack. The bomb, which weighed 1,500 pounds, killed six and injured 1,042.
    Banning all box trucks from cities. Timothy McVeigh's rented Ryder truck carried a 5,000-pound bomb that killed 168 in Oklahoma City.
    Banning all semi-trailer trucks. They can carry bombs weighing more than 50,000 pounds.
    Banning newspapers on subways. That's how the terrorists hid packages of sarin nerve gas in the Tokyo subway system. They killed 12.
    Banning backpacks on all buses and subways. That's how the terrorists got the bombs into the London subway system. They killed 52.
    Banning all cell phones on trains. That's how they detonated the bombs in backpacks placed on commuter trains in Madrid. They killed 191.
    Banning all small pleasure boats on public waterways. That's how terrorists attacked the USS Cole, killing 17.
    Banning all heavy or bulky clothing in all public places. That's how suicide bombers hide their murderous charges. Thousands killed.
    Number of people killed by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.

    Number of people injured by a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? Zero.

    Property damage from a terrorist attack using a GA aircraft? None.

    So Mr. Mayor (and Mr. Governor, Ms. Senator, Mr. Congressman, and Mr. "Expert"), if you're truly serious about "protecting" the public, advocate all of the bans I've listed above. Using the "logic" you apply to general aviation aircraft, you're forced to conclude that newspapers, winter coats, cell phones, backpacks, trucks, and boats all pose much greater risks to the public.

    So be consistent in your logic. If you are dead set on restricting a personal transportation system that carries more passengers than any single airline, reaches more American cities than all the airlines combined, provides employment for 1.3 million American citizens and $160 billion in business "to protect the public," then restrict or control every other transportation system that the terrorists have demonstrated they can use to kill.

    If you're not willing to be consistent, then we might think that you're pandering to uninformed public fears, posturing from the soapbox of demagoguery, screaming security for your own political ends.
     
  26. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    ...was how that should have read, if he wanted, the rest could go below that.

    Most people don't have the attention span to get the most impoetant paragraph which is the one I highlighted. Mr Boyer needs to take some of that money and pay a better speech writer. His articles are largely ineffectual.
     
  27. corjulo

    corjulo Line Up and Wait

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    Lance, I talked to a pilot that says he flew it 30 minutes before the crash (Hudson side only) and he swears the ceiling was 1100 and dropping. Don't really know the guy so maybe he's a talker but...
     
  28. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

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    [PURE SPECULATION MODE ON]
    Going from memory, ATC reported the cirrus groundspeed as 113 or so. With the winds that existed at the time, the airspeed would be 120 + or -, given that it was not a direct headwind. At that speed, the cirrus would need the whole width of the canyon and maybe more. Unless the pilot were anticipating the need for a very tight turn, I speculate that he was not exactly at the eastern edge of the canyon, entered his turn slowly, and didn't really crank it around. Now he sees that his turn is going to cross the western shoreline into the B space over Manhattan, so he cranks it up to a 60 degree bank or more.

    Sounds like a recipe for an accelerated stall.

    If this happened, the pilots could have been utilizing the traditional stall recovery methods.... level the wings, lower the nose, add power, and oops! Building at 12 o'clock.

    [PURE SPECULATION MODE OFF]

    -Skip
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2006
  29. infotango

    infotango Line Up and Wait

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    It was probably a little higher than 1100. I could see the top of the Empire state building. It still wasn't great, and 20 mins after the time of the accident, the top of the ESB was starting to become obscured.
     
  30. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Touchdown! Greaser!

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    'Traditional' kills a lot of pilots. Stalls are always due to excessive angle of attack. 'Forward with the stick' (even a little) should be the first thing you do before leveling the wings. Leveling the wings will NEVER break a stall, but it can turn a stall into a spin... get that stick forward first!
     
  31. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

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    No argument from me on that.

    Does anyone know the stall characteristics of a Cirrus? Is the "break" sudden and strong? Suddenly finding yourself with a lot more bank than you wanted could cause you to level it out. Remember all these possibilities that I have mentioned are purely hypothetical: In the words of John Banner: "I know Notthing!

    -Skip
     
  32. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Caveat: It's been almost 3 years since I flew an SR22, but IIRC the Cirrus doesn't have much of a break at all, it just kinda sits there and mushes.
     
  33. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    im in the same boat as kent, its been a while since i flew the SR22. but i do specifically remembering it to have very docile stall characteristics