Pirates yet again with an American ship

There was something on the radio that these goofs don't meet the definition of "pirates" by Lloyds of London because a pirate has to act within a range of shore. These are on the open sea so they're called something else and different rules and (maybe no) laws apply.
 
Are you under any restrictions regarding changing your mind regarding your course of action, say after you let them flee for about 50 yards?

If they are fleeing unarmed, yes. If I want to kill them, I need to do it at the appropriate time. If I let them flee, I have to let them flee. Regardless of the legal obligation, it would violate my personal morals. Attack me I kill you= ok. Running away I kill you = not ok.
 
Same results, no cleanup required. I can't imagine how you could safely detain them on a pleasure boat. An Irwin 64 was the biggest one I ever sailed, and did not have a brig. But we would have been the dead ones anyway, so it didn't really matter.

When did the pirate thing become a threat (within the past 40 years?) Seems like people used to sail around the world frequently, now all those I know stop in Australia and either sail them back or ship them back. When I got somewhat serious about some long-distance cruising in the mid 90's it seemed to be all over the news. A few years earlier nobody said much about it.

If they are fleeing unarmed, yes. If I want to kill them, I need to do it at the appropriate time. If I let them flee, I have to let them flee. Regardless of the legal obligation, it would violate my personal morals. Attack me I kill you= ok. Running away I kill you = not ok.
 
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What would it take to put up a KEYHOLE aircraft to monitor all sea traffic, and make it know that any approach to a merchant vessel will be met with EXTREME, PREJUDICIAL FORCE?
Think they'll back off a bit if a few of their boats are blown out of the water?

It's possible but to no feasibly practical effect. You can monitor all you want, the truth is, the seas while vast are crowded, and due to topography, there are areas of shipping traffic where vessels are funneled through and and many vessels pass close aboard every day. Only a very very small fraction of a percent of vessels pose any risk. Due to the low speed of vessels, they follow the most direct route between these points and ports. You be issuing tens and hundreds of thousands of warnings for every credible threat.
 
Same results, no cleanup required. I can't imagine how you could safely detain them on a pleasure boat. An Irwin 64 was the biggest one I ever sailed, and did not have a brig. But we would have been the dead ones anyway, so it didn't really matter.

When did the pirate thing become a theat (within the past 40 years?) Seems like people used to sail around the world frequently, now all those I know stop in Australia and either sail them back or ship them back. When I got somewhat serious about some long-distance cruising in the mid 90's it seemed to be all over the news. A few years earlier nobody said much about it.
As to the Pacific/Asia theatre, I'm unconcerned with a pleasure vessel, I have nothing they want and am armed to repel them. I also have the option of taking routes not available to deep draft merchant vessels where those pirates hang out because they are the targets there. The current Caribbean threat against pleasure vessels started with cocaine smuggling and The War On Drugs.

The guys who go to Aus and ship the boat back do so because they have been beat up enough and are now finished. The cheapest place to buy a good boat is Tahiti because by there, the wife got off with her luggage and said "The Boat or Me", and it's cheaper to get rid of the boat.
 
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The guys who go to Aus and ship the boat back do so because they have been beat up enough and are now finished. The cheapest place to buy a good boat is Tahiti because by there, the wife got off with her luggage and said "The Boat or Me", and it's cheaper to get rid of the boat.
Lot of that in Hawaii too. tons of California guys take their boat to the island thinking it is not too far. Surprise, surprise, surprise!
 
The cheapest place to buy a good boat is Tahiti because by there, the wife got off with her luggage and said "The Boat or Me", and it's cheaper to get rid of the boat.


You know that sounds funny, but I am sure that is the God's honest truth.
 
You know that sounds funny, but I am sure that is the God's honest truth.

I've been contracted to bring back more than one boat from Tahiti that was bought there at bargain basement price.
 
Henning...I meant REALLY arm the ships. No more "prohibitions" (nod, nod, wink, wink) on firearms. Security contingents on all vessels passing through these areas and HEAVY WEAPONS capability, at least 50cal and RPG's for the crews.

I am sorry folks, but read the articles and do some research, we are dealing with people where "talk" and threats of "going to jail" mean NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING.

This is the real world where talk and diplomacy are laughed at and seen as weakness. All the huffing and puffing and rhetoric does nothing....kill the pirates and this will stop. Otherwise it will simply continue.

BTW....perhaps it is time to bring back Letters of Marquis and turn this problem over to private pirate hunters...obviously our modern, by the law, overly lawyer'd, wussified system cannot seem to solve this problem.
 
^^^^^^^^


Agree with the above. Arm a few vessels and make them look unarmed and easy prey. Pirates attack a few of these and get blown out of the water, they will think twice about attacking any ship again. Problem solved.
 
This is the real world where talk and diplomacy are laughed at and seen as weakness. All the huffing and puffing and rhetoric does nothing....kill the pirates and this will stop. Otherwise it will simply continue.
Amen. This is the only way to solve the problem. Wipe them from the face of the earth without mercy.

BTW....perhaps it is time to bring back Letters of Marquis and turn this problem over to private pirate hunters...obviously our modern, by the law, overly lawyer'd, wussified system cannot seem to solve this problem.
Indeed. That makes too much sense for it to ever happen, though. The proper term, BTW, is "letter of marque".
 
someone above asked "how long has this been going on" or something similar ...I recall back in the '70s when transiting the Straits of Malacca (near Singapore) on both the Ranger and Connie, we had armed watches posted to repel pirates. What kind of balls or stupidity would it take to attack a US aircraft carrier battle group (carrier, destroyers, frigates, etc) in wooden boats and small arms?
 
I am far from being an expert, and perhaps there are other reasons, but it seems to me that this non-violent approach to pirates is like the old attitude about hijackers back before 9-11. Just cooperate, give them what they want, and they will leave everyone alone. That is what they tell convenience store clerks. I wonder how many convenience store clerks end up getting shot after handing over the cash? Many people probably know me as being pretty liberal, but I refuse to be a victim. My first reaction to everything is not to start shooting everyone in sight, but standing there and doing nothing isn't an option either. If I were out to sea, I would want some firepower, just in case my evasive efforts didn't work.
 
someone above asked "how long has this been going on" or something similar ...I recall back in the '70s when transiting the Straits of Malacca (near Singapore) on both the Ranger and Connie, we had armed watches posted to repel pirates. What kind of balls or stupidity would it take to attack a US aircraft carrier battle group (carrier, destroyers, frigates, etc) in wooden boats and small arms?
Piracy has been going on since shortly after there boats were invented. I am not aware of any period in history that was devoid of pirates.
 
I am far from being an expert, and perhaps there are other reasons, but it seems to me that this non-violent approach to pirates is like the old attitude about hijackers back before 9-11. Just cooperate, give them what they want, and they will leave everyone alone. That is what they tell convenience store clerks. I wonder how many convenience store clerks end up getting shot after handing over the cash? Many people probably know me as being pretty liberal, but I refuse to be a victim. My first reaction to everything is not to start shooting everyone in sight, but standing there and doing nothing isn't an option either. If I were out to sea, I would want some firepower, just in case my evasive efforts didn't work.
I think some firepower is appropriate. But given that piracy is about 1/2 of one percent of a problem I am sure the real issue has been ROI by the shipping companies on defensive systems. IOW they are will to accept the losses as a cheaper alternative to increasing armament systems.
 
Impossible to do. You may wipe out one group but another will simply take its place. Has been that way for thousands of years.
You do it enough, and one of two things will happen: either people wise up and find other ways to live, or else the population of people who would take up piracy is reduced to zero. Either way, no more problem.

We won't do it, of course. We no longer have the testicular fortitude to stand up to those who would destroy us.
 
You do it enough, and one of two things will happen: either people wise up and find other ways to live, or else the population of people who would take up piracy is reduced to zero. Either way, no more problem.

We won't do it, of course. We no longer have the testicular fortitude to stand up to those who would destroy us.
Hasn't worked yet. Just look at history and you can see that. Piracy in the Caribbean was a huge issue of the day for the British. They set out to destroy the pirates and in the end there were still pirates, there are still pirates, and nothing changed. Zero tolerance wars don't work, never have, never will. What you have to do is drive the issue down into the noise. High seas piracy is actually a small problem. The only thing that has changed is that it is being reported on more lately. There is no huge uptick in piracy.
 
What you have to do is drive the issue down into the noise.
For the victims, it doesn't matter if the issue is down in the noise. They're still just as robbed, just as raped, just as dead.

High seas piracy is actually a small problem. The only thing that has changed is that it is being reported on more lately. There is no huge uptick in piracy.
So, if the media didn't report on it, it wouldn't be a problem any more?
 
For the victims, it doesn't matter if the issue is down in the noise. They're still just as robbed, just as raped, just as dead.
So you want to fund the US Navy or US Coast Guard to accompany every US flagged ship around the world? Or do you just want each cargo vessel to be equipped and staffed like a war ship? Either of those will increase the costs of goods sky high and kill a lot of international commerce.

So, if the media didn't report on it, it wouldn't be a problem any more?
It is not a major problem now.
 
Have you come across any decent wives to bring back for similar reasons?
I've been contracted to bring back more than one boat from Tahiti that was bought there at bargain basement price.
 
So you want to fund the US Navy or US Coast Guard to accompany every US flagged ship around the world? Or do you just want each cargo vessel to be equipped and staffed like a war ship? Either of those will increase the costs of goods sky high and kill a lot of international commerce.
I expect a few Q-ships, plus a few heavily armed merchanters, would solve the problem handily.

So, if the media didn't report on it, it wouldn't be a problem any more?
It is not a major problem now.
That wasn't my question. Would it be a problem any more? If it would,t hen what the media reports or doesn't isn't the issue.
 
Piracy has been going on since shortly after there boats were invented. I am not aware of any period in history that was devoid of pirates.

Impossible to do. You may wipe out one group but another will simply take its place. Has been that way for thousands of years.

That's about the size of it. Piracy has been dealt with by accepting it as a cost of doing business in certain parts of the world, and occasional military intervention.
 
You do it enough, and one of two things will happen: either people wise up and find other ways to live, or else the population of people who would take up piracy is reduced to zero. Either way, no more problem.

We won't do it, of course. We no longer have the testicular fortitude to stand up to those who would destroy us.

I'd say it's a costs-benefit analysis. If piracy causes $1B in damages a year, but it costs $10B to deal with it in a manner that history has proven doesn't work, I'd say it makes more sense to say eff it.
 
For the victims, it doesn't matter if the issue is down in the noise. They're still just as robbed, just as raped, just as dead.


So, if the media didn't report on it, it wouldn't be a problem any more?

Let's formulate national policy for emotional reasons. Fun!
 
I expect a few Q-ships, plus a few heavily armed merchanters, would solve the problem handily.


....

Review your history - armed merchant ships haven't stopped pirates in the past.
 
Arm a few vessels and make them look unarmed and easy prey. Pirates attack a few of these and get blown out of the water, they will think twice about attacking any ship again. Problem solved.

20,000 ships a year crossing the hazard area, about 40 are attacked. Odds of your Q-Ship being one of them are pretty low. Plus, some of the pirates don't attack ships at random...they pay bribes, etc. to find the best targets.

BTW....perhaps it is time to bring back Letters of Marquis and turn this problem over to private pirate hunters...obviously our modern, by the law, overly lawyer'd, wussified system cannot seem to solve this problem.
A Letter Of Marque authorizes a private ship of war to act against a *nation*, not an amorphous group of individuals. A Privateer is expected to pay for its operation through capture of enemy goods and ships...I find it hard to believe a privateer Q-ship could be funded on prize money from the capture of 4-man Zodiac boats....

Ron Wanttaja
 
20,000 ships a year crossing the hazard area, about 40 are attacked. Odds of your Q-Ship being one of them are pretty low. Plus, some of the pirates don't attack ships at random...they pay bribes, etc. to find the best targets.
Some pirate attacks go unnoticed by the crew. In the Straights of Malacca pirates will often board unseen, open cargo containers and remove goods and then leave. So event hose 40 or so attacks a year and not the violent ones that we are reading about lately.
 
...

A Letter Of Marque authorizes a private ship of war to act against a *nation*, not an amorphous group of individuals. A Privateer is expected to pay for its operation through capture of enemy goods and ships...I find it hard to believe a privateer Q-ship could be funded on prize money from the capture of 4-man Zodiac boats....

Ron Wanttaja

Those were my thoughts, as well. I'm sure Henning will know better than me, but my memory is also telling me that there have been weird developments in American prize law in the past that don't really give an incentive for taking prizes, even if they were to be had. I might be competely wrong on that, but there's a bell ringing faintly in that regard.
 
While piracy may never be eliminated, i cannothelp but believe that sinking the 'motherships' that the smaller boats use would go a long way toward lowering the threat . DaveR
 
While piracy may never be eliminated, i cannothelp but believe that sinking the 'motherships' that the smaller boats use would go a long way toward lowering the threat . DaveR
If those motherships are in some nations territorial waters then an act of war will have just been committed. It is a very complex issue that requires complex solutions. Just look back tot he 80's to see what we had to do in the relatively small waters of the Straits of Hormuz and the Persian Gulf to protect oil ships. The cost of that was enormous and was only undertaken because of the serious threat to our national survival had we had oil supplies cut off.
 
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While piracy may never be eliminated, i cannothelp but believe that sinking the 'motherships' that the smaller boats use would go a long way toward lowering the threat . DaveR

So how does one identify the "mothership" when it looks just like any other fishing boat?

If they are caught in the act then, sure, weapons free, but otherwise it's a tough problem.
 
Oh that shark was jumped back on page 1.

Regardless of the content on page 1 of this thread, sometimes things are just a hair to far. I think that the Left/Right/etc connotations are just that far. So, I'm asking (as a member of the community and a frequent SZ contributor), let's watch the stuff in HT.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
BTW....perhaps it is time to bring back Letters of Marquis and turn this problem over to private pirate hunters...obviously our modern, by the law, overly lawyer'd, wussified system cannot seem to solve this problem.

Is the name you are searching for "Blackwater"?

-Skip
 
Regardless of the content on page 1 of this thread, sometimes things are just a hair to far. I think that the Left/Right/etc connotations are just that far. So, I'm asking (as a member of the community and a frequent SZ contributor), let's watch the stuff in HT.

Cheers,

-Andrew
The problem is that there are non SZ people who like to discuss political issues outside of the SZ. Other than that I agree with you. When I see problems peeking up in HT with politics it comes from those that usually are not SZ participants and are almost always people who proclaim that they are here on PoA to NOT discuss politics.

But like I said this thread jumped the shark a long time ago when it started talking about international affairs and the role of US military might in those affairs. The topic is devoid of any aviation or aviation political content and should have been moved or locked a long time ago. That it has continued to thrive with its political focus goes to show that people here really do want to speak about politics.
 
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