piper saratoga followup (X-posted on Red)

[grattonja]

I decided to start a new thread to get some opinions in followup. I flew the plane on Sunday. It's an 81 or 82, I forget which. Club seating (don't know if that was standard or not on this model so I throw it in). 3 blade prop, fairly recent engine and prop overhaul so lots of TBO left. Brand new, and really nice, paint job. 1000 pounds of passengers, pilots and baggage with fuel to the tabs! Wow! G430 as primary nav/com/gps with digital backup. Strikefinder is the only weather finding gear. The plane flew tight and handled well, and felt like something I could very much get used to. Thanks to all who contributed suggestions/information about the type, you all were right on the money, and very helpful!

Here's the deal on the club: $10000 buy in, most of which is refundable when I leave the club. $75 per month towards hangar and insurance, and $125 per hour wet, hobbes to fly. No limit on number of hours to fly. Computer scheduling, first come first served and the guy we met with said he can't ever remember a scheduling conflict. The club is presently limited to 12 members, and I will meet some more of them shortly. On-line scheduling. The plane is, of course, hangared (at LNS). It looks like I will have to burn off somewhere between 10 and 20 hours of time with one of the CFIs from the group (there are several CFIIs) to be insured (the principal seems to think it will be closer to 10 than 20, but we do whatever insurance dictates of course).

Feelings/opinions from owners/club members on the "deal"? Anyone in a club that sounds better/worse? Is it reasonable? We will use this as primary transportation aloft if we join, and we will both be working on commercial/CFI in this plane as well. (perhaps a bit of overkill there but need to make our money work for us if we do this deal).

Jim G

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Jim -

My only comment is that 12 seems like a pretty large number of pilots competing for one a/c. I'd advise as you meet members, to try to get a sense that scheduling is or is not an issue.

Even with only 5 of us into our R22, we have conflicts at times. I expect that it's even going to be more of an issue with 4 of us in the new R44.

YMMV!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Jim -

My only comment is that 12 seems like a pretty large number of pilots competing for one a/c. I'd advise as you meet members, to try to get a sense that scheduling is or is not an issue.

Even with only 5 of us into our R22, we have conflicts at times. I expect that it's even going to be more of an issue with 4 of us in the new R44.

YMMV!

The beauty is that if they are using Internet scheduling, they should be able to give you a read-only guest login, so you can look back historically and see what usage has been, how often the plane has been double-booked (if their system allows standby bookings, that is), if the plane tends to be booked for trips during times you tend to take vacations, or booked when you like to fly (evenings, weekends, early morning, whatever your schedule is). You can also look into the FUTURE and see how far out things are booked right now. Are there lots of holes in the schedule going forward, or do you have to book 3 months out to get the times you want to have?

Also, how many of the 12 slots are currently filled (not counting you)?

Considering the Cherokee Six / Lance / Saratoga burns 14-15 gph in cruise at its optimal 8000-9000' cruise altitude, and fuel rates being $4+ per hour, the rate doesn't sound bad at all, especially for a well-equipped six-seater and your insurance covered.

I was in a club that had a Cherokee Six (www.six4asix.com), and our monthly rate was $325 (before flying). It's gone up since then, as they moved to a big airport and have the FBO there handle pulling the airplanes out of a shared hangar. I think their monthly is pushing $400 now.

It's a great airplane... if you can spare the $10K right now and it's what you want to fly, go for it. It's a very mission-capable, stable, friendly airplane.

 

[Ken Ibold]

This sounds like a reasonable deal, but take Troy's suggestion to look at historical use. A lot of clubs wind up with half their members sending in their checks but rarely using the airplane. THOSE are great members to have!!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

This sounds like a reasonable deal, but take Troy's suggestion to look at historical use. A lot of clubs wind up with half their members sending in their checks but rarely using the airplane. THOSE are great members to have!!

That was the exact experience I had in our club. Only 1/3 of the people really flew all that much. The rest spent some time with an instructor the month before a big trip and would take the plane for a week on some trip. Go figure. An expensive way to do it!

 

[grattonja]

I believe 10 slots are currently filled and 2 are open. I will have them pull up the schedule book after their meeting tonight and I'll have a look at usage. Over on red board they suggested that I also ask some pointed questions about the kitty for engine replace/repair and how that has worked historically as well. I'm familiar with the on line scheduling they use (same one as my flight school) so I should be able to get a good sense right away of how it looks.

I have been told that each person is flying the plane about 20-30 hours per year, mostly for vacations. So the usage is purportedly not too heavy.

Jim G

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Over on red board they suggested that I also ask some pointed questions about the kitty for engine replace/repair and how that has worked historically as well.

Good point... if something big or expensive broke, that wasn't covered by our very-well-funded prop/engine/avionics fund, our club would have to do an assessment. That didn't happen often, but when you're already spending several hundred per month on dues, it hurt when it did!

Find out from them how unexpected expenditures are handled. If assessments, I'd find out two things: history of assessments for the last 2-3 years, and, any planned or known upcoming assessments or major items needing to be addressed.

 

[grattonja]

Good point... if something big or expensive broke, that wasn't covered by our very-well-funded prop/engine/avionics fund, our club would have to do an assessment. That didn't happen often, but when you're already spending several hundred per month on dues, it hurt when it did!

Find out from them how unexpected expenditures are handled. If assessments, I'd find out two things: history of assessments for the last 2-3 years, and, any planned or known upcoming assessments or major items needing to be addressed.

Noted. I have some notes for followup questions. Thanks again for all the help.

Jim G

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I was in a club that had a Cherokee Six (www.six4asix.com), and our monthly rate was $325 (before flying). It's gone up since then, as they moved to a big airport and have the FBO there handle pulling the airplanes out of a shared hangar. I think their monthly is pushing $400 now.

Troy,

How many were in the club? I always thought that looked like a great club to be in, if I ever moved to that area. I saw that the insurance company gave 'em the shaft and forced them to sell the Mooneys, though.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Troy,

How many were in the club? I always thought that looked like a great club to be in, if I ever moved to that area. I saw that the insurance company gave 'em the shaft and forced them to sell the Mooneys, though.

We were chartered for up to 36 members (12 per plane) but were never over 16 to 18 active paying members. If we'd had the full compliment of members, our monthly dues would have been less than they were, of course.

It was a good club, still is. I read on AOPA that EVERY CLUB got hosed on the Mooney line, though... no insurer will underwrite clubs for Mooney aircraft at this time. Not sure why. It's a type-specific exclusion.

The club replaced the Mooneys with a Cessna 177RG, they are now keeping the membership small on purpose, and everyone seems happy.

If my financial situation ever appreciably improves, I would consider rejoining. I was on their BOD at one time and still take care of the website.

 

[AdamZ]

Jim first the number does seem high but checking the schedual history may aleivate any concerns. Second is the club membership for just you or you and your wife. In other words would your wife have to buy a seperate membership to fly the plane?

 

[infotango]

Why is a club charging hobbs time?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I read on AOPA that EVERY CLUB got hosed on the Mooney line, though... no insurer will underwrite clubs for Mooney aircraft at this time. Not sure why. It's a type-specific exclusion.

Who was their insurance through? I know that Avemco dropped Mooney club coverage last year for anything more than, uh, I think it was 7 members but might have been 5. Bummer.