Piper Mirage in’s and outs

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Joey Surles, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Joey Surles

    Joey Surles Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JetSetter Aviation
    I manage an airplane for a company and we are highly considering upgrading to a Piper Mirage with G1000. I would like to know what are the true pros and cons of this airplane.

    As a little background I fly a CJ4 full time. Have flown Barons and PC-12 in pAST I have a good idea of airplanes but want to know what to look for and what are the downsides and pros to this airplane.
     
  2. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Location:
    Ogden Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rockymountain
    Pros: Very capable for a piston and very comfortable for passengers. Feels like a TBM or Meridian for pax, as long as they don't look at the ASI or VSI. No bad habits. A good stick and rudder plane. Very quiet, such that pax don't need headsets in the back, but may want them. Great range, decent high hot and short field performance, but you need to follow the POH and understand the nuances of short field techniques and such. Great glider, which takes some of the stress of single engine ops out of the equation. From FL250 the glide range is 60-70 nm depending on ISA. Loves to fly high. Decent in ice, but wouldn't dally in it. Would use the FIKI to get up or down through icing and around.

    Cons: The nose steering is sensitive to under-inflated tires and rollers that are out of spec. Would run the tires +5% -0% of rated tire pressure. That is very important. Very complex plane, so maintenance is going to be commensurate with what it is, a 1.4 mil plane. Truly needs type specific training from a dedicated PA46 instructor. The average CFII on the field is not the route you want to go. These planes are truly powerful, capable and complex. To get the most out of them, you need someone that really knows the airplane. A little bumpy in turbulence due to that big wing and lighter wing loading ?24 lb/sq ft. Need a good pre-buy from a PA46 specific shop to ensure there has not been undue deferred maintenance.

    I don't know. Was certainly my favorite piston aircraft that I have flown. Very capable, good range and speed. Very comfortable with the pressurized cabin.
     
    Joey Surles likes this.
  3. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,923
    Location:
    Garner NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KTD
    www.mmopa.com is the place to gain serious insight.

    Membership is $250.00 per year but the cost will be saved many fold.

    Kevin Mead is a great guy from MMOPA to talk to about many of the questions you have....
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  4. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    I read and hear this from time to time about various different aircraft. What is a PA46 instructor going to show you that an inexperienced but good instructor won’t in this case? I’m genuinely curious about this, as I am scheduled for initial training in a PA46 next week.

    Not that it likely matters anyway, since the PA46 has earned a reputation with the insurance underwriters and will likely require initial and recurrent training from an approved provider.
     
  5. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11,475
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    the pa46 line are powerful and complex airplanes. would u rather get training from someone "figuring it out on the fly" or someone who knows the ins and outs of the plane?
     
  6. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,026
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    Sure any decent cfi could teach you to fly it, but an airplane like this needs someone to teach you to care for it as well. I agree that an instructor for a specific kind of airplane is usually overkill but in this case I would want one with a decent amount of time in one. They have pressurization nuances, power settings that may help the engine live longer, inside tips on what could be wrong if "such n such" occurs. So not really teaching you stick and rudder skills but more systems and aircraft care training.

    Edit: for example, I have a couple hours in an older model Malibu. I have no doubt I could go get in it and fly it anywhere I want safely and competently with nothing more than basic instruction. buuuuttttt, if I was in cruise flight and blew a turbo hose I may not know what to do, or get 2 green instead of 3 on approach, the pressurization isn't dumping fast enough or the valve has stuck, things like that is when it helps to have someone with some knowledge of the aircraft.
     
    Joey Surles and Mtns2Skies like this.
  7. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    They’re not that powerful...

    Not sure whether you’re serious or not, but I’m not talking about seeking out dual from some kid racing to get 1500 hours here. I’m talking about receiving dual from an accomplished pilot and flight instructor who may just not have tons of experience with that airframe. I’ve reviewed the course curriculum as well as flight manuals and don’t see anything magic in it.
     
  8. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11,475
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    hire whoever you want, I don't give a cr@p. it's just my $.02

    I'd agree with you with the standard GA piston planes (piper, Cessna, mooney, and the almighty Bo) but above that I'd want type experience. personally. u can do whatever the F u want.
     
  9. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    I agree that systems knowledge is important. But getting that knowledge solely from a CFI is something I don’t agree with. Most of what you’re talking about can (and should be) gleaned from other sources, on your own, and reinforced by an instructor.

    This isn’t my first rodeo with pressurized airplanes and I’ve maintained a Malibu in the past. I don’t feel it’s rocket science but perhaps I’m the odd man out here.
     
  10. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Location:
    Ogden Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rockymountain
    Very complex aircraft, with complex systems. Knowing how to recognize failures of the systems and what to do about them when they fail is very important. A lot of this stuff is not covered well in the POH. These planes are docile and extremely forgiving, but have corners where they will predictably bite. Would a highly experienced, non-PA46 pilot know where the unmarked drain holes are for the rudder cables and what can happen if they are blocked? Know the credit card test (not in the POH) to ensure the steering rollers are adjusted correctly? Know the accident history of the aircraft such that every conceivable scenario that has resulted in a mishap or death is in their database while training you? There are numerous PA46 instructors with over 10,000 hrs in PA46's. There has never been a training fatality in the PA46. For an airplane that every single aircraft requires at least yearly training, that is an astonishing record. The known PA46 specific instructors are very good. Don't skimp on the training with these birds. If for no other reason, you are leaving a lot of tribal knowledge on the table going to a non-specific instructor.

    I have studies the PA46 accident record extensively. It reads like a cheap novel of almost exclusively preventable accidents. Probably not that different from a lot of airframes, but so sad that poorly trained and poorly qualified pilots have given such an incredible airframe an average accident record. With the capability and redundancy of this aircraft, accidents should be way fewer than average.
     
    Pilawt likes this.
  11. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    1,744
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    I have never flown the PA-46 personally. The only thing I have heard about them is you have to plan and manage your descents carefully. The maneuvering speed is a little low, so if you are expecting to get some bumps on the way down you have to get it slowed. Plus you can't just yank back on the power to make it descend or else you will shock cool the engine and lose pressurization (common on turbo charged pressurized aircraft). Just what I've been told, maybe an old wives' tale.
     
  12. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,923
    Location:
    Garner NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KTD
    Depends on who you do your initial training with...Legacy or some other PA46 centric school will show you idiosyncrasies galore of the airframe. Not being a smart axx but post back here afterr you get back...

    Likely is the wrong word...it is required...period....unless you fly a Matrix...it is the unpressurized version of the PA46 line and recurrent training is not required...
     
  13. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Thank you, that’s what I was looking for.
     
  14. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,923
    Location:
    Garner NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KTD
    Its not...the initial training is more about systems knowledge than flying...it's a plane...you push and it goes down...you pull and it climbs...:D:D

    If you are headed into do your initial training, you might consider joining MMOPA...it truly is a great resource...
     
    Pilawt likes this.
  15. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    That’s kind of what I figured. I have no doubt the training will be good and very educational. I probably oversimplify things a bit and can’t see the flying being too hard, although I’m sure I’ll learn some new operation techniques specific to the airframe too. Systems knowledge is important to me and I’m glad to hear that is a primary focus in the initial training.

    My plan is to join MMOPA. I’m honestly more concerned about properly maintaining the airplane than I am flying it.
     
  16. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Location:
    Ogden Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rockymountain
    Tons of knowledgeable A&Ps on MMOPA. Also a maintenance hotline free to members. Tony, Kevin, Chad and Todd are household names on MMOPA that you will learn. You won't just get your money back joining MMOPA, you will make money. There is so much experience there.
     
    Kelvin likes this.
  17. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,026
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    My friend with the Malibu has cashed inn on that maintenance hotline alone. Has been invaluable when stuck out at a remote airport after hours.
     
  18. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    12,163
    Location:
    high desert NM
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    Sounds like an interesting personal plane.
     
  19. Arbiter419

    Arbiter419 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Central Pennsylvania
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CAucker
    Rockymountain nailed it all. Down low (less than 10k) it's a 175 knot airplane. At FL200 it's a 200 knot airplane, fuel burn remains the same. 30" and 2400 RPM will give you those speeds on ~22 gph leaned to 120 ROP. It'll land a lot shorter than it'll take off in, especially loaded in the summertime. Piper publishes pretty good performance charts for the airplane. You'll definitely be trading fuel for people, but with 120 gallons to work with (140 with the "extended tank" STC) you have a fair bit to play with. 100 lbs of unpressurized baggage in nose, and 100 lbs behind the rear seats in the cabin, they work well to put the CoG where you want it. Feel free to PM me any operational questions, I work for a dealer and fly various PA46s a few times per week.
     
  20. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    7,534
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    There's no "magic" in any airplane. They are all subject to the same laws of physics, mechanics and thermodynamics.
    I'm sure one can master any of them with a little book learnin' and any accomplished pilot with no time in type. :rolleyes:
     
  21. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    That was my point. Airplanes fly like airplanes, you just have to learn the quirks of dancing with a new partner. The bigger deal is systems, and having worked on Malibus I don't see anything that stands out as noteworthy or particularly peculiar. In fact, I'd venture to say that the systems and construction of an Aztec are more complex than that of a Malibu. Especially when average age and time are factored in.
     
  22. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    1,744
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    I disagree. Now yes physics is physics and most aircraft fly basically the same, but any type of aircraft can have its quirks if you would. Those quirks could be minor, or there could be something more serious that could be a major safety/maintenance item. Having an instructor well versed in those quirks for the model is well worth the time.

    As was asked during my CFI checkride, I have my tailwheel, high performance, and complex endorsements. Does that mean I am suited to give dual instruction in a P-51? Am I even capable of flying a P-51 and not bending it?
     
  23. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11,475
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    hence the 'sarcasm' smiley after his post...…..
     
    GRG55 likes this.
  24. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    1,744
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    Guess I missed the memo. I stand by my post, just no longer disagree with GRG55. :biggrin:
     
    eman1200 likes this.
  25. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Conservatism is never a bad thing and I agree that seeking out someone well versed in the plane is worthwhile. In the case of the Malibu, the discussion of anything less is wasted anyway since insurance providers require initial and recurrent training from specific training providers.

    What I find the most interesting about the way this thread has went is that everyone seems convinced that someone without training from one of the master PA46 training centers is going to kill themselves yet in an older thread at least one of the posters here advocated a self checkout in an unfamiliar airframe by a low time private pilot. Gotta love POA.
     
  26. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11,475
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    Not a single person in this thread said anything other than suggesting a knowledgeable instructor. No one said death is imminent if you don’t. You are the only one who said you absolutely don’t need it and now you are 100% contradicting that. Also you clearly failed to mention that you already had experience in pa46’s, in which case my reply to you would have been totally different. Maybe you should learn how to use the internet.
     
  27. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    15,758
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jesse
    PA46 airframe is complex enough that itd be pretty silly to use an instructor that doesn’t know **** about them.

    For example, if you suddenly lose pressurization, you may want to try pulling the gear warning circuit breaker. If the squat switch ****s up, and the airplane thinks it’s on the ground, it will dump the cabin pressure. Gear warning circuit breaker bypasses that.

    One example of many examples I could list that the average instructor wouldn’t know.

    I was a very active flight instructor in a lot of different airframes. When it came time to fly a PA-46, I went to a good PA-46 instructor and definitely learned some things. I didn’t even realize the damn airplane had an emergency escape door until the instructor showed me.
     
    GRG55 likes this.
  28. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    I apparently struck a nerve with you, for some reason which I don't know.

    Never did I intend to imply that training was not necessary, my original question was what was different between the official insurance approved PA46 training courses for a Malibu vs. what you could get from an experienced instructor who might not have as much time in that specific airframe. Those knowledgeable on the subject gave me what I was looking for. The rest gave a typical POA answer.