Piper Lance First Year Operating Costs

ahkahn

ahkahn

Line Up and Wait
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92E
Hi everyone,

Happy New Year! I have praised the forums in the past for the (sometimes good/sometimes bad) knowledge and information I've gotten from them. Now is my opportunity to give back. Hopefully some of you future airplane owners (and current ones looking to step into a 6 seater) will find this information useful.

My plane officially went online 1/1/2015. I bought it from an individual who flew the plane 200-300 hours per year, spared no expense in the plane, and really cared for it. Unfortunately his mechanic was not the most upstanding individual and, in my opinion, took the old owner for a lot of maintenance that was never performed. Yes, I saw invoices, and no, it had clearly not been done. There are other threads around where I have discussed this. Long story short, this had resulted in a pretty stiff annual/pre-buy last year that lasted 8 weeks and cost nearly $18,000 for belly corrosion remediation. I picked up $2000 of the cost to cover the "annual" and the prior owner covered the rest. The $2000 is figured into my numbers.

Flight Stats:
PA-32R 1976 Piper Lance (6 seater, forward facing)
LoPresti Howl Cowl and all other LoPresti speed mods available to the Lance (adds around 10-12 knots).
Cruise Settings: 160-165 TAS @ 15.5 GPH (Peak) (2400 RPM/75% power)
I have an EDM-800 and Aspen, so those settings are very accurate.
Total Hours flown 2015: 230 hours

Direct/Indirect Operating Costs:
Maintenance (including last year annual): $4159 $18.08/hour
Fuel: $14,724.78 $64.02/hour ($4.13/gal average $)
Insurance: $2169 - First year is always highest, plus my wife was added on as a new PPL in August.
Other Expenses (mostly one-time: blankets, headsets, flashlights, wash/wax, other small stuff): $1877.33
Hangar (mine is in a community heated hangar): $4200 ($350/mo)

Total Annual Operating Expenses: : $27,531.07 ($119.70/hour)

Special points to think about:
I did not include an avionics upgrade into these figures. I had to swap out my Aspen for $2000, and upgraded my audio panel to a PMA-450 and upgraded my GTX-330 to ES for $6000. So I elected to do around $8000 in avionics mods.

For the newbies out there just starting to think about buying a plane, keep in mind they will only pay off if you fly them. Fly them often. If you let them sit, you're better off renting. At $4200/year for hangar (in my case), flying your plane 50 hours/year would cost around $84/hour just for hangaring! I figured the breakeven point for my plane was around 130 hours/year vs. renting. But, your mileage will vary with local rates.

I'm in for annual right now, so not sure how that will fare out for this year.

Happy to help if anyone has any questions!
 
What were any other maintenance costs?
Oil changes and oil consumption?
 
gps subscriptions? xm? and what about, um, PICS!!
 
JoseCuervo said:
What were any other maintenance costs?
Oil changes and oil consumption?
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Yes. I religiously change the oil every 50 hours. Each oil change (including a recurring AD inspection) runs around $350. My oil changes run a little higher than normal because of the LoPresti Howl Cowl. It is a very labor-intensive cowl to get on and off. My plane averages about 8-10 hours/quart.

I also had 3 flat tires. Yes, all 3 inner tubes over the last year got a small hole in them at different times.

I replaced all 12 spark plugs because I had one foul up. Yes, I'm big on mx. I couldn't see in the logs the last time they had been replaced, so I just did them all. It ran much better.

All of those expenses were factored into the above numbers. The plugs themselves may be in the "other expenses" line because I bought them off of Spruce, while the labor itself is in the maintenance column.
 
eman1200 said:
gps subscriptions? xm? and what about, um, PICS!!
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Yep, the $450 (or whatever it is) Jeppesen subscription is included in the "other expenses" column. I don't have XM. ForeFlight Pro would also be included in the "other expenses" column.

Ha! Forgot about pics... Here's a link to a shared album.

https://goo.gl/photos/aiaxYrXe4nuDsttK6
 

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Awesome write up. How many hours are on the plane/engine/prop total and SMOH?
 
Thanks for writing this. I've been thinking of buying, and this was very helpful. I often think about it as a comparison - rent vs. buy. I know there are a lot of non-financial trade-offs to consider in both camps (cleanliness of plane, always available, etc.), but if you're comfortable sharing, what was the cost of the airplane itself? I'd imagine ~$100K based on market rate. If you financed that for 10 years at 5%, then maybe that's another ~$12K-~$13K of annual expense (depending on rate, down payment, etc.). If your operating expense (above) was ~$28K and plane was ~$12K - then that's ~$40K for 230 hours flown. That about right?
 
It cost you $6,000 to upgrade a 330 to ES??
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Nice summary. I have you beat at probably 300/hr LOL.
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Lol... If you ever fly down to 1C5 (my home drome) let me know and we can grab a bite to eat at Charlie's. I've been up to KMSN several times... Enjoy The Jet Room...

farmerbrake said:
Awesome write up. How many hours are on the plane/engine/prop total and SMOH?
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I've got around 5200 hours TTAF and around 700 hrs SMOH/Prop.

nj-pilot said:
Thanks for writing this. I've been thinking of buying, and this was very helpful. I often think about it as a comparison - rent vs. buy. I know there are a lot of non-financial trade-offs to consider in both camps (cleanliness of plane, always available, etc.), but if you're comfortable sharing, what was the cost of the airplane itself? I'd imagine ~$100K based on market rate. If you financed that for 10 years at 5%, then maybe that's another ~$12K-~$13K of annual expense (depending on rate, down payment, etc.). If your operating expense (above) was ~$28K and plane was ~$12K - then that's ~$40K for 230 hours flown. That about right?
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Don't want to get into personal specifics, and especially don't want to spark the entire cash vs. finance debate, but you're pretty well on point with your estimates. -BUT- ~$110k is pretty accurate for market value for my plane. I've got a 430W, Aspen, and at point-of-purchase had 500 hours on the engine/prop. If financing, a payment between $600-$1000/month is a fair guess depending on financing terms. You can take planes anywhere from 10-20 years with financing. I did finance mine, and I used Dorr Aviation Credit. They were good. Here is a loan calc for those thinking about that route:
http://www.dorraviation.com/AircraftLoanCalculator.aspx
 
Financing VS. cash, it's all money out your pocket in the end, but I don't see the airplane payment whether a lump cash sum or a payment - as something that should be included in cost of ownership.

And it's certainly not a good idea to do it if the wife/gf is around... I think I'd be well over $1000/hr:)

Andrew, if I get that way I will let you know. Likewise if you're up here and want to grab lunch, let me know. I enjoy the Jet Room as well:)
 
eman1200 said:
the lance is a beast......great plane.
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Thanks! I love it. It's like the Chevy Suburban of airplanes.

fiveoboy01 said:
Financing VS. cash, it's all money out your pocket in the end, but I don't see the airplane payment whether a lump cash sum or a payment - as something that should be included in cost of ownership.

And it's certainly not a good idea to do it if the wife/gf is around... I think I'd be well over $1000/hr

Andrew, if I get that way I will let you know. Likewise if you're up here and want to grab lunch, let me know. I enjoy the Jet Room as well
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Totally agree and sounds good!
 
Helpful write-up. I hope to see you at some POA event in the Chicago area.
 
Thank you sir for the information. Very helpful.
 
Good write-up. All in all, your numbers demonstrate that operating a PA-32R can be done just as "cheap to keep" as my PA-28R. I am a little surprised your mx cost is that low, I attribute that to the fact you're choosing to close out the year without including the first annual you bear out as a sole owner, as the first one got subsidized by the purchase transaction. Granted, my AP kills me on labor (1.6 AMU flat fee inspection before anything gets fixed, for an arrow. Yeah, steep).

Indexed for your fuel price average, my PA-28R is a $37.17/hr bird versus your 64.02/hr. The other difference deals with insurance. Indexed for 100/hrs, that's a 4AMU difference before hangar and upgrades. Though that difference can serve to dial down the obscenity of hangar cost in metro areas, in the aggregate it's rounding off error. That's highly complimentary to your Lance. Congrats.

Where I part company with the gallery is on the idea that purchase price is immaterial. Comparisons such as these are proof positive to me of the contrary. I can afford to feed, repair and insure airplanes I cannot afford to purchase, (part 23 piston twins excepted from that statement of course). That is not an insignificant difference to me. That is every bit of the only difference to me.
 
Andrew -- what altitude do you typically cruise at and do you have a turbo? Our NA lance (same year) has all the speed mods as well except the cowl. We cruise at about 155 TAS at 8500' (2400 rpm, WOT) and somewhere less than 15 gph but probably closer to 65% hp.

Sam
 
hindsight2020 said:
Good write-up. All in all, your numbers demonstrate that operating a PA-32R can be done just as "cheap to keep" as my PA-28R. I am a little surprised your mx cost is that low, I attribute that to the fact you're choosing to close out the year without including the first annual you bear out as a sole owner, as the first one got subsidized by the purchase transaction. Granted, my AP kills me on labor (1.6 AMU flat fee inspection before anything gets fixed, for an arrow. Yeah, steep).

Indexed for your fuel price average, my PA-28R is a $37.17/hr bird versus your 64.02/hr. The other difference deals with insurance. Indexed for 100/hrs, that's a 4AMU difference before hangar and upgrades. Though that difference can serve to dial down the obscenity of hangar cost in metro areas, in the aggregate it's rounding off error. That's highly complimentary to your Lance. Congrats.

Where I part company with the gallery is on the idea that purchase price is immaterial. Comparisons such as these are proof positive to me of the contrary. I can afford to feed, repair and insure airplanes I cannot afford to purchase, (part 23 piston twins excepted from that statement of course). That is not an insignificant difference to me. That is every bit of the only difference to me.
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Yep, agree on the annual. I'm budgeting around $3000 for this year, so maybe an extra $1000 off of last year. Keep in mind that a PA-32R is going to really be similar maintenance-wise to a PA-28R. Really no different except for a little longer and a little wider. Most of the parts are the same, in fact. The engine is different, but nothing really significantly different. I would expect the maintenance to generally be slightly higher, not really significantly higher. Where it steps up is when you get into the twins or, like the guy I bought my plane from, stepped into a Malibu (pressurized, etc).

As far as hangaring goes, you can always go cheaper or more expensive depending on your budget. In the Chicagoland area, a T-hangar or community hangar goes in the $300-$450/month range. A tie-down goes for $75/month. I opted for the community hangar because it's heated and because I make a phone call and they pull it out.

As far as "purchase price being immaterial", I wasn't agreeing to that, but where I was commenting on that point was that the monthly loan payment is not necessarily an operating cost because everybody's situation will be unique. Not a fair comparison when it comes to mine vs. yours. An individual can figure that part out on their own, and then operating costs go from there.

Sam D said:
Andrew -- what altitude do you typically cruise at and do you have a turbo? Our NA lance (same year) has all the speed mods as well except the cowl. We cruise at about 155 TAS at 8500' (2400 rpm, WOT) and somewhere less than 15 gph but probably closer to 65% hp.

Sam
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Mine is an NA plane. No turbo. 15.5GPH is what I plan for... if I'm higher it's slightly lower. I don't pay much attention to my MAP because I use my EDM-800 to shoot for power percentage... so I'm always at 75%@2400RPM unless I'm too high, where I just go WOT. Pretty sure 8000' or so rings in around 70%. I don't think you're at 65% until you're up around 9000'-9500' range.

I try to stick between 6000'-8000'. The best altitude cruise I've seen is 169 TAS. That must have been the perfect sweet spot. I saw from other pics that day that I was running at 2400/23". But I routinely see around 163-165. I get flustered if I see below 160.... which if I'm too low (below 4000') or too high (above 9500') I'll do. I get excited if I see above 165... that's a happy day.

I attached a pic... because we always take pics of our best aircraft performance :lol:

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A little left rudder and you might have gone even faster! ;)

Thanks for the info. If I remember, I'll take some pics at similar altitudes on my next flight (also have an aspen) and the engine monitor.
 
Sam D said:
A little left rudder and you might have gone even faster! ;)

Thanks for the info. If I remember, I'll take some pics at similar altitudes on my next flight (also have an aspen) and the engine monitor.
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Hahaha... I was wondering if anyone would notice that! Yeah, my plane is not rigged correctly. In fact, that's on my squawk list for the current annual. Basically I've got full left rudder trim in (till it stops turning!) and I typically have to rest my foot on the left rudder to center the ball. I am hoping that you're right and once the rigging issues are all worked out that it does go even faster.
 
Planes aren't perfectly rigged. The ball out that small amount isnt going to affect much, although thats not what most instructors preach. If you dont believe me, try it. Doubtful you will be able to see any measurable difference in airspeed. My plane flies "wing low". Just a bit. Raise the wing with aileron and it turns. Raise it with rudder and the ball is not centered. No way to get rid of it that anyone knows. We tried everything. Its an effect of the prop I think. Pretty common. Most planes are a bit imperfect in rig.

Also the amount of rudder trim you need varies with speed and load.
 
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Curious, you said that the old mechanic got paid for work that wasn't done to the aircraft.

Did the previous owner file claim or pursue action?
 
SmashTime said:
Curious, you said that the old mechanic got paid for work that wasn't done to the aircraft.

Did the previous owner file claim or pursue action?
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Yep, he sure did get paid for work that was never accomplished. There was an annual and AD's signed off on 20 hours (and 6 months) prior to my purchase with work that had clearly not been done.

After meeting with my mechanic (who has a stellar reputation), within about 10 minutes he had the camera out taking pictures. he authorized all of the work to be completed without any further question. He figured that even if I didn't buy the plane, or if the work got too extensive, he would just keep the plane. I think he was pretty surprised at my mechanic's findings.

The prior owner's wife wanted to go after the mechanic legally. She was furious. But... the former owner was in a very tight spot. Seems the mechanic and him had been friends since the early 1970's (before he even met the wife, I believe). The guy was his CFI, taught him to fly (or something like that), and they've been friends ever since. I probably would not have been so nice, but I also don't know the dynamics at play. I can say, for sure, that he was being charged and paid for a lot of work to be performed over the years that was either never accomplished or completely half-assed. I saw invoices and logs... and the seller is the type of guy that wouldn't even question work or looking to cut corners. Money was never a question. This was all squarely on the mechanic... who in my purchase process I found out had a terrible reputation. Long story short, I really don't think they ever went after him. I think he figured it was over now... why bother.

Fast forward, that mechanic (who also owned the FBO) closed his doors a month or two ago. It was bound to happen.
 
All I'm going to say is that I'm NOT going to total it up...:no: :nono::no:
 
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