Piper Jet new name - ugh

flyersfan31

flyersfan31

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Freiburgfan31
Piper Altaire??

I get the star/air reference. I still think it sounds stupid. They're better off with PiperJet if this is the best they can do.
 
Sounds like a name Maytag would use for a laundry-room product.
flyersfan31 said:
Piper Altaire??

I get the star/air reference. I still think it sounds stupid. They're better off with PiperJet if this is the best they can do.
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flyersfan31 said:
Piper Altaire??

I get the star/air reference. I still think it sounds stupid. They're better off with PiperJet if this is the best they can do.
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The folks in the market for such an airplane probably care very little for what it's called.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Piper Altaire??

I get the star/air reference. I still think it sounds stupid. They're better off with PiperJet if this is the best they can do.
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It works only if Robby the Robot is the autopilot. Otherwise it's merely the result of a megalomaniac's ego on a rampage.
 
Well, they had to respond to improving on the butt-ugliness of the original design by making the name a little uglier. ;)
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
Well, they had to respond by improving on the butt-ugliness of the original design by making the name a little uglier. ;)
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Haven't they said that they're redesigning the plane itself, too? I understand that they're no longer going to use an M-class (Matrix/Malibu/Meridian) cabin and are instead designing a new one from scratch.
 
I'm surprised that so many companies are still optimistic about the whole VLJ idea. I think that it's only a small niche market with too many players already.
 
gprellwitz said:
Haven't they said that they're redesigning the plane itself, too? I understand that they're no longer going to use an M-class (Matrix/Malibu/Meridian) cabin and are instead designing a new one from scratch.
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Yes - Which is what I meant by "improving on the butt-ugliness" in my post.

I just realized that I should have said "to," not "by," in the original to make it clearer. Fixed.
 
Yeah, I'm going to guess it's somewhere out near Malibu.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm surprised that so many companies are still optimistic about the whole VLJ idea. I think that it's only a small niche market with too many players already.
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True, but it seems to me that the VLJ market has a lot of potential. It's just that the PiperJet and competitors are way too expensive. The original idea was a plane around the $1MM mark. Isn't Piper up to $2MM now? If $1MM actually happened, I would think a lot of people would go for it.
 
sba55 said:
True, but it seems to me that the VLJ market has a lot of potential. It's just that the PiperJet and competitors are way too expensive. The original idea was a plane around the $1MM mark. Isn't Piper up to $2MM now? If $1MM actually happened, I would think a lot of people would go for it.
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A new Beech Baron is over $1MM so you're probably right that a VLJ could compete in that price range but I think Eclipse found out that it was unrealistic to sell their airplanes at that price and not expect to lose a lot of money.
 
roncachamp said:
Where was that tribe located?
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I was thinking the same thing. Since the Thunderbird comes largely from the Lakota folklore, Why not call in the Piper Lakota??


ARE YOU LISTENING PIPER?? YOU SHOULD CALL IT THE LAKOTA!!!
 
Everskyward said:
A new Beech Baron is over $1MM so you're probably right that a VLJ could compete in that price range but I think Eclipse found out that it was unrealistic to sell their airplanes at that price and not expect to lose a lot of money.
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Oh, they could have made money at $1mil...

... If they were selling the 2,000 planes a year they expected to. :rolleyes2: That's where they were REALLY unrealistic. Cool vision, but it just didn't mesh well with reality.
 
dmccormack said:
I propose the Piper Arosaguntacook
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That sounds better than "Ohlone" or "Zuni", I'll tell you that much.

Seriously though, if anything, "Altaire" betrays a serious lack of imagination. Remember Wii? The laughter from all the quarters was deafening. Now that Wii rolled all over the competion they are not laughing. However, even that was fresh, unusual. "Altaire" sounds like something that overpaid consultants of a major multinational came up with.

-- Pete
 
Zuni has already been taken by a sailplane. Although that didnt' stop Piper with the Cherokee... :)
 
zaitcev said:
Seriously though, if anything, "Altaire" betrays a serious lack of imagination. Remember Wii? The laughter from all the quarters was deafening. Now that Wii rolled all over the competion they are not laughing. However, even that was fresh, unusual. "Altaire" sounds like something that overpaid consultants of a major multinational came up with.
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Yeah... It sounds very... 50's. Old. Not like the latest greatest thing.
 
Everskyward said:
So then what do people think of the proposed Cessna single-engine turboprop?
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A lot depends on the specifics.

If it's a trainer, I expect it to be far too expensive to serve as a useful primary trainer for GA. But various two-bit air forces of banana republics are going to jump on it, all Cessna need to do is to undercut Pilatus.. say, with a 3 million dollar fly-away sticker. Dragonfly III here we come.

If it's a luxury competitor of Meridian and PC-12, then again it's going to be too expensive for most.

Is there even a small turbine in the world that would permit a "Cessna 173"? As commenters said, PT-6 family is not small enough.

-- Pete
 
Piper Passamaquoddy?


I didn't realize just how total and complete the change was. It's basically an entirely new airplane. Like, this prototype doesn't work fellas, we need to redo the whole thing!!

It'll be nice. Not cheap. Maybe they should work on making a better turboprop than the Meridian?

Whatever happened to all those VLJs darkening the nation's skies. That never quite panned out, did it???:D
 
Everskyward said:
A new Beech Baron is over $1MM so you're probably right that a VLJ could compete in that price range but I think Eclipse found out that it was unrealistic to sell their airplanes at that price and not expect to lose a lot of money.
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I just looked into Eclipse again, because if they performed as stated, they really fit my mission. I think of it as a P-Baron with jets in that the dimensions are similar, payload with full fuel and range. Of course, it's faster and goes higher. What peaked my interest was seeing several on ASO and Controller.com for $800,000.
The more I dug, the more I backed away. Unfortunately, to get one of these up to full cert with new avionics and FIKI, one will have $1,300,000 or so in it. There are some offered at that price fully upgraded, and I looked into those. Well, several other issues arose. With Sikorski's involvement now, support may improve, but it's not certain yet. So, the last thing I want is $1,300,000 in an orphan aircraft. Wayne on here pointed out how many SBs and ADs there were on the early C500 series jets. Last thing I need is a $1,300,000 aircraft that is still part of a young fleet having a new AD that is costly to repair.
When one looks at the actual aircraft, some things just look, well.....flimsy. I guess I'm used to Beech quality and this isn't it. And, as Wayne also nicely pointed out: where do the golf clubs go? That is, the only baggage storage is in the cabin. I have a nice nose compartment in the P-Baron.
So, I'm afraid a well build twin VLJ or light jet at or near $1,000,000 just isn't doable. The Mustang is closer to $3MM. The single engine jets in conception will come closer, but a commercial operator and may owner/operators will want two engines; especially when one goes high, far and fast due to all the hostile terrain and weather they might encounter.

Still a big hole in the market IMO. The King Air is about three times as much to operate as my P-Baron. It' s a very different cabin class plane with a potty. One is pushing a lot more cabin through the air with the amount of drag that accompanies that.

I was a candidate for the Eclipse, but not now. I know a fella with one in has hanger sitting unused. Just a shame.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave, you need a Silver Eagle conversion P210!
 
Well, I've also looked at the Rocket Baron and I have a P-58 that would be converted.

Of course, all of these have advantages and disadvantages and many just compare apples to oranges. The Eclipse is very comparable to my Baron in size, payload and range; so, that seemed like a natural comparison.

When one gets into King Airs, Mustangs and C500s they are completely different, larger cabin class aircraft which are much bigger and have the added drag associated with that. Older jet engines were very inefficient for a small aircraft; so they were put on larger planes to go far, go high and go fast. The economics only made sense if one put a lot of folks in them.

The allure of the Eclipse and VLJ was that the newer, smaller jet engines would make putting them on smaller planes carrying fewer people more efficient. For a 1,000 mile trip, Eclipse showed just slightly more fuel burn than my P-Baron at a much higher speed.

As we get into specialty aircraft, there's a new set of issues. For instance, on the Rocket Baron, one adds $1,000,000 to the cost of an existing frame (what ever that costs) and once again has an older bird with new engines and perhaps avionics. Issues that were there like lower cabin differential and hull cycle live are still there. There may be new aerodynamic issues and one may have to go back to the STC holder to fix a problem related to that.

A lot to consider. There's a great argument for staying mainstream for maintenance support and resale.

Best,

Dave
 
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Or at least make an offer to buy his 496!!:idea:
 
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