Piper dropping Jet???

[wabower]

You wouldn't believe some of the differences in attitude and behavior. For example, the guy in western NY would see all of the fancy dishes and linens in his G-V every time he used the whiz. He finally told the crew that there was no reason to haul them around, since they always used paper plates and napkins anyway. So the crew boxed them up and they're on a shelf in the hangar. The next owner will get some real nice nice dishes. They don't take an FA on any of their trips, since they all know how to operate the coffee-maker and put ice in their own drinks.

The crew keeps the airplane supplied with very nice paper plates, fancy paper napkins and the silver-colored plastic forks and spoons. At the end of each trip all that stuff goes in one garbage bag that they place on the ramp for the ground crew and everybody leaves the airport at the same time. No dishwashing or sending linens to the high-dollar laundry service at the airport, or any other logistic issues. We flew from Rochester to Zurich with catering from Subway.

The guy who's originally from Kuwait has a G-V that's 21 serial numbers older than the one in New York. He upgraded all the dishes and glassware to the finest crystal, with monogrammed linens rom Rome. He traveled with an entourage of at least 6 "personal assistants" (we used to call them servants) one of which is a Lebonese chef who was trained at Cordon Bleu and turns out increcible home-cooked meals from the airplane galley. Another PA was a techie, whose job was to keep all the laptops and networks up and running at the various hotels and owner's homes around the world. When we were in London, the owner personally bought all the deserts at Harod's. The long-haul trips that we flew (like Bangor to Kuwait City) were still tiring, but the food was great.

OTOH, rather than spend a few bucks running some wire and a connector, we carried a long wire and a Radio Shack speaker. When the boss was in bed (the cabin was forward couch configuration) he liked to listen to BBC, so we plugged the wire into the ADF and ran the wire down the floor to the speaker that he placed in the corner of the couch near his head.

Like I said, it seems to me like an attitude. One exceedingly wealthy person I knew who's since passed away drove a mid-scale Audi with cloth interior and the base engine. She could have easily afforded a Rolls Royce and a G-V, but chose instead to fly first class when she traveled.

I've always preferred to buy used vehicles simply because they represent a better value for me. I once purchased a new truck, and will be surprised if I do that again. I even like my piston aircraft that are older than me, and think it's pretty cool when I fly something with turbos. I guess I'm just simple folk.

 

[steingar]

Cirrus became extremely successful depending pretty much on a single frame, you can call it highly 'specialized'. Frankly I don't believe for a second in theory that in order to be viable aircraft company you must do a bit everything - some piston, some turboprop, some jets, etc. In my opinion Cirrus going after the jet market is not enhancing viability of the company - it can even be putting the company in danger. I wish them plenty of luck of course.

I just spent my entire morning teaching my Padwan learners about meiosis, the process of generating biological diversity. I thought about the fraction of human experience dedicated to it, from Romeo and Juliet to hard core pornography, we put a great deal of our total efforts into sexual reproduction, that is making offspring different from ourselves. And we don't put in that much compared to a lot of animals, which grow specialized appendages and undergo huge migrations to attract mates and reproduce. that's how important variation and diversity is to achieving long term success.

 

[Ted]

You wouldn't believe some of the differences in attitude and behavior.

I absolutely would, and do, believe the differences. Your stories sound spot on. I've seen both sides - I was raised around some of the wealthiest people in New York. Then went to High School in Brooklyn with some of the poorest people in New York.

In both income ranges, I found people who tended to think and act the same, just within whatever their means were (or sometimes, weren't).

 

[Ted]

And we don't put in that much compared to a lot of animals, which grow specialized appendages and undergo huge migrations to attract mates and reproduce. that's how important variation and diversity is to achieving long term success.

What are you looking at as "long-term"? In your profession, our lives are less than an insignificant spec on the eons that these changes happen over. Business has a slightly shorter time scale.

I do agree, though, that the current GA building methodology is flawed. Turbines will never be affordable simply due to their precision ($$$) components and high fuel burn. Piston engines need to get more affordable, but with turbine simplicity. Piper still makes a decent product. They are a bit of a one-trick pony with the Malibu these days, but their history with piston aircraft is good. Cessna, by comparison, made a good niche with jets. Their piston aircraft are a completely different division, and last I heard, were money losers.

 

[steingar]

. Their piston aircraft are a completely different division, and last I heard, were money losers.

For now, and after a pretty big acquisition of a very unfamiliar product line. Will it always be so?

 

[wabower]

Their piston aircraft are a completely different division, and last I heard, were money losers.

I think "loss leaders" is a more appropriate description. Brand loyalty is an important factor insofar as the "selling up" marketing strategy is concerned.

 

[Ted]

For now, and after a pretty big acquisition of a very unfamiliar product line. Will it always be so?

My wife and I were looking at a Controller recently, advertising a C400 for $550k with 150 TTSN on the airframe. Neither of us could understand why someone would spend that much money to end up with an airplane that is still so limited in its capabilities. For that price, you could end up with an all-the-goodies 421C, and still have a lot of money left over. But...

I think "loss leaders" is a more appropriate description. Brand loyalty is an important factor insofar as the "selling up" marketing strategy is concerned.

This description was more accurate as far as why they keep them around. That's the strategy they have as far as I understand it. The question, do people really move up to a Citation eventually from a 172 or other lesser planes? I have to wonder, I'd suspect you know better. The people I know who have the upgrade options seem to choose the aircraft that they like the best and fits their mission the best. That may or may not mean sticking with a particular brand.

 

[Skylane81E]

While I agree, I also don't understand why people spend the money that they do on new Cessna and Beechcraft piston aircraft. I think the used ones represent a much, much better value.

Yes, the big thing you'd need would be new avionics and updating the cabin. Getting rid of the Janitrol would be a big, big plus as well...

Amen on the heater. Our new to us chieftan has an exhaust heater on the left mill, our pilots have been hearing something new while flying it.

"Can you turn the heat down please"

 

[Ted]

Amen on the heater. Our new to us chieftan has an exhaust heater on the left mill, our pilots have been hearing something new while flying it.

"Can you turn the heat down please"

The 310 is similar. It's something of a sauna, and has a tendency to have an overzealous heater, even for a Janitrol. Problem is I can't turn it down past its lowest setting, so it ends up being on... off... on... off... gets annoying.

And then the heater just stops working. Then it gets very, very cold.

 

[Skylane81E]

It's a big step up from our last 31-350, we had that one stocked with blankets to keep folks warm

 

[steingar]

My wife and I were looking at a Controller recently, advertising a C400 for $550k with 150 TTSN on the airframe. Neither of us could understand why someone would spend that much money to end up with an airplane that is still so limited in its capabilities. For that price, you could end up with an all-the-goodies 421C, and still have a lot of money left over. But...

Don't confuse variety for selling 50-year old designs. Cirrus has the advantage that even though it's a one-trick pony, its pony does tricks the others can't.

 

[Skylane81E]

Zing!

 

[Ted]

Don't confuse variety for selling 50-year old designs. Cirrus has the advantage that even though it's a one-trick pony, its pony does tricks the others can't.

You're correct, although I've not found any of those tricks to be ones that I find positive characteristics.

We all know I'm in the minority, though.

 

[Everskyward]

I've found it to be true that the rich come in all different varieties just like the poor. To some people their airplane is an extension of their ego. Other people couldn't care less as long as the airplane gets them to where they want to go.

 

[wabower]

Ponies that crash, burn, kill the rider and set the tent on fire aren't big attractions at the circus in Dallas.

Don't confuse variety for selling 50-year old designs. Cirrus has the advantage that even though it's a one-trick pony, its pony does tricks the others can't.

 

[steingar]

You're correct, although I've not found any of those tricks to be ones that I find positive characteristics.

We all know I'm in the minority, though.

You are indeed. While not my own cup of tea, I can see advantages to an aircraft that seats like a car and goes nearly 200 miles an hour with the gear down. And while I may not want one, I can certainly see situations where an airframe parachute could come in handy. Cessna is selling your father's aircraft with the exception of the Corvalis.

 

[SCCutler]

Ponies that crash, burn, kill the rider and set the tent on fire aren't big attractions at the circus in Dallas.

 

[Ted]

Ponies that crash, burn, kill the rider and set the tent on fire aren't big attractions at the circus in Dallas.

And those are the tricks that it does that I don't like.

What surprises me is that some people apparently find them attractive.

 

[zaitcev]

What surprises me is that some people apparently find them attractive.

Perhaps some people know OWT when they hear it. Also, they look at the insurance requirements for retracts, and the speeds. Not to mention the BRS, which is essential for... some. That awful word again!

 

[Ted]

Perhaps some people know OWT when they hear it.

I was not aware that the NTSB reports are considered a collection of OWTs.

Also, they look at the insurance requirements for retracts, and the speeds. Not to mention the BRS, which is essential for... some. That awful word again!

I do agree that the Cirrus has some nifty tricks. It also has some very not-nifty tricks that, to my mind, outweigh the nifty tricks.

 

[flyersfan31]

The thing about stereotypes is that they make the person doing the stereotyping feel better about himself.

 

[steingar]

Ponies that crash, burn, kill the rider and set the tent on fire aren't big attractions at the circus in Dallas.

Since we all know that no airplane ever built by legacy manufacturers like Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft ever crashed and caught on fire.

And while the airframes themselves may be less than flammable, the occupants, despite wishes to the contrary, are.

 

[Ted]

Since we all know that no airplane ever built by legacy manufacturers like Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft ever crashed and caught on fire.

No doubt, any aircraft has a risk of fire. I've known two people (one directly, one indirectly) who did emergency ditching of aircraft due to an engine/wing fire. One was a Beechcraft Queen Air, one was a Cessna 320. The Cessna 320's exhaust has a number of ADs out on it due to fire issues. Thankfully, in both incidents, the people made it out alive.

The Cirrus has demonstrated a special tendency to spontaneously combust, however, especially upon impact.

And while the airframes themselves may be less than flammable, the occupants, despite wishes to the contrary, are.

Agreed. However, humans typically do not spontaneously combust. As such, they require an ignition source.

 

[wabower]

Many ponies are capable of performing similar tricks. When one particular breed of pony excels in the same trick, however, many of the pony-riders take notice.

Since we all know that no airplane ever built by legacy manufacturers like Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft ever crashed and caught on fire.

And while the airframes themselves may be less than flammable, the occupants, despite wishes to the contrary, are.