Pilots stood down after dispute in cockpit

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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I'm sure this argument was NOT about arithmetic

QANTAS has stood down two pilots who had a heated argument in the cockpit of a Boeing 747 jumbo on the tarmac at Dallas' international airport.
Just weeks after Qantas stood down a captain for returning a positive alcohol reading, it has emerged that another captain and a second officer on a 747-400 had an argument over the take-off calculations they should be punching into the passenger jet's computer system.


Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/travel/tr...-in-cockpit-20120820-24inx.html#ixzz24T2nxBlC
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Guess the Captain isn't always right. But it could be worse -- they might have been where they didn't have a door between them and the passengers...

The year is 1979, the place is the front office of a small commuter line’s Beech 99, the crew is 45 years old. By this, I do not mean that they are EACH 45 years old; I mean that TOGETHER they are 45. The 23-year-old captain has 1210 hours and the ink wet on his ATP ticket, and passed his line check yesterday. It’s his first flight on his own as a captain. The 22-year-old copilot has 510 hours and finished training last week. It’s his first flight on the line, period. Scheduling being what it is, they both through juniority got the same (worst available) bid line, and it’s the first trip of the month.

Now, no one is really sure what got it started, but on their first leg from the company’s home base at Owensboro to Frankfort (Kentucky, not Germany), at 5000 feet a few miles west of Louisville, Kentucky, the two of them got into an all-out top-of-the-lungs, finger-in-the-chest, f-word-yelling argument. Need I remind you that the cockpit crew of a Beech 99 is separated from the passengers not by a solid partition and locked door, but by a few inches and a thin curtain? The half-dozen or so passengers had ringside seats and heard every single word. The exchange ended with the captain screaming at the copilot, “Now shut the f*** up, sit on your f***ing hands, do nothing, and say nothing. I don’t want to hear another f***ing word out of your f***ing mouth until we land.” (Or maybe he said, “…until we f***ing land.” Witness reports are conflicting, and investigators are of the opinion that this point is insignificant in the overall context. However, in light of subsequent events, the use of this rather negative adverb to describe the impending landing seems ironically appropriate, and even prophetic.) I understand that both the copilot and the terrified passengers absolutely obeyed the captain’s command – the cabin was dead silent for the rest of the flight. In fact, the next sound heard was the prop tips dinging on the runway at Frankfort, followed by the screech of the belly sliding along the blacktop. Witnesses suggest the captain used the f-word one more time during the landing (see prophecy above).

In the aftermath of the gear-up landing, no one was ever able to ascertain exactly what the copilot’s thoughts were. Some folks think he just “dropped out” completely, staring out the window, totally unaware that the captain had failed to lower the gear. Others believe he noticed this omission, but was so terrified after the captain’s earlier tirade that he simply watched in fear as it happened without saying a word. And then there’s the third school of thought (towards which I tend) which believes that he saw what was happening and thought to himself, “You don’t want my help? OK, buddy…go ahead…make my day.” I have no confirmation of the report that some passengers heard giggling from the copilot’s area while the captain ordered emergency evacuation.

And the postscript. After the FAA got done with the two lads (30 day suspension for the captain, 15 for the copilot, if I remember), the company produced a novel application of CRM. They managed their crew resources by putting them both back to work…with a note posted in the scheduling office that no matter what, under no circumstances, would these two ever be allowed in the same company airplane again. There’s a lesson here somewhere, but after over 30 years I still haven’t figured it out.
 
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I wonder if the copilot ever fessed up.....
I wonder what brand of golf ball was hit on the moon, too.
I guess we will never know either. :)
 
Keith Lane said:
I wonder if the copilot ever fessed up.....
I wonder what brand of golf ball was hit on the moon, too.
I guess we will never know either. :)
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If I were that Air Kentucky copilot, I would, like George Schultz, take that knowledge to the grave.
 
Maybe the captain, and FO had just come from Bill, and Carol's? :D
 
Ron Levy said:
In the aftermath of the gear-up landing, no one was ever able to ascertain exactly what the copilot’s thoughts were. Some folks think he just “dropped out” completely, staring out the window, totally unaware that the captain had failed to lower the gear. Others believe he noticed this omission, but was so terrified after the captain’s earlier tirade that he simply watched in fear as it happened without saying a word. And then there’s the third school of thought (towards which I tend) which believes that he saw what was happening and thought to himself, “You don’t want my help? OK, buddy…go ahead…make my day.” I have no confirmation of the report that some passengers heard giggling from the copilot’s area while the captain ordered emergency evacuation.
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I have reason to believe that you're not alone in that
And the postscript. After the FAA got done with the two lads (30 day suspension for the captain, 15 for the copilot, if I remember), the company produced a novel application of CRM. They managed their crew resources by putting them both back to work…with a note posted in the scheduling office that no matter what, under no circumstances, would these two ever be allowed in the same company airplane again. There’s a lesson here somewhere, but after over 30 years I still haven’t figured it out.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Maybe????




teamwork.jpg
 
Ron Levy said:
Guess the Captain isn't always right. But it could be worse -- they might have been where they didn't have a door between them and the passengers...

The year is 1979, the place is the front office of a small commuter line’s Beech 99, the crew is 45 years old. By this, I do not mean that they are EACH 45 years old; I mean that TOGETHER they are 45. The 23-year-old captain has 1210 hours and the ink wet on his ATP ticket, and passed his line check yesterday. It’s his first flight on his own as a captain. The 22-year-old copilot has 510 hours and finished training last week. It’s his first flight on the line, period. Scheduling being what it is, they both through juniority got the same (worst available) bid line, and it’s the first trip of the month.

Now, no one is really sure what got it started, but on their first leg from the company’s home base at Owensboro to Frankfort (Kentucky, not Germany), at 5000 feet a few miles west of Louisville, Kentucky, the two of them got into an all-out top-of-the-lungs, finger-in-the-chest, f-word-yelling argument. Need I remind you that the cockpit crew of a Beech 99 is separated from the passengers not by a solid partition and locked door, but by a few inches and a thin curtain? The half-dozen or so passengers had ringside seats and heard every single word. The exchange ended with the captain screaming at the copilot, “Now shut the f*** up, sit on your f***ing hands, do nothing, and say nothing. I don’t want to hear another f***ing word out of your f***ing mouth until we land.” (Or maybe he said, “…until we f***ing land.” Witness reports are conflicting, and investigators are of the opinion that this point is insignificant in the overall context. However, in light of subsequent events, the use of this rather negative adverb to describe the impending landing seems ironically appropriate, and even prophetic.) I understand that both the copilot and the terrified passengers absolutely obeyed the captain’s command – the cabin was dead silent for the rest of the flight. In fact, the next sound heard was the prop tips dinging on the runway at Frankfort, followed by the screech of the belly sliding along the blacktop. Witnesses suggest the captain used the f-word one more time during the landing (see prophecy above).

In the aftermath of the gear-up landing, no one was ever able to ascertain exactly what the copilot’s thoughts were. Some folks think he just “dropped out” completely, staring out the window, totally unaware that the captain had failed to lower the gear. Others believe he noticed this omission, but was so terrified after the captain’s earlier tirade that he simply watched in fear as it happened without saying a word. And then there’s the third school of thought (towards which I tend) which believes that he saw what was happening and thought to himself, “You don’t want my help? OK, buddy…go ahead…make my day.” I have no confirmation of the report that some passengers heard giggling from the copilot’s area while the captain ordered emergency evacuation.

And the postscript. After the FAA got done with the two lads (30 day suspension for the captain, 15 for the copilot, if I remember), the company produced a novel application of CRM. They managed their crew resources by putting them both back to work…with a note posted in the scheduling office that no matter what, under no circumstances, would these two ever be allowed in the same company airplane again. There’s a lesson here somewhere, but after over 30 years I still haven’t figured it out.
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So what did you do with the 30 days off?
 
Personal disagreements in the workplace can take many roads. Some instructive and some destructive. I had the experience of serving with a senior officer whose command style would have made Captain Bligh seem liberal. He was an excellent pilot, and a demanding taskmaster who would light you up for the slightest deviation. I was an absolutely green jg with more than my share of ego. I could have shut down like the young FO, or I could have exploded, but for some reason, (by accident or some as yet unexplored character trait), I decided to not give the old SOB the satisfaction of seeing me screw up. And, while I was trying to figure out what I had done to incur this man's wrath, I unwittingly became a better pilot. When my review came due I was shocked to see he dropped some really high marks on me. Stress can be useful, it depends on which way you point the flame.
 
Most of the conflict I have seen is not between an old hand and a new person but between two experienced ones. Some people are just like oil and water and nothing will change it.
 
Do your job right and don't hurt anybody for long enough and eventually someday someone may say 'thanks'...
 
Oh, come on, Ron. I got mine in 1984, and I think you got yours before that. It was 1,500 TT in 1985 and I am SURE it had been 1,500 long before before that.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Oh, come on, Ron. I got mine in 1984, and I think you got yours before that. It was 1,500 TT in 1985 and I am SURE it had been 1,500 long before before that.
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That's strange. Last night, it was the first night of our pilot class. The teacher said something about the ATP 1500 thing to the class as if it was "new" and "due to an accident" and that "they were fighting it".

She is (I think) ATP and now a CFI and I think she said as an intro that she flew for the airlines for 2 years a long time ago. Not positive.
 
Maybe she was talking about this?

"Two years ago, in reaction to a regional turboprop airliner crash, congress passed and the president signed into law the Airline Safety Act of 2010. Although its mandates lack significant correlation to the causes of the accident, the act is well-intentioned to generally enhance the level of qualifications for new airline pilots. Fast forward to 2012, and the FAA has now issued its Notice of Proposed Rule-making (NPRM) to advise the public of what changes to expect in the regulations prompted by congress."

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airlines/1500-hour-rule/index.html
 
Nevermind, it sounds like something slightly different:

At the core of the proposed regulations is that all airline pilots—captains and first officers—must have an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate by August of 2013. The ATP certificate comes with an eligibility requirement of between 750 and 1500 hours of total flight time (the “1500 hour rule”), with 750 hours applying to military pilots and 1500 hours applying to most civilian pilots. For civilian-trained pilots, this represents about a 700-hour increase over current airline hiring minimums.

Today, regional airlines are hiring every qualified pilot they can recruit at about 800 hours.
 
Ron Levy said:
Don't remember. 1997 maybe? :dunno:
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Could it be that back then some of these 15 seat puddle jumpers were flown as part 135 scheduled operations that didn't actually require an ATP and that the 1201 hrs the 'captain' had was the time to get 135 IFR PIC priviledges ?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Oh, come on, Ron. I got mine in 1984, and I think you got yours before that. It was 1,500 TT in 1985 and I am SURE it had been 1,500 long before before that.
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:dunno: I was over 1500 hours in the late '70's, so it wouldn't have made any difference to me at that time.
 
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weilke said:
Could it be that back then some of these 15 seat puddle jumpers were flown as part 135 scheduled operations that didn't actually require an ATP and that the 1201 hrs the 'captain' had was the time to get 135 IFR PIC priviledges ?
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I'm pretty sure Air Kentucky was 121.
 
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