pilot IN COMMAND MEANS IN COMMAND

Thats been cut short.

I've seen it before. The tower flipped out (you can hear her getting close) then FINALLY stopped everything, and got a clear picture of what was going on.
 
There's another video on this floating around somewhere from the NTSB, using their 3D graphics and all that. US Air stayed planted there for a while, while the controller tried to sort out things with United. It was a pretty impressive decision by US Air, and it probably saved a few lives that night, if not a lot of paper work at least.
 
Greebo said:
Thats been cut short.

I've seen it before. The tower flipped out (you can hear her getting close) then FINALLY stopped everything, and got a clear picture of what was going on.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the controller stating "He's no where near the runway" was a bit idiotic in my opinion. She stated earlier in the transmissions that she couldn't see anything from the tower, and the United aircraft TOLD her that someone took off in front of them. That should've been a sign right there. At least the US Air pilot refused to move til it was sorted out.
 
Too bad United 1448 couldn't get a 337 to install an Airgizmo and a 496. The airport diagrams would have come in handy.
 
These are the things that really should cause a controller their job, IMHO. And pilots (in the 1448, they could have killed a lot of folks).
 
The the previous link's radio recording is cut and edited. NTSB had the full recording...but the visual on the other link is better. The controller really gets bitc....angry:mad:. After listening to the NTSB at the very end...they are still messed up. She states she is at K1 heading 150....the controller things she is pointed NW. The US Air guy earned his paycheck that night.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2000/incursion/incur_video.htm
 
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A cautionary tale. I remember thinking the first time I heard this, "Hmm, would I have had the confidence to do what the USAir guy did?" I hope, in the future, I will react as he did in whatever the circumstance might be. I think the NTSB investigations are excellent learning tools for all of us.
 
flyersfan31 said:
A cautionary tale. I remember thinking the first time I heard this, "Hmm, would I have had the confidence to do what the USAir guy did?" I hope, in the future, I will react as he did in whatever the circumstance might be. I think the NTSB investigations are excellent learning tools for all of us.
Click to expand...

You bet, the clue he picked up on that everyone else seemed to miss was, "We just had an aircraft take off". She just wasn't picking up on things. The gal on the United gave a clear description of her location and the controller still said "United doesn't know where they they are..." I'm not sure she was up to the pressure.
 
flyersfan31 said:
A cautionary tale. I remember thinking the first time I heard this, "Hmm, would I have had the confidence to do what the USAir guy did?" I hope, in the future, I will react as he did in whatever the circumstance might be. I think the NTSB investigations are excellent learning tools for all of us.
Click to expand...

Glad this was one of the responses. I made the post not just for something to cringe at but also to remind us its ok to say Sorry Can't Comply and not feel pressured by someone else.
 
We showed this in our flying club twice as a learning experience. We showed the first version where the is little visibility and it was pretty much an audio. We handed out approach plates so folks could review the airport before listening; then, ask club members to identify where everyone was from the audio.

Then we showed this version that identifies what's actually going on. Show how difficult situational awareness can become on the ground in low Vis. It was a real eye opener for all. When the controller told the United crew to just stay of the radio, she had planes get outta there, it caused a real stir!!

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
When the controller told the United crew to just stay of the radio, she had planes get outta there, it caused a real stir!!
Click to expand...

That was my big thing.

You don't know where a plane is located, THEY are telling you they're on the active, and you tell them to shut up and tell another plane to take off?

What kind of twisted reasoning is that?

My view is this. If a plane that is supposed to be taxiing tells me they're on the active, and I've no way to tell that they're NOT, everyone stops until we're SURE they're not. I don't care what passenger bill of rights exist and who might have to pay for having to wait, but safety is first. Period.
 
Yep, there was notable hubbub in the group the first time she spouted off! The second time, it got kinda loud in the room. Just shows one really needs to have situational awareness. Controllers make mistakes too! I've been told the captain of the plane that said he would just wait received an award of some sort.

Best,

Dave
 
She didn't miss that a plane just took off -- she heard and ignored him. She said, "Sir, no planes are using 23R." This guy is totally lost but says a plane just went by, she had just cleared the FedEx to depart 5R - 2+2 anyone?
 
A couple of things come to mind.... PVD was where the FAA was using enhanced runway and taxiway markings and signs. I don't know the status of that project but was any of that contributory (the pilot on the radio seemed to be confused as to their initial location). According to the airport diagram I have, there is a big note about an active surveillance system for the airport proper. How come NO ONE knew where anyone was?
And really, if I heard someone thought they were on a runway, I sure as hell wouldn't take off. The USAir guys, even though they were taking crap from the controller, did the right thing. "We're not moving until we sort this thing out."
 
silver-eagle said:
PVD was where the FAA was using enhanced runway and taxiway markings and signs.... According to the airport diagram I have, there is a big note about an active surveillance system for the airport proper. How come NO ONE knew where anyone was?
Click to expand...
I may be wrong on this, but I think those signs and active surveillance programs are a direct result of this incident. They were not in place at the time.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
I may be wrong on this, but I think those signs and active surveillance programs are a direct result of this incident. They were not in place at the time.

-Skip
Click to expand...

You're exactly correct. The enhanced runway hold short markings and ASDE-X programs were created as a result of this incident (December 6, 1999). The controller involved in this incident still works at PVD tower and is informally referred to as "incursion lady" by most of the pilots there (off frequency).
 
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flyersfan31 said:
She didn't miss that a plane just took off -- she heard and ignored him. She said, "Sir, no planes are using 23R." This guy is totally lost but says a plane just went by, she had just cleared the FedEx to depart 5R - 2+2 anyone?
Click to expand...

Right, she didn't miss the fact, she missed the correllation...
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
...
The controller involved in this incident still works at PVD tower and is informally referred to as "incursion lady" by most of the pilots there (off frequency).
Click to expand...

That is classic! :rofl:
 
I've been there and if there is only one lady there, I have interacted with her. I think I was married to her once.
 
Three decades ago, as a soloed student, I had just touched down at FCM on 18 in a C150 when tower came on with "(tail nbr) get off runway immediately". I punched the left brake and went into the weeds. Looking over my right shoulder, I saw an Arrow touch down right where I used to be. The pattern was full, and he had overrun me on final.

I owe that controller my life - the guy on the bottom generally doesn't fare too well.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
You're exactly correct. The enhanced runway hold short markings and ASDE-X programs were created as a result of this incident (December 6, 1999). The controller involved in this incident still works at PVD tower and is informally referred to as "incursion lady" by most of the pilots there (off frequency).
Click to expand...

I wonder if she's the same one who used to lose us in the pattern at BFI... makes you wonder.
 
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