Pilot As A Second Career? Possible? Worthwhile? Advice?

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MagicBill

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MagicBill
My guess is that this, or a similar thread, has been done many times but I did some searches and couldn't find a thread about it. So please excuse me if I'm rehashing stuff that's been discussed a million times before.

My question is very general and I suspect the answers will be very subjective but I would love to get people's input.

Is it worthwhile to become a professional pilot if you're currently just a 40 year old joe-schmo with a family and a few bucks already in the bank and you want to make a career change?

From what I can gather, it will take years and and years and years to "maybe if I'm really good and really lucky" become an airline pilot at a major airline where the money is good. Before that I'll be toiling in mediocrity for a mid-rage carrier making what? Less than 40k/year? Less than 30k? Is the cost, financially and timewise, of a PPL+IR+commercial+everything else involved, going to be worth the investment to someone already 40 years old?

I've been trying to find sources of info but on the internet everything is suspect. So I wanted to reach out to people actively in aviation and get their honest thoughts. Help? Thoughts? Midlife crisis? Cheaper to get a 20 year old girlfriend? :-(
 
If you think about it you've probably answered your own questions. ;)
 
If you're collecting a pension that will support you/ your family or have a well earning partner who is happy to do so while you spend $100k on your way to an $18k annual paycheck in a few years, no worries.
 
Henning said:
If you're collecting a pension that will support you/ your family or have a well earning partner who is happy to do so while you spend $100k on your way to an $18k annual paycheck in a few years, no worries.
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LOL Yeah, I pretty much knew the answer to my question. Just had to hear it from others I guess. Hmmmmm, what should I do with the rest of my life? :)
 
MagicBill said:
LOL Yeah, I pretty much knew the answer to my question. Just had to hear it from others I guess. Hmmmmm, what should I do with the rest of my life? :)
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The sad reality is probably just keep doing what you're doing and use flying for fun to alleviate the pains of your mid life crisis. You can get a decent used ultralight for about $5k, join a local flying club if there is one, even the price of normal GA planes is at a record low with many now available for less than a new car. As far as career wise goes, maybe work on an advanced degree or skill program that will take you to the next level in the fields that you already know and qualify for. I have 'started over' many times learning several different fields, but I started working when I was 11 spending the first 8 years in mechanical and fabrication industries. The skills and work ethic I developed there opened a lot of doors along the way. The older I get (47 now) the tougher it is though.

You could also take a hobby you have and create a small business out of it, but as far as flying goes, keep it recreational and work on your tickets for fun getting through your instrument and commercial. Hang around the airport having fun and you never know, you may end up flying right seat in a jet as a part time job. To go out and and go after it as a new career though is really a bit risky unless the conditions I mentioned before are met.
 
MagicBill said:
LOL Yeah, I pretty much knew the answer to my question. Just had to hear it from others I guess. Hmmmmm, what should I do with the rest of my life? :)
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People change careers all the time if they are motivated enough. I went from Caddy to Journeyman Machinist to Mechanical Engineer to Management to Consultant to retired Old Fart. Each one, especially the last one, was a step up but did not required as big an investment compared to the reward as you are considering.

The later steps allowed me to indulge my habits like flying.

If you see an opportunity to advance yourself in your current field or another one, check the risk vs reward and when you come to the fork in the road, take it.:wink2:

Cheers
 
Piloting was my second career, so I guess I am qualified to answer...although I had advantages that others might not have.

I soloed at age 34 while still on active duty in the military. In the four years before I retired I got my private, commercial, and flight instructor certificates and an instrument rating. After I retired I got my multiengine, instrument instructor, and ATP.....but I was getting a check from the Coast Guard every month, which is a thumb on the scales. There is no way that I could have achieved the ratings/certificates if I didn't have that to fall back on.

Not saying that your plan is impossible; age is not the barrier, money is.

Bob Gardner
 
Rigged4Flight said:
Charter pilot.
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That is not something you get in a Crackerjack box. Before an insurance company will let you carry paying passengers, you have to collect the appropriate certificates and ratings and log a substantial number of hours.

On the happy day that I logged my 500th hour, I noted that according to 135.243 I was qualified to be an air taxi PIC under VFR conditions. Went to the chief pilot of a 135 operation who happened to be a friend and told him that I had achieved this goal. He did not laugh, being a friend, but he did tell me to come back when I had 1000 hours.

Bob Gardner
 
It will work as a second career as long as you don't give up your first. Sadly, the industry has long recognized that aviation junkies will work for peanuts if they can fly.
 
MagicBill said:
Midlife crisis?
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My guess...

I know a number of people who have tried this with mixed success. The main problem I observed is that the job they imagined didn't square with the reality.
 
I'm currently working to become a professional pilot. I'm 25 and work a full-time office job. I fly when I can and am taking my idea with a grain of salt. There is absolutely no guarantee I will make it past anything but skydiver pilot and CFI, and I'm okay with that. I take more joy in flying than anything. I have no desire to be an airline pilot, but if offered, I would take it. Personally, I'd rather fly freight, air ambulance or charter ops.

I figure at this age, I can risk it. My girlfriend supports and nudged me into this. Probably because she was tired of seeing me blab about flying planes when I don't actually fly planes.

Anyway, it's a bit risky as I'm taking some student loans, but it's nothing I can't pay back. As it stands right now, I'm going to shoot to get my CFI and instruct when I can while working a full-time job. If I can make enough money instructing and have a good customer base/active school, I might consider doing that full-time. From there, I'm not sure where I'll go.


Edit: People say I'm stupid or they disagree, but I'm not gonna let some words on the internet scare me away. I did have one pilot guy say no, but he also is working for peanuts at a regional. This is just something I have to do. I don't want to turn 62 and look back to say, "Darn it. Why didn't I do that??"
 
HerrGruyere said:
.

This is just something I have to do. I don't want to turn 62 and look back to say, "Darn it. Why didn't I do that??"
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Go for it. But bear in mind that economics and desires change as the clock turns. What looks great at 25 may not seem so great at 35 if you're wishing you were making burger-flip wages. And a number of 62-year-olds are asking themselves why they did vs. why they didn't.
 
I think I would just continue instructing on the side with a "regular" job if I knew I were to be making that little.
 
Thanks for the input, guys. I appreciate it. Sounds like, in my particular situation, it would be best for me to make money elsewhere and spend it on aviation as a hobby with an eye open to opportunities if they happen to arrive.

Good luck, HerrGruyere. Keep us posted. I will just have to live vicariously thru you. :)

Now, what to do....what to do. Hmmmmm.
 
There's more to it than the money. When you make your hobby your job, well it becomes a job and all that goes with that. My military pilot friends love the flying but there is plenty of catches that comes with that - mainly collaterals and other work demands. The couple I know who got out recently opted for cargo or flying as OPFOR for contractors as opposed to airlines.

I don't even have my PPL. I'm in the reading everything and saving money camp but flying in and of itself will be my midlife crisis.
 
MagicBill said:
Thanks for the input, guys. I appreciate it. Sounds like, in my particular situation, it would be best for me to make money elsewhere and spend it on aviation as a hobby with an eye open to opportunities if they happen to arrive.

Good luck, HerrGruyere. Keep us posted. I will just have to live vicariously thru you. :)

Now, what to do....what to do. Hmmmmm.
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I'm sure you guys will hear about my struggles and successes.
 
I'm planning on doing this. But, and it's a BIG but, my goal is not to make a "living" while flying, but just to earn enough so that I'm not draining money while flying. Meaning that the income from my flying "job" needs to cover:
  • The tax bite of the additional income over my retirement/other "normal" income.
  • The cost of getting/staying qualified to do the job (medical/proficiency, type rating if I have to pay for it).
  • Any expenses if I'm running my own business like a flight school or sightseeing operation.
  • And so on.
Right now I'm concentrating on earning enough with my first job so that the second job will be possible later in life.
 
HerrGruyere said:
I think I would just continue instructing on the side with a "regular" job if I knew I were to be making that little.
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Some airlines forbid this in their contracts for fear of you timing yourself out, especially sitting reserve.
 
You said you had a family which I'm guessing includes a wife and kids. I'm no expert but I remember the $17,000 per year start as a first officer / copilot for a small-ish company usually involves crappy hours, relocation, and unpredictable schedule.

Not good for spending time with wife and kids. More geared to a young person.
 
If there is still such a thing as GA when I retire in 16 years, I plan on becoming a CFI.
 
denverpilot said:
Some airlines forbid this in their contracts for fear of you timing yourself out, especially sitting reserve.
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Heh I meant keeping my (whatever happens to be at that time) current desk job. Nevertheless, it's still good to know that bit of information despite me not knowing what you mean by "timing out."

Do you mean exceeding the maximum allowable flight hours in a work period due to instructing?
 
The kind of flying job you are thinking of makes a big difference as well. As CFI, charter, corporate and regional all have different requirements? Which one are you thinking about working up to?
 
Do you mean exceeding the maximum allowable flight hours in a work period due to instructing?
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When flying Part 121 or Part 135 (airline or charter), one is limited to a maximum number of commercial flight hours in a given period of time. All commercial time is cumulative; one can't fly a thousand hours in a year for operator A, and also fly the same number for operator B; one is limited to the thousand hours, period, and it's a combination of all the commercial flying that one does.

Employers generally dictate what other flying you can do, outside your employment, if you intend to fly for hire.

I'm currently working to become a professional pilot. I'm 25 and work a full-time office job.
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That puts you in the same boat as just about everyone else trying to get into a flying career.
 
Heh I thought most others would be fresh out of Embry-Riddle or something, or it would be mostly instructors out there working hard to build hours.

Oh well, like I said: if instructing is as far as I make it, if I even make it that far, then so be it. I tried. I still fly planes!
 
HerrGruyere said:
Heh I thought most others would be fresh out of Embry-Riddle or something, or it would be mostly instructors out there working hard to build hours.

Oh well, like I said: if instructing is as far as I make it, if I even make it that far, then so be it. I tried. I still fly planes!
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Oh no, for every seat that opens up there are a thousand pilots looking to fill it, There aren't enough Riddle Diddles for that.
 
HerrGruyere said:
Heh I thought most others would be fresh out of Embry-Riddle or something, or it would be mostly instructors out there working hard to build hours.

Oh well, like I said: if instructing is as far as I make it, if I even make it that far, then so be it. I tried. I still fly planes!
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Oh no, for every seat that opens up there are a thousand pilots looking to fill it, There aren't enough Riddle Diddles for that.

"If instructing is as far as I make it..." sigh CFI should be a 1500 hour rating and require 250 hrs of flying a job to get. The standard of instruction today is mostly poor.
 
I'd be okay with CFI being a 1,500 hour rating. There are instructors out there who are just building hours and not really trying to teach anybody. They are just there. I wouldn't be one of those instructors.

I'm not in a rush to dive into a career of flying, anyway. I'm 25. Unless I die doing something else (possible), I'll be alive until at least 80. Plenty of time to fly for peanuts.

The point I'm trying to make is that I really enjoy flying. Getting paid to do so would be a plus, but if it doesn't work out that way, then so be it. I don't have some acute case of Shiny Jet Syndrome.
 
HerrGruyere said:
I'd be okay with CFI being a 1,500 hour rating. There are instructors out there who are just building hours and not really trying to teach anybody. They are just there. I wouldn't be one of those instructors.

I'm not in a rush to dive into a career of flying, anyway. I'm 25. Unless I die doing something else (possible), I'll be alive until at least 80. Plenty of time to fly for peanuts.

The point I'm trying to make is that I really enjoy flying. Getting paid to do so would be a plus, but if it doesn't work out that way, then so be it. I don't have some acute case of Shiny Jet Syndrome.
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When you take that flying from the point where you get to direct when, where and how its done to a company dictating those things some of that love of flying will be killed off.
 
Many say that, but is it just a known fact that whatever love/passion one has for a certain activity, it automatically gets killed off when it becomes their job? What about racecar drivers or cooks? Both have passions for their work, but now that they have to race on this track or cook with salmon instead of halibut, do they automatically hate it?

I'm aware that some of the passion will leave if I were to ever get a job flying - particularly if it's on-demand freight/charter. Perhaps I'd rather continue laying in bed with my girlfriend that morning. It just comes with the territory. But, I still think I would find enjoyment in piloting an aircraft despite being told the who/what/when/where about it.

Man everyone is trying to squish my goals, hopes and dreams today! I can't anybody on the phone at work and then everyone's shootin' me down on the internet! Hahahah

I realize, though, that the more seasoned members are probably just giving sage advice about what they know and have seen. I appreciate that and am thankful to have access to such a resource.
 
HerrGruyere said:
Many say that, but is it just a known fact that whatever love/passion one has for a certain activity, it automatically gets killed off when it becomes their job? What about racecar drivers or cooks? Both have passions for their work, but now that they have to race on this track or cook with salmon instead of halibut, do they automatically hate it?

I'm aware that some of the passion will leave if I were to ever get a job flying - particularly if it's on-demand freight/charter. Perhaps I'd rather continue laying in bed with my girlfriend that morning. It just comes with the territory. But, I still think I would find enjoyment in piloting an aircraft despite being told the who/what/when/where about it.

Man everyone is trying to squish my goals, hopes and dreams today! I can't anybody on the phone at work and then everyone's shootin' me down on the internet! Hahahah

I realize, though, that the more seasoned members are probably just giving sage advice about what they know and have seen. I appreciate that and am thankful to have access to such a resource.
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Since most people need to do something to make a living I think the proper comparison would be flying for a living vs. doing something else to make a living. It's not really useful to compare flying for a living vs. flying for pleasure. As far as whether or not your hobby is "spoiled" by doing it for a job, I can point to a whole spectrum of attitudes among people who do it for a living. It depends on your own personality and preferences.
 
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I'm not sure how I would feel about it, but I think I would be okay with it. I used to want to be an auto mechanic, but then I remembered all those difficult times I had trying to get the timing belt back on an '88 325is, or dropping an important bolt in the hole of the engine mount on the same car and never getting it out, or banging on the rim to get it to separate from the brake rotor face. Then I realized I would probably be a really irritated and overworked car mechanic.

Even though I feel like I can't say it because I'm too young, I'm kind of just a rough point in my life. My current job is not what I saw myself doing when I was handed my degree by my beaming professors nor is it as intellectually and emotionally stimulating as I hoped. My previous position was the same way, although there I had the option of becoming a lawyer. I didn't really want to do that, though. My jobs before that were simple retail jobs that were meaningless and filled with berating from customers for the most inane of reasons. One time, I was yelled at because we ran out of fart machines.

I figure I'd try my hand at pursuing something I've had a lifelong interest in and passion for instead of going another route which would have yielded me hours of frustration and boredom and probably cost just as much if not more than pilot training. In the meantime, I'll still try to further my desk-flying career to see where I can go. I'm having a ton of fun in the process (when the weather cooperates) and fulfilling at least one life goal (get a pilot's license). So, things aren't all that bad.

Why did I just write a novel of a post to an anonymous internet forum?
 
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When you take that flying from the point where you get to direct when, where and how its done to a company dictating those things some of that love of flying will be killed off.
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That may be true for some people, I suppose. I've run into a number of pilots who have expressed that same sentiment, who say that their goal is to fly as little as possible and make as much money as possible.

I've always approached my flying career a little differently. I wanted to experience as much as possible, as broadly as possible in the industry, and thus far, I have.

If it's no longer interesting, I go do something else.

Any day someone will pay me to fly, rather than me having to pay to do it, is a good day. I've flown into thunderstorms for a living, flown into combat for a living, flown into dirt airstrips and the worlds busiest runways for a living, spent countless hours flying through and landing in the Grand Canyon, flying down pine forests just above the tree tops or between the trees, and soaring over most every nation on earth, and frankly, it hasn't got to the point where I need to go do something else yet. Just find another part of aviation to experience.

I've spent ungodly hours turning wrenches on airplanes, on radials, horizontally opposed piston engines, turboprops, and turbojet and turbofan equipment, building fuel lines and hydraulic lines, riveting, wiring, repairing, painting, covering, troubleshooting, fixing, and taking apart. I've done it in repair stations, on the line, in wet freezing weather, in windstorms, in the desert, and in the rain, snow, and sleet. I've done it when my fingers are so cold they hurt, so cold I could no longer feel them, so cold that they stuck to things. I've gone years when I had nothing that wasn't soiled with 120 weight oil, when the scars on my hands from burns and safety wire cuts never seemed to heal, or were ever present.

I've flown with young and old students, and received instruction from the same teachers. I've flown in and logged time in over 80 different types of aircraft so far. I feel like I've just scratched the surface.

I just got a dispatch; I'm off to a fire. It isn't boring yet. I don't think you'll find it any different.
 
I bet if you shook Doug's hand, it would be like shaking hands with a catcher's mitt. I found his post inspirational, though. Persistence and dedication is key.
 
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Got this job opening today via email from the 99s. Kind of gives you an idea of what they are looking for out there:


Captain - Heavy Jet

Job Title: Captain - Heavy Jet

Pilot Captain - Heavy Jet

Responsibilities:

The Captain-Heavy Jet role is accountable for flight operations, compliance, safety and customer service excellence. The main responsibilities and key activities for this role include but are not limited to:

• Safe conduct (per company and FAA requirements) of flight operations, for all flights.

• Keeping up to date on the latest developments within the business aviation community, and ensuring compliance with the FARs and other Federal, state, local and foreign regulations affecting flight operations as well as the policies and procedures specified in the company operations manual.

• Use and follow the standard operating procedures (SOP’s) manual.

• Preparing and distributing periodic reports and statistics as required.

• Captains must act with tact and decorum while ensuring an efficient and
safe operation

• Complying with schedules, and other directives governing the aircraft's
operation

• Ensuring that preflight inspections are performed

• Studying weather conditions at destination, enroute, alternate airports
and departure points

• Preparing flight plans

• Ensuring that the aircraft is clean and prepared for flight with all
provisions on board for the safety and comfort of the passengers

• Reviewing and calculating the aircraft weight and balance, fuel on board
and performance charts

• Using checklists

• Supervising the first officer (second in command) in any duties necessary for the smooth, safe and efficient operation of the aircraft

• Coordinating the functioning of all crewmembers assigned to the flight

• Monitoring crew performance, sharing knowledge with crewmembers and
evaluating crewmember potential for advancement

• Making decisions necessary to start, delay, or cancel flights and deviate
the flight from planned route or destination when operating conditions
dictate

Qualifications:

6-8 years flight operations experience as a pilot.

• Bachelor’s degree in business or a related field preferred.

• In-depth knowledge of domestic and foreign flight operations and
procedures required.

• ATP, a type rating in the Citation 750 or comparable heavy jet preferred
and a minimum of 5,000 hours total time with at least 1,000 turbine and 500 PIC jet required.

• First Class Medical Certificate

• Strong customer focus with the ability to effectively communicate at all
levels within the organization.
 
I only met one of the qualifications, and that was in March 2011 (the First Class).
 
The only happy pilots I know are the ones who never flew for an airline. Corporate, goverment, instructing, charter, freight, Ag and fire. The happy guys have done all of them.
As for the income prospects, it's no better or worse than any other job with the equivalent of a 2 year associates degree. Unless you get in one some racket like a union job, goverment or you happen to be a good salesman, you won't make more than the guy who is good at fixing air conditioners.
 
weilke said:
The only happy pilots I know are the ones who never flew for an airline. Corporate, goverment, instructing, charter, freight, Ag and fire. The happy guys have done all of them.
As for the income prospects, it's no better or worse than any other job with the equivalent of a 2 year associates degree. Unless you get in one some racket like a union job, goverment or you happen to be a good salesman, you won't make more than the guy who is good at fixing air conditioners.
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Right, except compare the costs between an Associates Degree and an ATP... CP pays less than McDonalds.
 
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