Picking up IFR FlightPlan airborne

ecrane99

ecrane99

Pre-Flight
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Nov 1, 2009
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31
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CT
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Display name:
Ed
Hi All,
Is there any problem pre filing an ifr flightplan and picking it up airborne?
last week I flew from CT - Virginia. I filed an ifr plan from atlantic city to Norfolk va. I flew VFR and called approach near atlantic city and asked activate my flightplan that was on file with them. I was lightly scolded by the controller that I should have picked up my flightplan on the ground.

I have done this many times, but this is the first time i was scolded. I politely asked for a better way to accomplish this next time, but the controller had no advice for me.

Any help apprecited.

Thanks.

Ed
 
ecrane99 said:
Hi All,
Is there any problem pre filing an ifr flightplan and picking it up airborne?
last week I flew from CT - Virginia. I filed an ifr plan from atlantic city to Norfolk va. I flew VFR and called approach near atlantic city and asked activate my flightplan that was on file with them. I was lightly scolded by the controller that I should have picked up my flightplan on the ground.

I have done this many times, but this is the first time i was scolded. I politely asked for a better way to accomplish this next time, but the controller had no advice for me.

Any help apprecited.
Click to expand...

What did you file as the departure point?
 
ecrane99 said:
Hi All,
Is there any problem pre filing an ifr flightplan and picking it up airborne?
last week I flew from CT - Virginia. I filed an ifr plan from atlantic city to Norfolk va. I flew VFR and called approach near atlantic city and asked activate my flightplan that was on file with them. I was lightly scolded by the controller that I should have picked up my flightplan on the ground.

I have done this many times, but this is the first time i was scolded. I politely asked for a better way to accomplish this next time, but the controller had no advice for me.

Any help apprecited.

Thanks.

Ed
Click to expand...
Sounds like a grumpy controller.
 
If I file a departure point that has a tower, the only time I'll depart VFR and pick up clearance in the air is if it's VFR and they're giving me a long delay time on the ground. I've done this out of PNE (Northeast Philly) before.

If you're at an uncontrolled field, it makes sense to depart VFR and pick it up later.

If you filed for ACY to VA and departed from CT, the guy might have thought you'd started on the ground at ACY. Although if you'd gotten off from CT they probably would've given you some bad routing, such as way out to the tip of Long Island and then a long over water stretch. BTDT.

Doesn't seem to me you did anything wrong, the controller was just in a bad mood.
 
When I file for in air pickup, I always use a VOR as a departure point, not an airport. Seems to avoid confusion a bit. That said, there is nothing wrong with what you did. Controller just had a burr under his blanket for some reason.
 
ecrane99 said:
I filed ACY as dep point. Atlantic city
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Then the approach controller wouldn't have your flight plan, it would have been sent to ACY tower. Any other fix within ACY approach airspace as the departure point would have sent the flight plan to approach control.
 
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I pick up IFR flight plans in the air but mostly only in remote areas of the west. I file the departure point as the airport and have never received any grief from the controllers.
 
Everskyward said:
I pick up IFR flight plans in the air but mostly only in remote areas of the west. I file the departure point as the airport and have never received any grief from the controllers.
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I do exactly that in Chicago airspace and never get any grief either. In fact if I try to pick up my clearance on the ground I often get asked by Chicago if I can depart VFR and pick it up in the air.
 
I'm at a towered AP and try to depart IFR, but will depart VFR and pick up the plan in the air if there are significant delays. I've never had a problem. Just make sure you can stay VFR until picking up your IFR clearance if weather is an issue. I have had a clearance canceled when I picked it up from tower; then, departed VFR because clearances were taking so long. Had to call FSS and refile in the air.

I normally depart VFR from uncontrolled fields if it's VFR and pick the clearance up in the air as has been said.

Sounds like something was just some extra work for the controller and he was letting you know.

Best,

Dave
 
roncachamp said:
Then the approach controller wouldn't have your flight plan, it would have been sent to ACY tower. Any other fix within ACY approach airspace as the departure point would have sent the flight plan to approach control.
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The money shot, right there.

Nothing wrong with what you did, except it was a little extra work for a controller who, perhaps, was a little light on spare time.
 
SCCutler said:
The money shot, right there.

Nothing wrong with what you did, except it was a little extra work for a controller who, perhaps, was a little light on spare time.
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If you depart from a controlled field (or one that has a discrete clearance delivery frequency listed) and want to pick up your IFR clearance in the air it seem to help ATC if you make these intentions known to the local controller (ground or clearance delivery). That way you avoid the possibility of automatic canceling and they can ship the clearance over to the next facility down your route so that controller doesn't have to search. Just say "I want to depart VFR and pick up my IFR clearance in the air at XXX" where "XXX" could be a waypoint in your route, outside the Class B, etc. Often you can also get your squawk code while still on the ground and still depart VFR, saving you some knob twisting in the air and saving ATC some bandwidth as well.
 
If I am in a hurry and the conditions are VFR, I will not hesitate to depart and pickup the IFR clearance in the air. In some cases such as at Oshkosh, ATC doesn't have the time to support air pickups, but even then, once you get out of the local area, I have been able to pickup clearances when airborne without a problem.

About a week ago I had filed IFR, but the conditions were severe blue. I called the departure controller and said I had filed IFR, but the conditions were so beautiful, I was going VFR with flight following. He said, no problem on the IFR and encouraged me to go IFR, which I did.
 
SCCutler said:
The money shot, right there.

Nothing wrong with what you did, except it was a little extra work for a controller who, perhaps, was a little light on spare time.
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Thanks Everyone. Next time I am going to file from a fix near ACY.
 
ecrane99 said:
Hi All,
Is there any problem pre filing an ifr flightplan and picking it up airborne?
last week I flew from CT - Virginia. I filed an ifr plan from atlantic city to Norfolk va. I flew VFR and called approach near atlantic city and asked activate my flightplan that was on file with them. I was lightly scolded by the controller that I should have picked up my flightplan on the ground.

I have done this many times, but this is the first time i was scolded. I politely asked for a better way to accomplish this next time, but the controller had no advice for me.

Any help apprecited.

Thanks.

Ed
Click to expand...

Ed,

In busy airspace, you will be scolded for activating in the air. My experience is that it's a regional thing. Potomac Approach around the DC area, you'll get scolded and denied.

Greg
 
ggroves said:
Ed,

In busy airspace, you will be scolded for activating in the air. My experience is that it's a regional thing. Potomac Approach around the DC area, you'll get scolded and denied.

Greg
Click to expand...

Baring a NOTAM or SFAR to the contrary I don't think ATC has a choice in this matter so I'm having a hard time seeing them getting away with denying service anywhere else. In the DC SFAR you're required to get a code/clearance before launching VFR or IFR so that's a different kettle of snakes. As to the "scolding" it should help if you make the extra effort to ensure your clearance will be forwarded to the facility you intend to contact for clearance.
 
gismo said:
Baring a NOTAM or SFAR to the contrary I don't think ATC has a choice in this matter so I'm having a hard time seeing them getting away with denying service anywhere else. In the DC SFAR you're required to get a code/clearance before launching VFR or IFR so that's a different kettle of snakes. As to the "scolding" it should help if you make the extra effort to ensure your clearance will be forwarded to the facility you intend to contact for clearance.
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I wish that were true. [post=201066]Here's[/post] where I wrote about a case to the contrary!
 
gismo said:
Baring a NOTAM or SFAR to the contrary I don't think ATC has a choice in this matter
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Actually, they do have a choice. Providing IFR pick-up to aircraft which took off VFR is done on a workload-permitting basis. If they have their hands full with the IFR traffic they have already, the ATC Handbook (FAA Order 7110.65) allows them to tell the VFR aircraft to stand by until they have time to deal with the pick-up. Also, if there's other IFR traffic in the area, and granting a clearance to you would create a traffic conflict, they are prohibited from issuing you a clearance until the other traffic no longer would conflict. That's what happened in this accident. For those reasons, the foresighted pilot never takes off VFR with the intent of picking up an IFR clearance airborne without viable options (other than declaring an emergency) in case the controller can't issue an IFR clearance promptly.

That said, there's nothing in 7110.65 about issuing scoldings.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, they do have a choice. Providing IFR pick-up to aircraft which took off VFR is done on a workload-permitting basis.
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What ATC services are not provided on a workload permitting basis?
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, they do have a choice. Providing IFR pick-up to aircraft which took off VFR is done on a workload-permitting basis. If they have their hands full with the IFR traffic they have already, the ATC Handbook (FAA Order 7110.65) allows them to tell the VFR aircraft to stand by until they have time to deal with the pick-up. Also, if there's other IFR traffic in the area, and granting a clearance to you would create a traffic conflict, they are prohibited from issuing you a clearance until the other traffic no longer would conflict. That's what happened in this accident. For those reasons, the foresighted pilot never takes off VFR with the intent of picking up an IFR clearance airborne without viable options (other than declaring an emergency) in case the controller can't issue an IFR clearance promptly.

That said, there's nothing in 7110.65 about issuing scoldings.
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OK, I agree that if the system is saturated or there's a conflict with existing IFR traffic you can indeed be denied a clearance or at least postponed but this is true whether you are in the air or on the ground. I guess what I really meant was that ATC shouldn't be able to deny giving a clearance to an airplane that has a valid IFR flight plan on file simply because that airplane departed VFR expecting an airborne pickup. I (perhaps incorrectly) interpreted the earlier post to imply that the controller involved refused to provide a clearance solely because the call came from a plane already in thea air.
 
On more than one occasion I've been told to standby or they couldn't issue a clearance at that time when VFR picking up my IFR. It was pretty easy to tell what was going on as the frequency was pretty congested. As Ron said, I don't depart VFR thinking I will pick up my IFR clearance unless I know I can stay VFR. Out of uncontrolled fields, I depart VFR more frequently, but still plan on being able to stay VFR long enough to be sure it won't be a problem. I've even called approach on land line to check ahead on more than one occasion.

Best,

Dave
 
gismo said:
I guess what I really meant was that ATC shouldn't be able to deny giving a clearance to an airplane that has a valid IFR flight plan on file simply because that airplane departed VFR expecting an airborne pickup.
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Well, they aren't able to do that. But if you pop up in their airspace without having a strip in front of the controller, it creates more work for the controller than if you had filed so that controller already had a strip. Any time there's more work for the controller, the controller needs a larger space in his/her available capacity to fit you in, and the likelihood of being told "stand by" or "unable" rather than "cleared to" goes up.
 
When I've tried that in PIT airspace I get the same "punishment" every time -- "Maintain VFR on 260 heading at or below 3000."

If I call Clearance Delivery on the phone, I get picked up and turned on course almost immediately on departure.
 
ecrane99 said:
Hi All,
Is there any problem pre filing an ifr flightplan and picking it up airborne?
last week I flew from CT - Virginia. I filed an ifr plan from atlantic city to Norfolk va. I flew VFR and called approach near atlantic city and asked activate my flightplan that was on file with them. I was lightly scolded by the controller that I should have picked up my flightplan on the ground.

I have done this many times, but this is the first time i was scolded. I politely asked for a better way to accomplish this next time, but the controller had no advice for me.
Click to expand...

I've been doing the same thing. Departing AZ, picking up an IFR flight plan enroute over Bakersfield, CA -> San Jose,CA.

I usually specify I will be in the air when I open the flight plan, and on the last call into 800wxbrief, the briefer put "UP" in the remarks section. Never heard it before, but worked as usual.

I typically have more luck 'revising' a flight plan than completely filing a 'new' one with a grumpy controller. YMMV
 
AirBaker said:
I usually specify I will be in the air when I open the flight plan, and on the last call into 800wxbrief, the briefer put "UP" in the remarks section. Never heard it before, but worked as usual.
Click to expand...

Interesting. "UP" is the contraction for unknown precipitation.
 
roncachamp said:
Interesting. "UP" is the contraction for unknown precipitation.
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And here I thought it meant the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Kinda like when I keep seeing all the references to Volcanic Ash in auto-translated weather briefings for the Richmond VA area.
 
AirBaker said:
I've been doing the same thing. Departing AZ, picking up an IFR flight plan enroute over Bakersfield, CA -> San Jose,CA.

I usually specify I will be in the air when I open the flight plan, and on the last call into 800wxbrief, the briefer put "UP" in the remarks section. Never heard it before, but worked as usual.

I typically have more luck 'revising' a flight plan than completely filing a 'new' one with a grumpy controller. YMMV
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Out west, picking up a clearance in the air seems to be a commonly accepted practice. Even as far as IL I've not gotten any flack for it.

Here in the Bos-Wash corridor though, the controllers do not think very highly of folks who try to pick up clearances in the air. Better have an excuse ready on initial call up. I can't entirely blame them, since things are much busier and more congested out here. They've trained me well, that's for sure. I fly out west and I'm practically afraid to pick up in air.
 
Another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it's usually easier for ATC if you pick up your flight plan before you get to the departure point. Departing from an uncontrolled airport is an exception. I think they just get confused if you ask to get your clearance once you're rather far away from where your filed departure point is, especially if that point is a towered airport.

roncachamp said:
What ATC services are not provided on a workload permitting basis?
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Most of them for IFR. I don't think "workload permitting basis" comes into play much when we're talking about essential IFR services. Of course, you have to get the clearance first....
 
sba55 said:
Another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it's usually easier for ATC if you pick up your flight plan before you get to the departure point. Departing from an uncontrolled airport is an exception. I think they just get confused if you ask to get your clearance once you're rather far away from where your filed departure point is, especially if that point is a towered airport.
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It's a bit simpler if the controller that you're trying to pick up the clearance with actually has the flight plan.

Most of them for IFR.
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No. No ATC service can be provided if workload does not permit it.
 
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sba55 said:
Another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it's usually easier for ATC if you pick up your flight plan before you get to the departure point. Departing from an uncontrolled airport is an exception. I think they just get confused if you ask to get your clearance once you're rather far away from where your filed departure point is, especially if that point is a towered airport.
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My understanding is that it's better if your filed departure point is in the ATC sector where you will be asking for the clearance.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Out west, picking up a clearance in the air seems to be a commonly accepted practice. Even as far as IL I've not gotten any flack for it.

Here in the Bos-Wash corridor though, the controllers do not think very highly of folks who try to pick up clearances in the air. Better have an excuse ready on initial call up. I can't entirely blame them, since things are much busier and more congested out here. They've trained me well, that's for sure. I fly out west and I'm practically afraid to pick up in air.
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You don't even have to go that far west to pick up your clearance in the air without issues. Come out to my area and you can pick it up from New York Center no problems. Obviously I don't bother from Williamsport, but if I'm at an untowered field, no problem.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Here in the Bos-Wash corridor though, the controllers do not think very highly of folks who try to pick up clearances in the air. Better have an excuse ready on initial call up. I can't entirely blame them, since things are much busier and more congested out here. They've trained me well, that's for sure. I fly out west and I'm practically afraid to pick up in air.
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Same for PIT -- ask for a clearance in the air and you'll hear, "Contact Flight Service, remain clear of Class bravo..."
 
Actually, I've picked up my IFR clearance in the air out of PNE with PHL approach. Then dropped it because of the crappy clearance they gave me (they said "We don't have any better routings"), went VFR over NYC, and picked it up again with Boston Center. Go figure.
 
I think it's a function of how busy the airspace is and a little bit of local culture. East coast corridor is generally busy and ATC generally doesn't want to be bothered with inputting a flight plan for you in the busier areas. While the West Coast is also busy, they already have no-advance-filing TEC procedures so I can see it not being as big a deal there.

Other areas are generally variable. I haven't had much of a problem popping up IFR in Colorado, but I have heard pilots refused and told to call FSS because the controllers were too busy.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think it's a function of how busy the airspace is and a little bit of local culture. East coast corridor is generally busy and ATC generally doesn't want to be bothered with inputting a flight plan for you in the busier areas. While the West Coast is also busy, they already have no-advance-filing TEC procedures so I can see it not being as big a deal there.

Other areas are generally variable. I haven't had much of a problem popping up IFR in Colorado, but I have heard pilots refused and told to call FSS because the controllers were too busy.
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There seems to be some confusion regarding what this thread is about. I thought we were talking about picking up a clearance associated with an IFR flight plan already filed. What you are describing sounds like what's commonly called a "pop-up" clearance which involves a pilot calling ATC for a clearance without a flight plan on file. That's a lot more work for ATC than an airborne pick-up since the controller does have to enter lots of data into the FAA computer. AFaIK, for the other all the controller has to do is key in the N# and perhaps the departure or destination identifier.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Here in the Bos-Wash corridor though, the controllers do not think very highly of folks who try to pick up clearances in the air. Better have an excuse ready on initial call up. I can't entirely blame them, since things are much busier and more congested out here. They've trained me well, that's for sure. I fly out west and I'm practically afraid to pick up in air.
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Depends on the airport. I have routinely picked up a clearance in the air off of KXSA and KHWY, both in the Potomac airspace. No RCO at either location. Never had a problem. YMMV
 
gismo said:
There seems to be some confusion regarding what this thread is about. I thought we were talking about picking up a clearance associated with an IFR flight plan already filed. What you are describing sounds like what's commonly called a "pop-up" clearance which involves a pilot calling ATC for a clearance without a flight plan on file. That's a lot more work for ATC than an airborne pick-up since the controller does have to enter lots of data into the FAA computer. AFaIK, for the other all the controller has to do is key in the N# and perhaps the departure or destination identifier.
Click to expand...
Looking back, I think you're right. I may have picked up some non-existent thread creep into the pop-up area.
 
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