PHX to SLC - East, West, or over?

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
I have a general flight planning question here. If I am planning a flight from PHX to SLC, what do I do about the grand canyon and the mountains in Southern Utah and Norther Arizona? There are a few different general routes I am looking at. (Just so everyone knows, I am going to do a mountain flying course before I attempt this.)

1) Stay to the West, get a bit closer to Las Vegas. Avoid the Grand Canyon and then stay to the West of the Mountains in Southern Utah. This would add about 80 to 100 nm over the direct path.

2) Stay to the East of the grand canyon. Stay to the East of the mountains in Southern Utah and cut over back to the West side at the I-70 interstate. This would be just pass the Hanksville Vortac. This end up being about 40 nm farther than direct. This seems like a great idea until I would have to transition the mountain pass. The bottom of the pass is about 7,500 feet or so, but the peaks are over 11k on both sides.

3) Fly right over the grand canyon. It looks like the Tuckup transition would work best for me. I'll admit, this seems pretty cool, and it ends up being the shortest route (of these three) at about 35 nm farther than direct. I'd get on the North side of the canyon, wave to the polygamists in Colorado city, then head towards cedar city and stay to the West of the mountains all the way North. This seems like the best option to me.

Any thoughts? This flight would be in an Archer III.
 
azpilot said:
I have a general flight planning question here. If I am planning a flight from PHX to SLC, what do I do about the grand canyon and the mountains in Southern Utah and Norther Arizona? There are a few different general routes I am looking at. (Just so everyone knows, I am going to do a mountain flying course before I attempt this.)

1) Stay to the West, get a bit closer to Las Vegas. Avoid the Grand Canyon and then stay to the West of the Mountains in Southern Utah. This would add about 80 to 100 nm over the direct path.

2) Stay to the East of the grand canyon. Stay to the East of the mountains in Southern Utah and cut over back to the West side at the I-70 interstate. This would be just pass the Hanksville Vortac. This end up being about 40 nm farther than direct. This seems like a great idea until I would have to transition the mountain pass. The bottom of the pass is about 7,500 feet or so, but the peaks are over 11k on both sides.

3) Fly right over the grand canyon. It looks like the Tuckup transition would work best for me. I'll admit, this seems pretty cool, and it ends up being the shortest route (of these three) at about 35 nm farther than direct. I'd get on the North side of the canyon, wave to the polygamists in Colorado city, then head towards cedar city and stay to the West of the mountains all the way North. This seems like the best option to me.

Any thoughts? This flight would be in an Archer III.
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IMHO, option 2 is the easiest. 7500 ft pass is hardly a pass at all. Out here, we call that "ground level."
 
SkyHog said:
IMHO, option 2 is the easiest. 7500 ft pass is hardly a pass at all. Out here, we call that "ground level."
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Ha!! That's a good one. I guess it's all relative right? Where do you fly out of? My home airport is KCHD. Field elevation is ~1243'. The highest I have ever flown a plane was just over 8,000 MSL on a flight up to KPAN. Like I said, I am doing the mountain course before I attempt this flight. I am sure I'll learn a lot from that.
 
Last October I Flew Michigan to Cedar City (via the south route around Colorado), then straight north to S.L.City refueling in OGD. No problems with mountains. I think we went around 11k.
 
I fly option 3 often in my 172. Once clear of the PHX airspace, I follow I-17 to Prescott, then direct to the south end of the Tuckup corridor. Exiting the corridor, direct to MATZO intersection, then follow I-15 to SLC. The terrain north and south of the Canyon is high, but reasonably flat. And it's spectacular.

Note that northbound between PRC and MATZO the appropriate VFR altitudes are even thousands +500, but in the Tuckup Corridor itself you have to be at 11,500 or 13,500 northbound. Flight Following is available on the whole route, and is recommended. Be sure you have the Grand Canyon VFR chart.

Here is some of what you'll see:

Crossing I-40:

IMG_1756.JPG


Entering the Tuckup Corridor:

IMG_1753.JPG


Crossing the river:

IMG_1741.JPG


Near MATZO:

IMG_1734.JPG
 
Wow Pilawt! That just put a massive smile on my face!!!! Thanks for sharing that! Now I don't want to wait until September!
 
azpilot said:
Ha!! That's a good one. I guess it's all relative right? Where do you fly out of? My home airport is KCHD. Field elevation is ~1243'. The highest I have ever flown a plane was just over 8,000 MSL on a flight up to KPAN. Like I said, I am doing the mountain course before I attempt this flight. I am sure I'll learn a lot from that.
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Right now, I fly out of my head.

But I am based at KFLY and formerly KABQ. Both at a little less than 6k elevation. Seriously, though, flying through Arizona is a cakewalk when it comes to terrain clearance. You won't even notice that you're flying any differently there. Colorado, on the other hand, is a bit different.
 
#3 - go over. If you're VFR, draw a straight line and figure out what deviations you need for terrain or airspace. No prob. Done it tons of times.
 
azpilot said:
Ha!! That's a good one. I guess it's all relative right? Where do you fly out of? My home airport is KCHD. Field elevation is ~1243'. The highest I have ever flown a plane was just over 8,000 MSL on a flight up to KPAN. Like I said, I am doing the mountain course before I attempt this flight. I am sure I'll learn a lot from that.
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Just curious where is this mountain course you speak of? I am getting my PPL but that seems like a good thing to do after.
 
Pilawt - wow that is incredible - I live in AZ...I can't wait to get my PPL and do something like that. That is spectacular!
 
CC268 said:
Just curious where is this mountain course you speak of? I am getting my PPL but that seems like a good thing to do after.
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Chandler Air Service requires you to complete a "Mountain Checkout" with them before they'll allow you to rent a plane and fly into an area with mountainous terrain. It consists of some ground time and a dual cross country flight from KCHD to KSEZ to KPAN and then back to KCHD. Once you have done that course, or checkout, they'll rent you a plane for flights up into the mountains. I believe this is likely an insurance requirements they have.
 
azpilot said:
Chandler Air Service requires you to complete a "Mountain Checkout" with them before they'll allow you to rent a plane and fly into an area with mountainous terrain. It consists of some ground time and a dual cross country flight from KCHD to KSEZ to KPAN and then back to KCHD. Once you have done that course, or checkout, they'll rent you a plane for flights up into the mountains. I believe this is likely an insurance requirements they have.
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Oh yea durr you told me about this before...
 
azpilot said:
Chandler Air Service requires you to complete a "Mountain Checkout" with them before they'll allow you to rent a plane and fly into an area with mountainous terrain. It consists of some ground time and a dual cross country flight from KCHD to KSEZ to KPAN and then back to KCHD. Once you have done that course, or checkout, they'll rent you a plane for flights up into the mountains. I believe this is likely an insurance requirements they have.
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That's odd, it would make much more sense to send you up to FLG while you are that close. Much better learning of density altitude up there.
 
Walboy said:
A large part of mountain flying is negotiating winds across mountain ridges. Although FLG is certainly a high altitude airport with density altitude issues, the terrain surrounding Payson and Sedona can provide the updrafts/downdrafts that can make mountain flying challenging. A high density altitude takeoff can be simulated by restricting the RPM on takeoff at KCHD to give an idea what the degraded performance is like.
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I guess. Personally, my opinion is people are more likely to hurt themselves or bend metal on a density altitude issue versus dealing with some chop coming across the Mogollon Rim. Sure, its bumpy, but it's not that big of a deal. And yes, I flew across that route 5x a week for 9 months at bugsmasher altitudes.
 
Mountain flying - both thr Colorado Pilots Assoc and thr New Mexico Pilots Assoc offer comprehensive courses. There are also a number of highly qualified CFIs that specialize in high altitude/mountain flying training. Check around the Phoenix area or Prescott or Flag for recommendations.
 
Flying the ILS into FLG one day in an Archer, (VMC) I could not stay on the glide slope due to downdrafts in the area.

It was interesting.
 
FWIW: The New Mexico Pilots Association will be holding their 2016 course in Santa Fe on the 23rd of September (classroom) with flying portions during the weekend of the 24-25th
Here is a flyer from last year's course FYI: http://www.nmpilots.org/Documents/Mountain_Flying/2015 Mtn Flying Clinic Web Announcement Posted.pdf

CONTACTS:

CLINIC COORDINATOR/QUESTIONS?
Contact Cliff
Chetwin at 720-320-6264 or
kestrelair1@gmail.com or

Cathy Myers, president NMPA at email:
nmpa@nmpilots.org
. We will follow up immediately.

(( Jeff Skiles attended last year's course and thought it was worthwhile, if that helps enthusiasm ))
 
dans2992 said:
Flying the ILS into FLG one day in an Archer, (VMC) I could not stay on the glide slope due to downdrafts in the area.

It was interesting.
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Wow! That would be scary. One of my CFI's told me a similar story. He was crossing the Mogollon rim at 2,000 AGL. He caught a really nasty down draft and couldn't climb out of it. It took him all the way down to less than 100' AGL before it 'let go of him'.
 
If my direct route took me over the Grand Canyon, I couldn't imagine not doing it (through the appropriate corridor), unless the winds were too strong for it to be safe.
 
Palmpilot said:
If my direct route took me over the Grand Canyon, I couldn't imagine not doing it (through the appropriate corridor), unless the winds were too strong for it to be safe.
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I hear ya. This question is really more for my wife than me. When I started flight training three years ago, she was scared to death I was going to die, or burn to death, or ... insert worst possible way to die ... She was indoctrinated by her mother for the first 19 years of her life that 'tiny' planes were dangerous little death traps. Since I've earned my license, I have taken both my wife and my Mother-in-law flying, but they are both still very 'nervous' flyers. I took both of them flying on different occasions when we had perfect flying conditions.

This plane crash occurred right before I started flight training. I have gotten to the point where my wife and MIL are both OK with flying, as long as it is during day time, and not around mountains.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Superstition-Mountain-killing-children.html

This flight will be giant leap of faith for my wife. It will also be a stretch for me as well. It will be the biggest aviation adventure I have ever tackled to date. More than anything I want to make this a really good experience for her, so she will remain interested in and supportive of me flying.

My wife really likes photography and the photos Pilawt shared have convinced my wife that the opportunity to take some really cool pictures will be worth it to make the trip.
 
I was visiting relatives in the Phoenix area when that crash happened. Very sad. The pilot at the controls was reportedly assigned that task at the last minute. Apparently no one bothered to draw a line on a chart (ether paper or electronic) that would miss the mountains. Night VFR requires careful planning!
 
Palmpilot said:
I was visiting relatives in the Phoenix area when that crash happened. Very sad. The pilot at the controls was reportedly assigned that task at the last minute. Apparently no one bothered to draw a line on a chart (ether paper or electronic) that would miss the mountains. Night VFR requires careful planning!
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My examiner for my private new some of the people in the plane personally. We talked quite a bit about terrain avoidance during my oral an this crash specifically. Many people unfamiliar with aviation routinely site this crash as one of the reasons they are scared of flying.
 
There actually is some rationality to that, because the general public is not equipped to assess whether the pilot engages in sound preflight planning, among other things.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was visiting relatives in the Phoenix area when that crash happened. Very sad. The pilot at the controls was reportedly assigned that task at the last minute. Apparently no one bothered to draw a line on a chart (ether paper or electronic) that would miss the mountains. Night VFR requires careful planning!
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Here's what they hit. Just a few degrees in either direction ... :(

Dsc03330.jpg
 
I heard they had plotted a course to clear the terrain based on airport direct to some waypoint.

The controller then had them fly "runway heading" for a couple miles, and cleared them on course. The pilot then probably pushed the "direct" button on the GPS....

Just what I heard...
 
According to the NTSB factual, the pilot requested an eastbound departure... but used 4,500 as his altitude. Shouldn't eastbound have been 5,500?

EDIT: Ah. Trying to remain below the PHX Bravo.
 
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dans2992 said:
I heard they had plotted a course to clear the terrain based on airport direct to some waypoint.

The controller then had them fly "runway heading" for a couple miles, and cleared them on course....
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Since they were VFR, that last part probably would have been "resume own navigation."

The pilot then probably pushed the "direct" button on the GPS....
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In a situation like that, the best strategy would probably be to stay over the city lights until they were able to intercept their planned course line.
 
Yes, good point. "Resume own navigation".
 
azpilot said:
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...-55c2-4e0d-9b69-af19aa1a4da3&pgno=1&pgsize=50
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Well, that pretty much tells the story:

"According to the pilot's brother, the pilot typically departed an airport, identified the track needed to fly directly to his destination, and turned the airplane on that track. Radar tracking data from the accident flight indicated that the airplane began its turn on course to SAD about 2 miles northeast of FFZ. Comparison of the direct line track data from FFZ to SAD with the track starting about 2 miles northeast of FFZ direct to SAD revealed that while the direct line track from FFZ to SAD passed about 3 miles south of the impact mountain, the direct track from the point 2 miles northeast of FFZ to SAD overlaid the impact mountain location. Thus, the pilot likely set on a direct course for SAD even though the delayed right turn from FFZ put the airplane on a track that intersected the mountain. The pilot did not adjust his flight track to compensate for the delayed right turn to ensure clearance from the mountain."
​
The pilot's typical practice, as described by his brother, wasn't robust enough to compensate for ATC diversions for traffic (and it wasn't even that much of a diversion). Programming the GPS or the iPad on the ground would have made it easy to re-intercept the planned route before leaving the valley. Even better would be to program an intermediate waypoint before leaving the valley, to cut things less closely:

https://skyvector.com/?ll=33.471315...2076846&chart=301&zoom=4&fpl= KFFZ VPSSS KSAD
 
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oldShar said:
FWIW: The New Mexico Pilots Association will be holding their 2016 course in Santa Fe on the 23rd of September (classroom) with flying portions during the weekend of the 24-25th
Here is a flyer from last year's course FYI: http://www.nmpilots.org/Documents/Mountain_Flying/2015 Mtn Flying Clinic Web Announcement Posted.pdf

CONTACTS:

CLINIC COORDINATOR/QUESTIONS?
Contact Cliff
Chetwin at 720-320-6264 or
kestrelair1@gmail.com or

Cathy Myers, president NMPA at email:
nmpa@nmpilots.org
. We will follow up immediately.

(( Jeff Skiles attended last year's course and thought it was worthwhile, if that helps enthusiasm ))
Click to expand...

Colorado Pilots runs 2 a year, early summer and late summer. Check the website

www.coloradopilots.org

I want to do the NMPA class later this year for a change of scenery. Every mountain range has its unique personality when flying.
 
Palmpilot said:
Well, that pretty much tells the story:

"According to the pilot's brother, the pilot typically departed an airport, identified the track needed to fly directly to his destination, and turned the airplane on that track. Radar tracking data from the accident flight indicated that the airplane began its turn on course to SAD about 2 miles northeast of FFZ. Comparison of the direct line track data from FFZ to SAD with the track starting about 2 miles northeast of FFZ direct to SAD revealed that while the direct line track from FFZ to SAD passed about 3 miles south of the impact mountain, the direct track from the point 2 miles northeast of FFZ to SAD overlaid the impact mountain location. Thus, the pilot likely set on a direct course for SAD even though the delayed right turn from FFZ put the airplane on a track that intersected the mountain. The pilot did not adjust his flight track to compensate for the delayed right turn to ensure clearance from the mountain."
​
The pilot's typical practice, as described by his brother, wasn't robust enough to compensate for ATC diversions for traffic (and it wasn't even that much of a diversion). Programming the GPS or the iPad on the ground would have made it easy to re-intercept the planned route before leaving the valley. Even better would be to program an intermediate waypoint before leaving the valley, to cut things less closely:

https://skyvector.com/?ll=33.47131553936725,-111.41601562076846&chart=301&zoom=4&fpl= KFFZ VPSSS KSAD
Click to expand...

If you go into skyvector and move that way-point to a new position inline with runway 4 and right at the airspace boundary, you'll see that the new path directly intersects the peak.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=33.505217...4&chart=301&zoom=1&fpl= KFFZ 3330N11140W KSAD

Shortly after this crash, I was discussing this accident with my dad who is a non-pilot. I was in the middle of training and had my flight bag with me. I pulled out my paper sectional and plotter and drew it all up on paper for him.

The crash is just so tragic. For me the reminder is that aviation can be very safe, when the proper precautions are taken and procedures are followed.
 
murphey said:
Colorado Pilots runs 2 a year, early summer and late summer. Check the website

www.coloradopilots.org

I want to do the NMPA class later this year for a change of scenery. Every mountain range has its unique personality when flying.
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yeahbut ---->
Guess where they do alot of the flying portion of the class ---->
back north of the border!! :)
primarily around La Veta
 
oldShar said:
yeahbut ---->
Guess where they do alot of the flying portion of the class ---->
back north of the border!! :)
primarily around La Veta
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True, but the Colorado routes are north- Granby, steamboat, vail, aspen, glenwood springs, and don't forget Leadville to get your certificate.
 
murphey said:
True, but the Colorado routes are north- Granby, steamboat, vail, aspen, glenwood springs, and don't forget Leadville to get your certificate.
Click to expand...

Going to be hard to land at Vail, the STOLport at Avon is a WalMart nowadays. :)
 
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