Pencil Whip'd Logbook Entries ...

I wonder if they revoked all certificates. That wasn't mentioned, but I realize it's an admin action and this is a criminal trial.

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TMetzinger said:
I wonder if they revoked all certificates. That wasn't mentioned, but I realize it's an admin action and this is a criminal trial.

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Found this on the FAA Airman Database:

Personal Information: FAHAD NABEEL HUSSEIN AL-DAOUS

3844 W 4TH ST UNIT 8
WATERLOO IA 50701-4511
County: BLACK HAWK
Country: USA
Medical Information: Medical Class: Third, Medical Date: 9/2009
MUST WEAR CORRECTIVE LENSES.

Certificate Information: Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT


FOR INFORMATION ON THIS AIRMAN'S CERTIFICATE YOU MUST CONTACT THE AIRMEN CERTIFICATION BRANCH
TOLL FREE AT (866) 878-2498.
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I believe that note at the end indicates that his certificate has been suspended or revoked.
 
I don't see the BIG deal. It's hard to test experience, but the dude passed his IR check ride and peer review sniffed out the BS. Prison time would have been a little much IMHO. Logbook entries don't seem to have succumbed to tons of bureaucracy yet. They're still on the honor system and it seems to work well. A group of local pilots should have given him a blanket party for doing it though.
 
Re: Pencil Whipped Logbook Entries ...

I wonder if he filled out his logbook in pencil. :D
 
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bartmc said:
I don't see the BIG deal. It's hard to test experience, but the dude passed his IR check ride and peer review sniffed out the BS. Prison time would have been a little much IMHO. Logbook entries don't seem to have succumbed to tons of bureaucracy yet. They're still on the honor system and it seems to work well. A group of local pilots should have given him a blanket party for doing it though.
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...along with a lot of other things in aviation, which is why a breach of that trust is taken so seriously by the FAA. As they said in the Air Force, "Integrity is like virginity -- either you've got it or you don't, and once you lose it, it's gone forever."
 
Why was the FBI involved? Does the FAA have their own Gestapo?
 
Logbook entries don't seem to have succumbed to tons of bureaucracy yet. They're still on the honor system and it seems to work well.
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Not true, internationally. Log entries and experience used toward certification is taken very seriously.

In many countries, for example, one is required to get endorsements or logbooks stamps at each stop on a cross country, to prove one went there.

In the US, I've known a lot of people falsify their logs, and who built their career on P51 (Parker Pen) time. It's a common practice to this day, which is why I always say that hours mean nothing. Experience means everything, and I usually know most of what I need to know about a pilot before we ever get to the airplane. Lack of experience is easily betrayed.
 
DouglasBader said:
In the US, I've known a lot of people falsify their logs, and who built their career on P51 (Parker Pen) time. It's a common practice to this day, which is why I always say that hours mean nothing. Experience means everything, and I usually know most of what I need to know about a pilot before we ever get to the airplane. Lack of experience is easily betrayed.
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I've found that most of those people get caught in some way or another. Normally it's due to their lousy airmanship.
 
This probably isn't the most PC thing to say...but

Why is it mainly eastern folks BS their logbooks to such a degree? Is it a culture thing?

Ive had some American/euro guys come up short on a x/c, go back and forth on BSing it, then ask me if they should fudge the .2! (two tenths) We would always end up double checking the hobs (hoping to find a few tenths) then re-doing the flight.

Now when I hear about some guy fudging almost 100 hours, nine times out of ten they are Indian or Paki or etc. I got no issue with eastern folks (one of my good friends is Indian actually), however I keep seeing this trend when it comes to people who lie in their logs.
 
I couldn't imagine making up or falsifying the hours in my logbook, especially when I was renting airplanes. I figured the more checks and balances there are that could negate the hours I put in my book, the more likelihood that if a check were to happen, I could lose the freedom I worked so hard to get....to earn.
 
Not that I condone it, but after all, it was a statutory law, not a mass murder.
 
I've found that most of those people get caught in some way or another.
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I worked for a company twenty years ago that had an arrogant assistant chief pilot who had a cinderalla story about working as a law enforcement officer in Los Angeles, and working his way up as a flight instructor. Everyone bought it. I never did, largely because his abilities didn't match his story. We ended up in the same group interview at another company, and the interviewer asked him about his police work. He looked down at his lap and humbly answered "I don't really like to talk about it."

The interviewer picked up on it right away. A few more questions, and Randy was dismissed from the interview. Thanks for showing up, you may go now.


I was invited to a simulator check (and subsequently offered the job). The sim was co-located with a local FBO, and while waiting for my results, I walked through the FBO, and saw a wall with all the recent flight school graduates. There was Randy, with a solo date a year before coming to work for us. Photograph and all, proudly holding his shirt tail. The rest was all lies.

Last I heard, ten years or so ago, he was flying a corporate jet, but I saw him lie his way into several assignments. All charisma, not so much ability.

Another individual showed up for a job at a small 135 operation a few years ago where I was moonlighting as a check airman. Unofficially, I was asked to give him a practice ride in a 210. We didn't make it to the airplane before I was quite certain that he wasn't what he claimed, and over the next couple of days a series of phone calls and checks bore that out. He finally came clean, then went some place else and sold himself to a different company. They never bothered to check, apparently.

I've seen a lot of them come and go. I've known quite a few who built up their career that way. I even knew a designated examiner years ago who made a point of telling new ATP-recipients to falsify their logbook in order to get a job. He'd counsel them that if their conscience bothered them, just stop logging for a thousand hours or two later on. I've known ag operators to do that, to get someone up to their insurance minimums. The first operator for whom I flew, in fact, handed me back my log and told me to return the following morning with a thousand hours of ag. I showed up at his desk with the same log with the same times, no extra added, and he asked why I hadn't done as he asked. I told him that I didn't work that way, that what I logged was done honestly, and I couldn't change that. I got hired anyway. I'd prefer to think that integrity had something to do with that. Maybe. Maybe not.

As for the Saudi students...They're well known abroad. Most return home with a guaranteed slot with Saudia Arabian Airlines, but may have to wait two or more years to get one. While I was operating in the Kingdom we were assigned one of those kids and told to use him. He was supposed to be in the Lear, but I told them no, so we put him in the right seat of a Cheyenne. Turned out he couldn't hold heading in clear weather, let alone at night or in a thunderstorm.

One day we were invited to tour a private 747 on the field, and he came along. I took his picture in the left seat. After we got done with the tour, he declared that he wouldn't fly in anything less than the 747, that anything else was beneath him.

I had an acquaintance that operated for an organization there, who was paired with a Saudi pilot. One day the Saudi captain jammed a GV between two other aircraft in an act or ignorant arrogance. In the Kingdom, the life of an unbeliever is given a value in Riyals that's half of a Muslim, and whether overt or not, that mentality always hangs in some form over the relationship between Saudis and everyone else in the Kingdom. I was never treated badly myself (though I was threatened with automatic weapons several times), but I saw more than enough of it (and a plethora of associated human rights abuses) that I've little use or respect for the Saudis.
 
MassPilot said:
Found this on the FAA Airman Database:

I believe that note at the end indicates that his certificate has been suspended or revoked.
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Not necessarily although likely in this instance, mine had that for a couple of years until I finally got a plastic card 2 years ago.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
This probably isn't the most PC thing to say...but

Why is it mainly eastern folks BS their logbooks to such a degree? Is it a culture thing?

Ive had some American/euro guys come up short on a x/c, go back and forth on BSing it, then ask me if they should fudge the .2! (two tenths) We would always end up double checking the hobs (hoping to find a few tenths) then re-doing the flight.

Now when I hear about some guy fudging almost 100 hours, nine times out of ten they are Indian or Paki or etc. I got no issue with eastern folks (one of my good friends is Indian actually), however I keep seeing this trend when it comes to people who lie in their logs.
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A lot of it has to do with their culture of taking extreme steps to save or avenge honor. I went through Air Force sensor systems tech school at Lowry AFB in 1978. There was a parallel course that was taught to Iranian airmen to qualify them to maintain the sensor systems and avionics on the platforms we sold/leased/gave to the Shah's government. On test days, they could be seen huddling together around a single desk, blatantly cheating as they completed the written exams in group-think. The instructors were fully aware of it, and didn't say a word. I asked one why, and was told that the first group of Iranian students that went through the course had almost a 60% fail rate. The students that washed out went home to public executions.

As with most military stories, there is probably some inflation of the facts here, but I can tell you that every one of the instructors believed that any Iranian student that they failed would not be long for this world. And every Iranian in the school looked like he was afraid for his life on test days.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
......A lot of it has to do with their culture of taking extreme steps to save or avenge honor........
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So they chit all over their "honor" by cheating just to save honor at home, then a generation later punish the new generation who honorably fails, for not being honorable.

Hypocrisy gets deep generation after generation I guess.

reminds me of a quote

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself for a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
 
NineThreeKilo said:
So they chit all over their "honor" by cheating just to save honor at home, then a generation later punish the new generation who honorably fails, for not being honorable.
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They were cheating in front of non-muslims. To them it would be as if I were cheating on a test in front of a dog. For them, the end absolutely justified the means.

Not to put a SZ slant on anything, but they were/are completely foreign to the western way of thinking. You can't look at them from a western mindset and understand it all. Their sense of right and wrong are nothing like ours. They can accept things that would drive an American to violence, while at the same time feel completely justified in putting someone to a brutal and painful death for things we would not even blink an eye at.
 
Re: Pencil Whipped Logbook Entries ...

DouglasBader said:
We ended up in the same group interview at another company...
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I'm curious about group interviews. How many people do they interview in a group? Do you know what the rationale is for doing it that way?

Interesting stories. Thanks for sharing them.
 
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NineThreeKilo said:
Why is it mainly eastern folks BS their logbooks to such a degree? Is it a culture thing?
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I think it's just cultural. In a lot of countries, breaking the law is just part of life. When a cop stops you, it's expected right off the bat by both the cop and the person being stopped that a bribe is about to take place.

America, and most western countries are very much driven by laws. Other countries not so much.

So if you grew up in a country where it was just something you did, you feel your competent enough now for the next level, and the only thing standing in your way is some chicken scratch in a book...

That's just to tempting a pass up, I would suspect.
 
Mafoo said:
I think it's just cultural. In a lot of countries, breaking the law is just part of life. When a cop stops you, it's expected right off the bat by both the cop and the person being stopped that a bribe is about to take place.

America, and most western countries are very much driven by laws. Other countries not so much.

So if you grew up in a country where it was just something you did, you feel your competent enough now for the next level, and the only thing standing in your way is some chicken scratch in a book...

That's just to tempting a pass up, I would suspect.
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I guess the Department of Justice is trying to make it less tempting.
 
Re: Pencil Whipped Logbook Entries ...

Palmpilot said:
I'm curious about group interviews. How many people do they interview in a group? Do you know what the rationale is for doing it that way?
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The rational is that your people are too valuable to waste time in an interview. So, you interview a bunch of people at once and get it over with.

The other rational is that you make better decisions by seeing a bunch of candidates together.
 
I've seen group interviews for other "team" type jobs. It helps bring out personality traits that can matter in an environment like an airline cockpit that might not show up in a one-on-one interview.
 
Group interviews are also done for jobs where the hiring minimums are "show up".
 
I'm curious about group interviews. How many people do they interview in a group? Do you know what the rationale is for doing it that way?
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Group interviews are usually one step of an interview process. Some companies have more extensive processes than others.


In the group I mentioned, I think there were six of us. Everyone was interviewed separately, as well as a group, with individual sim exams being given to each.

I've attended other interviews that involved a group meeting of about 30 applicants, then panel interviews with one applicant vs. 3 or 4 captain-check airmen on the panel, then one-on-one interviews, a sim check, a psychological test and aptitude test, and a written test covering aeronautical knowledge. Not uncommonly, such interviews also utilize company personnel driving a van who report back on the interaction among the applicants in the van, or at the hotel.

Cathay Pacific used to have two separate interviews, and on the second interview, the applicant was encouraged to return to Hong Kong with his or her spouse. The spouse was invited to a cocktail party with the other applicants one evening. The purpose of the cocktail party was to evaluate the applicants' interaction with each other and with their spouses, and to evaluate the spouse (because Cathay required the applicant to move to Hong Kong).

Group interviews give an opportunity to evaluate the individuals together, side by side for comparison, and also to gauge interaction. Often sim checks are given with two applicants in an unfamiliar aircraft, who then switch places from right seat to left. Sometimes just one applicant and a check airman in the other seat. Part of the dynamic is to look for the way the applicant interacts with other crew.
 
Did a group interview today. It adds stress and that can be used to judge a number of things for an operations role.

Any role, really... but in near real-time jobs, you can't usually excuse yourself and walk off to a quiet place to think about the problem, so a group interview partially simulates that feeling you may or may not have with ten people looking over your shoulder waiting on you to fix a critical system.

After a long time doing it, neither the looking over the shoulder nor the group interview are any big deal... and it's really easy to de-rail a group interview given by folks without a goal in mind, into a socialization session.
 
Tom-D said:
Or.... he has elected to not make his records public. which we all can do.
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That will not generate the red warning under discussion, and you can't make all your airman database information private, just some things like addresses. There really are only two reasons they put that red warning on your database entry -- currently under suspension or revocation, or some action against your certificate(s) is pending. That's it. If you need confirmation of that, call the Airman Registry at the number in the warning and ask them.
 
Ron Levy said:
That will not generate the red warning under discussion, and you can't make all your airman database information private, just some things like addresses. There really are only two reasons they put that red warning on your database entry -- currently under suspension or revocation, or some action against your certificate(s) is pending. That's it. If you need confirmation of that, call the Airman Registry at the number in the warning and ask them.
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Once again I will point out that is incorrect. Mine had that for years because I hadn't upgraded from a paper ticket to a plastic card. I didn't upgrade until they told me my paper cert would no longer be valid at which time I got my MES and was issued a plastic cert.

One day you're gonna come up with some BS like that and get sued for it, I considered suing you last time you said it.
 
Henning said:
Once again I will point out that is incorrect. Mine had that for years because I hadn't upgraded from a paper ticket to a plastic card. I didn't upgrade until they told me my paper cert would no longer be valid at which time I got my MES and was issued a plastic cert.

One day you're gonna come up with some BS like that and get sued for it, I considered suing you last time you said it.
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So you're saying the FAA is lying about what it means? Sue them, not me. And remember that you just said you had a certificate which was no longer valid.
 
Ron Levy said:
So you're saying the FAA is lying about what it means? Sue them, not me. And remember that you just said you had a certificate which was no longer valid.
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My certificate was fully valid until the last day I used it. I just hadn't traded it for plastic until they told me I had to as Inwas waiting for them to do the picture ID. I am saying that you are giving incomplete information as author active fact which could cAuse a loss which is defamation of character. Even if I lost, the suit would cost me next to nothing and you a minimum of $10k to defend.
 
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Henning said:
Once again I will point out that is incorrect. Mine had that for years because I hadn't upgraded from a paper ticket to a plastic card. I didn't upgrade until they told me my paper cert would no longer be valid at which time I got my MES and was issued a plastic cert.
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I just looked up a couple dead pilots. One had a certificate data of 1962 so I'm pretty sure it was still paper. But it didn't have any extra "you must contact..." stuff.

And, my address has come and gone without me asking to have it excluded or anything.

I think the key is that the data base is, in general, pretty buggie. Take what you read in it with a grain of salt.
 
> I considered suing you last time you said it.

Set the beer down. Walk away from the keyboard.
 
Henning said:
My certificate was fully valid until the last day I used it. I just hadn't traded it for plastic until they told me I had to as Inwas waiting for them to do the picture ID. I am saying that you are giving incomplete information as author active fact which could cAuse a loss which is defamation of character. Even if I lost, the suit would cost me next to nothing and you a minimum of $10k to defend.
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Really? You are walking a fine line between internet moron and troll status, and teetering on the bad edge.
 
Ron Levy said:
There really are only two reasons they put that red warning on your database entry -- currently under suspension or revocation, or some action against your certificate(s) is pending. That's it. If you need confirmation of that, call the Airman Registry at the number in the warning and ask them.
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That is not entirely true.

A friend of mine has that same red label on his info in the database. He flies for a major carrier and just recently (month ago) upgraded to Captain and added a new type. While he had an action pending, or at least was under review by the FAA a few years ago, he is not currently under action or pending action......but the red label remains.




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