Pattern Work Question

[MDeitch1976]

I was doing some solo pattern work yesterday evening.
This is in a Piper Sport LSA.
I was landing on RWY 14, and the winds were from 080 @ 3 on the ground, definitely more significant up above 500AGL.

My turns from base to final had the feeling of a forward slip(Which to this point has only been demonstrated to me). Airspeed still 65 knots, had not slowed to my 60 knots final, flaps not down to their final setting yet, at 20*. My bank was less than 30*.

Was this due to the fact that the wind was from 080? Once on final, and wings level, a little crab for the crosswind, and everything was fine. Just trying to make sense of a new "seat of the pants" feeling on that turn to base?

 

[denverpilot]

Left pattern?

Base to final you were being blown downwind on base and during the turn.

As long as you kept it coordinated, the view would be that the turn is taking "longer" than you're used to.

Did you overshoot and end up on the right side of the runway every time?

To counteract the wind, you have to start the turn sooner and perhaps widen your pattern out to the East further so the turn can take more time/space as you move West with the airmass.

There's a temptation to stomp on the inside rudder pedal and steepen the turn when overshooting. Don't fall for that trap.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Yes, Left Pattern.
And, Yes, overshot 3 out of 7.

I was checking my turn coordinator, and my turns were coordinated. I didn't want to turn any steeper because of the sinking feeling.

I was widening my pattern, and crabbing into the wind on downwind, but the wind was stronger than anticipated, and pushing me towards the the west.

 

[denverpilot]

You were "downwind" on both the downwind and the base. It definitely feels different at first because the groundspeed toward the runway increases for the power setting that will hold your desired airspeed.

3 out of 7 for not having seen it before isn't too bad. Sounds like you were adjusting well if the ball was centered and your airspeed was right. At that point your eyeballs are seeing something different than they've gotten used to.

After a while, you notice it on the downwind leg that you're being blown toward the runway and you crab enough to stop that or even reverse it if the wind blew you in too close to make the turn. The "sinking" feeling is due to how long the turn is taking over the ground (even though you're turning at your usual rate in the airmass).

Discuss with your instructor, but it sounds like you did fine. Just looks and feels slightly different. As long as you didn't feel like your rear end was sliding toward the inside or outside of the turn and that ball was centered, you're good.

Later if you do any ops at airports with parallel runways you'll see how important it is not to overshoot. A jet coming down final next to you will motivate you to stay on "your side".

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm thinking two things.

First, you might want to do some more practice on your rectangular pattern ground reference maneuver to get a better visualization of the effect of wind on your path over the ground during turns. Doing that in isolation rather than while trying to worry about your landing approach may make it easier to better understand that.

Second, it seems odd to me that your instructor would allow you to solo without having performed slips to a landings rather than having just observed them. That is especially disturbing since slips to a landing are a required item before solo in an airplane per 61.87(d) (item 14, to be exact). You might want to get back with your instructor to fill that gap.

 

[Mike5250]

Forward slips would be really good to work on before you solo more. It's not necessarily needed for your pattern work but if you need to land with an engine out in a tight location the slip may help.

Winds aloft forecast might help even though you won't be near 3k,6k etc in the pattern.

 

[Jaybird180]

I'm thinking two things.

First, you might want to do some more practice on your rectangular pattern ground reference maneuver to get a better visualization of the effect of wind on your path over the ground during turns. Doing that in isolation rather than while trying to worry about your landing approach may make it easier to better understand that.

Second, it seems odd to me that your instructor would allow you to solo without having performed slips to a landings rather than having just observed them. That is especially disturbing since slips to a landing are a required item before solo in an airplane per 61.87(d) (item 14, to be exact). You might want to get back with your instructor to fill that gap.

I'm wondering if Matt is working with my old Primary Instructor

 

[MDeitch1976]

I'm thinking two things.

First, you might want to do some more practice on your rectangular pattern ground reference maneuver to get a better visualization of the effect of wind on your path over the ground during turns. Doing that in isolation rather than while trying to worry about your landing approach may make it easier to better understand that.

Second, it seems odd to me that your instructor would allow you to solo without having performed slips to a landings rather than having just observed them. That is especially disturbing since slips to a landing are a required item before solo in an airplane per 61.87(d) (item 14, to be exact). You might want to get back with your instructor to fill that gap.

Ron, I have switched to a new instructor. I guess all the information has not carried over. I went out with the new instructor, and when we came in I greased my landing, and he already saw that I was endorsed for Solo in the pattern. I will have a discussion with him, and we can go work on these. He wanted to go out and review stalls, slow flight, ground reference, and steep turns. He wants me to get me to the point to solo out in the practice area outside the SFRA, before I do my Solo XC. Apparently, my old instructor was a little off with the school syllabus, and I should have had a few more hours of solo time at this point.

Hopefully, this weekend will help correct some issues, and I will learn slips.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Forward slips would be really good to work on before you solo more. It's not necessarily needed for your pattern work but if you need to land with an engine out in a tight location the slip may help.

Winds aloft forecast might help even though you won't be near 3k,6k etc in the pattern.

I will check the winds aloft next time before solo pattern work. I was hoping to learn Slips with my old instructor, but he was out the door pretty quickly.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I'm wondering if Matt is working with my old Primary Instructor

If I was, not any more.
Did you have this same issue Jay?

 

[alfadog]

Talk to yourself during the pattern; downwind is a good time to figure out how the wind will affect you on base and final. "OK, I will have a tailwind on base. That means I want my downwind to base turn relatively steep so that I get wings level on base and can judge my turn to final." Etc. Try that if you are not already doing it. I started doing that when learning the Luscombe is stiff crosswinds.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Talk to yourself during the pattern; downwind is a good time to figure out how the wind will affect you on base and final. "OK, I will have a tailwind on base. That means I want my downwind to base turn relatively steep so that I get wings level on base and can judge my turn to final." Etc. Try that if you are not already doing it. I started doing that when learning the Luscombe is stiff crosswinds.

I was talking to myself starting with my turn to Crosswind. Turn less than 90 because of the upwind, then because I knew I from the first landing I needed a wider downwind, fly a longer crosswind to downwind. On Downwind, was saying to myself "correction into wind". Which obviously, I needed more. I definitely wasn't used to the higher ground speed from the tailwind on base.

Apparently, I need more practice as Ron has said with my rectangular pattern.

 

[Jaybird180]

I will check the winds aloft next time before solo pattern work. I was hoping to learn Slips with my old instructor, but he was out the door pretty quickly.

I see this as a distraction

Talk to yourself during the pattern; downwind is a good time to figure out how the wind will affect you on base and final. "OK, I will have a tailwind on base. That means I want my downwind to base turn relatively steep so that I get wings level on base and can judge my turn to final." Etc. Try that if you are not already doing it. I started doing that when learning the Luscombe is stiff crosswinds.

See my above comment. Just do what you need to do to make the downwind parallel with the runway, base perpendicular; every landing is different. Don't think about it so much, just do it.

If I was, not any more.
Did you have this same issue Jay?

The guy didn't follow the syllabus and had a justification why he did things "his way". I only knew that I wanted a new instructor but didn't understand the handicap he was making for me until I got the new instructor. You don't know what you don't know.

 

[poadeleted20]

I see this as a distraction

Legally, I see that as becoming familiar with all available information pertinent to the flight, and practically, I see that as obtaining very useful information. Having a rough idea where to start always makes it easier to fine-tune.

 

[alfadog]

See my above comment. Just do what you need to do to make the downwind parallel with the runway, base perpendicular; every landing is different. Don't think about it so much, just do it.

Sorry, don't buy it. Same as "just fly the airplane". B*lls*it, if I may be blunt. A student doesn't need "just do it" (OK, a bit of that is OK but not when he has a question). I am so thankful that I found an instructor to do my tw endorsement that would never say that sort of stuff. He was always spot-on and specific in what I needed to do to improve.

 

[Jaybird180]

Legally, I see that as becoming familiar with all available information pertinent to the flight, and practically, I see that as obtaining very useful information. Having a rough idea where to start always makes it easier to fine-tune.

Winds aloft start at 3,000 sir. Pattern is at 1,000.

 

[Jaybird180]

Sorry, don't buy it. Same as "just fly the airplane". B*lls*it, if I may be blunt. A student doesn't need "just do it" (OK, a bit of that is OK but not when he has a question). I am so thankful that I found an instructor to do my tw endorsement that would never say that sort of stuff. He was always spot-on and specific in what I needed to do to improve.

In the time it takes to evaluate (remember winds are shifty and gusty) you may miss the timing to turn final due to distraction.

To borrow an analogy from Keith Code, you're asking him to spend 8 of his $10 of attention on winds.

I said what I did because he's thinking about the airplane crabbing on final. That's only relevant to give an indication of windspeed and direction, but it doesn't need thought, because the airplane weathervanes into the wind sans correction.

Prior to touchdown, he will need to 'just do it' (Xwind correction) to get aligned and remove any side-loading.

 

[alfadog]

I was talking to myself starting with my turn to Crosswind. Turn less than 90 because of the upwind, then because I knew I from the first landing I needed a wider downwind, fly a longer crosswind to downwind. On Downwind, was saying to myself "correction into wind". Which obviously, I needed more. I definitely wasn't used to the higher ground speed from the tailwind on base.

Apparently, I need more practice as Ron has said with my rectangular pattern.

Good, keep it up. Yes, work on the pattern. Hopefully you have some reference lines like roads or canals (we have a lot of canals here) that will help you judge your ground track in the pattern. Also, on downwind you have the wing or strut as a reference. My tw instructor would say "force yourself" a lot. It is easy to get sloppy. Sometimes we have to force ourselves not to.

 

[alfadog]

In the time it takes to evaluate (remember winds are shifty and gusty) you may miss the timing to turn final due to distraction.

To borrow an analogy from Keith Code, you're asking him to spend 8 of his $10 of attention on winds.

I said what I did because he's thinking about the airplane crabbing on final. That's only relevant to give an indication of windspeed and direction, but it doesn't need thought, because the airplane weathervanes into the wind sans correction.

Prior to touchdown, he will need to 'just do it' (Xwind correction) to get aligned and remove any side-loading.

I have all of Code's books, BTW. Used to know one of his instructors also. Never got around to taking his course, though.

I disagree. One thing I learned getting my tw endorsement is to always consider the wind. And by consider, I mean think about. It doesn't take much time to "think about" but I am cognizant of my wind and how it will affect my turns and my glides. And that is whether I am in the Luscombe or the Arrow or the Cessna.

 

[Jaybird180]

I have all of Code's books, BTW. Used to know one of his instructors also. Never got around to taking his course, though.

I haven't yet purchased the new DVD. I've taken Levels 1&2, have a photo with him and autograph, and have sat at dinner with he and his Chief Worldwide Riding Coach. Good we have something in common there.

I disagree. One thing I learned getting my tw endorsement is to always consider the wind. And by consider, I mean think about. It doesn't take much time to "think about" but I am cognizant of my wind and how it will affect my turns and my glides. And that is whether I am in the Luscombe or the Arrow or the Cessna.

I consider your response lucid, but IMO not applicable to this particular situation and perhaps this student (having met with him in the past). I will be more careful with generalities in the future.

 

[alfadog]

I haven't yet purchased the new DVD. I've taken Levels 1&2, have a photo with him and autograph, and have sat at dinner with he and his Chief Worldwide Riding Coach. Good we have something in common there.

I consider your response lucid, but IMO not applicable to this particular situation and perhaps this student (having met with him in the past). I will be more careful with generalities in the future.

I am sure we have plenty in common. I also have a big thing in common with Code.

Don't know the student and certainly some can overthink stuff but learning what the winds do is important. BTW, aircraft do not weathervane unless that have ground contact - otherwise you cannot generate that yawing moment. So crab does not happen on its own. For me it helps also on final to review what I am going to do, which wing is going down, which rudder. And hold those thoughts. Maybe it is a senior thing. LOL.

 

[Jaybird180]

Don't know the student and certainly some can overthink stuff but learning what the winds do is important. BTW, aircraft do not weathervane unless that have ground contact - otherwise you cannot generate that yawing moment. So crab does not happen on its own. For me it helps also on final to review what I am going to do, which wing is going down, which rudder. And hold those thoughts. Maybe it is a senior thing. LOL.

Go take a look at a youtube of xwind landings and then share your observations. Try the one where they weren't correcting for the winds. Observe longitudinal orientation.

 

[Jaybird180]

I am sure we have plenty in common. I also have a big thing in common with Code.

Don't tell me you're siamese twins joined at the hip, cause I don't remember seeing you there

 

[alfadog]

Go take a look at a youtube of xwind landings and then share your observations. Try the one where they weren't correcting for the winds. Observe longitudinal orientation.

Don't have to. What makes an airplane yaw into the wind? What combination of forces? Remember all rotation requires a force couple, i.e. two opposite forces acting on an axis of rotation.

 

[Jaybird180]

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45543

is the thread for that discussion. I'm reading it now.

 

[alfadog]

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45543

is the thread for that discussion. I'm reading it now.

Imagine you turn final and are pointed straight at the runway. You find yourself drifting right (tailwind on base, left traffic). Are you going to wait for the airplane to weathervane on its own? Or are you going to turn, fly back to runway, then establish a crab?

 

[Jaybird180]

Imagine you turn final and are pointed straight at the runway. You find yourself drifting right (tailwind on base, left traffic). Are you going to wait for the airplane to weathervane on its own? Or are you going to turn, fly back to runway, then establish a crab?

Well, I previously assumed that I missed the centerline rollout point CORRECTED for the winds and I just FIX IT.

However, considering that we have the delay created by inertia and that the aircraft is likely changing speeds, configuration, etc any weathervaning correction that may be 'natural' could be delayed enough to cause the pilot to HAVE to make a correction.

 

[alfadog]

Well, I previously assumed that I missed the centerline rollout point CORRECTED for the winds and I just FIX IT.

However, considering that we have the delay created by inertia and that the aircraft is likely changing speeds, configuration, etc any weathervaning correction that may be 'natural' could be delayed enough to cause the pilot to HAVE to make a correction.

More of the "just do it"? I am sure that Keith Code does not sit you on a bike and say "just ride it". LOL.

The "weathervaning" in the air is nonexistent so you would wait a long time for that to help you out.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Good, keep it up. Yes, work on the pattern. Hopefully you have some reference lines like roads or canals (we have a lot of canals here) that will help you judge your ground track in the pattern. Also, on downwind you have the wing or strut as a reference. My tw instructor would say "force yourself" a lot. It is easy to get sloppy. Sometimes we have to force ourselves not to.

At GAI, I have been using(taught) to fly between the two Churches. Pretty sizable buildings. I even flew beyond them for my downwind, and this was still not enough. This day I chose to fly the plane with steam gauges. Normally, I use one of the planes with the glass cockpit, that have a wind direction and speed on them. This might have helped me out, but it is probably best to be able to learn to adjust by visual reference, thus VFR.

 

[MDeitch1976]

In the time it takes to evaluate (remember winds are shifty and gusty) you may miss the timing to turn final due to distraction.

To borrow an analogy from Keith Code, you're asking him to spend 8 of his $10 of attention on winds.

I said what I did because he's thinking about the airplane crabbing on final. That's only relevant to give an indication of windspeed and direction, but it doesn't need thought, because the airplane weathervanes into the wind sans correction.

Prior to touchdown, he will need to 'just do it' (Xwind correction) to get aligned and remove any side-loading.

On this evening out, downwind I was being pushed towards the runway, and obviously had nowhere near the amount of WCA needed. What was really bothering me, other than several times overshooting the runway, was that base to final turn. I had a new feeling of sinking, during the turn. Looking at my turn coordinator, and airspeed, I was not seeing a reasoning for this. I was wondering if the winds were causing this?

 

[Jaybird180]

The "weathervaning" in the air is nonexistent so you would wait a long time for that to help you out.

We agree on the result being that you would wait a long time. I am not yet in agreement that weathervaning does not exist.

More of the "just do it"? I am sure that Keith Code does not sit you on a bike and say "just ride it". LOL.

Not what I was implying. In the pattern when I need to correct, I bank with aileron and coordinated rudder to bring me back to centerline at using an intercept that would be about the short final or over the fence point. IOW, I get the nose pointed at the threshold. Due to other execution errors (causing the need for correction to begin with) I cannot otherwise explain the requirement.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Another thought/question?
IF the winds aloft, and the winds closer to the surface are in general close to the same heading, but winds aloft are high, and the winds below are slower, would this create anything noticeable in flight, or in a turn while crossing the merge point? Or, would this only be a problem if the winds were at much different directions?

 

[alfadog]

We agree on the result being that you would wait a long time. I am not yet in agreement that weathervaning does not exist.

Whether some degree of wind shear would cause some degree of yaw in any appreciable amount of time might be an interesting theoretical discussion, I cannot see how it has any real effect on how you fly the airplane.

Not what I was implying. In the pattern when I need to correct, I bank with aileron and coordinated rudder to bring me back to centerline at using an intercept that would be about the short final or over the fence point. IOW, I get the nose pointed at the threshold. Due to other execution errors (causing the need for correction to begin with) I cannot otherwise explain the requirement.

See that is a different exposition from "just fix it". This one answers a question, the other does not.

 

[alfadog]

Another thought/question?
IF the winds aloft, and the winds closer to the surface are in general close to the same heading, but winds aloft are high, and the winds below are slower, would this create anything noticeable in flight, or in a turn while crossing the merge point? Or, would this only be a problem if the winds were at much different directions?

Some of the CFIs will chime in hopefully but the way I understand it that ground friction will turn the wind from parallel to the isobars (ccw around a low) at altitude above the planetary boundary layer to more nearly directly toward the low near the surface. So if you are holding a correction higher up you might find that much less correction is needed lower down. You can also get shadowing and channeling effects of the wind lower down in addition to localized wind effects. What this means is that you deal with the wind you find when you find it. This is where my tailwheel training helped me a lot. The Luscombe does not let you forget about the wind and you perforce build the necessary stick and rudder skill to deal with it.

 

[Addicted2climbing]

No forward slip practice and your doing pattern work? That seems a bit Dicey. I am at the same point as you in my training working on pattern work before I go to the XC phase, and we got the slip training out of the way early on. Even landing no flaps in the 172 and slipping all the way in.. Just for fun, sometimes my instructor will tell me last minute..no flaps...

What if you are requested to keep it in tight when you are cleared to land? In that case chances are you will have to slip on base and final to get down.. Although you can always turn down the request...

I fly at KVNY with parallel runways so I tend to undershoot a bit to keep from crossing over, or if I have the time and ATC is not busy, I extend my downwind a bit to give me time to adjust if I find out I roundout to final a bit to the side...

 

[MDeitch1976]

No forward slip practice and your doing pattern work? That seems a bit Dicey. I am at the same point as you in my training working on pattern work before I go to the XC phase, and we got the slip training out of the way early on. Even landing no flaps in the 172 and slipping all the way in.. Just for fun, sometimes my instructor will tell me last minute..no flaps...

What if you are requested to keep it in tight when you are cleared to land? In that case chances are you will have to slip on base and final to get down.. Although you can always turn down the request...

I fly at KVNY with parallel runways so I tend to undershoot a bit to keep from crossing over, or if I have the time and ATC is not busy, I extend my downwind a bit to give me time to adjust if I find out I roundout to final a bit to the side...

I have learned landing with no flaps. Slips, are the only thing I haven't learned. I fly at an uncontrolled airport. If a controller asked me to keep it tight(haven't flown solo xc for this to happen), I would just say "unable".

I just know I am going to get beat up over saying "Slips are the only thing I haven't learned." Don't read to far into that people.

 

[poadeleted20]

Winds aloft start at 3,000 sir. Pattern is at 1,000.

Next time we meet, we'll do some review on wind patterns versus altitude.

 

[poadeleted20]

At GAI, I have been using(taught) to fly between the two Churches.

You need to learn how to use aircraft-based references so when you go somewhere they didn't put two churches on either side of the downwind leg you can still put yourself in the right place.

 

[MDeitch1976]

You need to learn how to use aircraft-based references so when you go somewhere they didn't put two churches on either side of the downwind leg you can still put yourself in the right place.

What type of training would I be asking my instructor to show me here? Or is there a technique to use I during soloing?

 

[poadeleted20]

What type of training would I be asking my instructor to show me here? Or is there a technique to use I during soloing?

There are a lot of ways to do this depending on the plane's construction. Each plane will have its own set of references to put you the 3/4 mile or so you want to be abeam the runway in a light single. On a Cessna 172, for example, at 1000 TPA I put the runway halfway up the strut. On an AA-5-series, I put the runway through second band out on the wing. Next time you go up solo, when you line up between the churches, see where the runway cuts through the wing on your Sportcruiser (that's a low-wing plane, right?), and try using that instead. Then, if it works right, use that for flying the pattern at DMW or FDK or wherever you go next time other than GAI. Note that it may be a little different for left versus right traffic, but not enough to really matter.