Pattern Width on Downwind

Again, no data to support this other OWT.

Here is what Lycoming says, FWIW

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/tips-advice/key-reprints/pdfs/Key Operations.pdf

Tale Number One — "The most likely time for an engine failure to occur is at the first power reduction after take-off."

Every individual who pilots an aircraft has probably heard this statement at some time. Is it a true statement? We will venture a guess and say that perhaps it may have been at some time in the distant past.

Several years ago, this question was asked of me and it led to questioning some FAA employees and a number of other pilots about where the justification for this statement might be found. After several weeks of poking into this subject, it was finally necessary to conclude that we could find no justification — that it was simply an "Old Wives’ Tale."

A letter which recently came from a Flyer reader takes this one step further. First, it appears that there are many who continue to repeat this tale. This caused our reader to delve into the subject a little deeper — perhaps a little more scientifically than I did. Our reader studied a computer readout which had data on incidents of engine failure over a recent three-year period. Based on the material in that report, this reader concluded that engine failures during takeoff are quite rare, and that failures during cruise are far more common. This does seem logical since the engines of fixed-wing aircraft run a majority of their operating life in the cruise-power range.

Our reader also had a very believable theory about how this tale may have gotten started. He wrote, "It seems likely to me that this idea got started when twin-engine flight instructors would simulate an engine out during takeoff — right about the time the student put his hand on the prop control to reduce power. Gradually, the idea was propagated that this was the most likely time for an engine failure, when in reality it was a likely time for an instructor to simulate a failure."

From these two searches for justification — with none being found in either case, I believe it is fair to conclude that "the idea of an engine failure being most likely to occur at the first power reduction after takeoff" is, in fact, an old wives’ tale. For the sake of safety, lets stop repeating this false tale and start promoting the idea that we should be ready to deal with power failure at any time. (emphasis added)
 
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Who teaches sim all day? Why does somebody else's choice of pattern size/speed affect your safety?

PS: If you're referring to me, most of my flying is tail-dragger at grass strip with numerous other airplanes. I've only been doing it for 50+ years, so probably don't have your level of experience, but so far I've had much more problem with ATC control of airport traffic flow than with individual pilots.

I don't show up and tell anyone how to fly. Its easy to not understand when you sit teaching sims all day. But when somebody else's pattern affects my safety I have a problem with it as anyone should. Or do you not think about that stuff?
 
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+1. Most people watching you bring that Pitts in would seriously think you are batsh!t crazy. :sigh:

Uhhhh, just so we're clear that neither presupposes the other. Just because he lands like that doesn't mean he's not seriously batsh-t crazy either.:rolleyes:;)
 
Who teaches sim all day? Why does somebody else's choice of pattern size/speed affect your safety?

PS: If you're referring to me, most of my flying is tail-dragger at grass strip with numerous other airplanes. I've only been doing it for 50+ years, so probably don't have your level of experience, but so far I've had much more problem with ATC control of airport traffic flow than with individual pilots.

I wasn't pointing fingers at your or accusing you. I was speaking more in a generality.
 
OK, so I am still going to fly the pattern width that best suits me, and the plane I am in. I try not to go to wide, and I try not to get so close that my base is just part of a continuous turn.

I'm sorry if my plane is slower then yours. If you can get around me, let me know, so I am expecting it. I know I am slower then most people, so depending where I am in the pattern, I will probably let you cut in when entering the pattern. If end up extending my downwind because of someone else on base or in front of me, it does happen. My longer final is going to take longer, and I will get off the runway as fast as I can without going fast enough as to start flying again.

Sorry, I haven't been signed off for cross country yet, so I can not leave the pattern. If you can not work with me or other pilots, then please exit the pattern and re enter when myself and others are out of your way.
 
Who teaches sim all day? Why does somebody else's choice of pattern size/speed affect your safety?

PS: If you're referring to me, most of my flying is tail-dragger at grass strip with numerous other airplanes. I've only been doing it for 50+ years, so probably don't have your level of experience, but so far I've had much more problem with ATC control of airport traffic flow than with individual pilots.


Hey Wayne, what do you have in the panel of your 180?
 
So the 2008 Pitts S2C I fly is not airworthy because it glides like a rock tied to another rock when the engine takes a dump?

No my point is that you shouldn't fly behind an engine you don't trust. If the shoe fits wear it, if not don't scream ouch cause it's your own darned fault.
 
You're missing the point. Engine failures are statistically more probable in the pattern than in cruise. It's about minimizing your exposure, not that there's something wrong with the airplane. Why NOT fly within gliding distance? What does it cost you? Nothing.

This thinking is the reason I modified my pattern. It WAS the cause of my being too close on downwind and the subject of this post. Thank you for helping me rediscover this data.

FWIW, it has also caused me a scare or 2 with the stall horn in the pattern. Be careful what you teach low time pilots. I'm thankful that I took time to think, hypothesize, reevaluate assumptions and try something new, but I'm done with close-in patterns. Matt's praise of my flying yesterday is testament to that.

Thanks PoA.
 
Errant assumption sir. I'd been trying to land the SP the way I'd been doing the P and it's not the same.

Nope. I've heard pilots of Bonanzas, Cessnas, LSAs, ad naseum tell me how the airplane "doesn't fly/land/[whatever] well with full flaps."

Then I demonstrate contrariwise and the excuses cease.
 
It lands fine, but its the finer control that works better by delaying flap deployment. I'm still experimenting with the technique.
 
OK, so I am still going to fly the pattern width that best suits me, and the plane I am in. I try not to go to wide, and I try not to get so close that my base is just part of a continuous turn.

I'm sorry if my plane is slower then yours. If you can get around me, let me know, so I am expecting it. I know I am slower then most people, so depending where I am in the pattern, I will probably let you cut in when entering the pattern. If end up extending my downwind because of someone else on base or in front of me, it does happen. My longer final is going to take longer, and I will get off the runway as fast as I can without going fast enough as to start flying again.

Sorry, I haven't been signed off for cross country yet, so I can not leave the pattern. If you can not work with me or other pilots, then please exit the pattern and re enter when myself and others are out of your way.
You got my vote, Matt. :thumbsup:
 
Bunch of dials and gages along with a big-honker glove box.


That's it? Strictly old school Cessna 385/ Kx 170B stuff? That's cool, as my examiner said to me when I showed up for IR with a single Kx170B and KR87<?> ADF; "You got balls".
 
Nope. I've heard pilots of Bonanzas, Cessnas, LSAs, ad naseum tell me how the airplane "doesn't fly/land/[whatever] well with full flaps."

Then I demonstrate contrariwise and the excuses cease.

But full flaps cause a frightening descent rate. ;)
 
That's it? Strictly old school Cessna 385/ Kx 170B stuff? That's cool, as my examiner said to me when I showed up for IR with a single Kx170B and KR87<?> ADF; "You got balls".

Yep, pretty much like it was delivered. Other than the big motor, long range tanks, expanded baggage, shoulder harnesses, 6-pack panel, 430W, Stec 30A and EI analyzer/fuel flow and a few other goodies.


Gyro  Dragger.jpg
 
Yep, pretty much like it was delivered. Other than the big motor, long range tanks, expanded baggage, shoulder harnesses, 6-pack panel, 430W, Stec 30A and EI analyzer/fuel flow and a few other goodies.


View attachment 25842


That's not old school with a 430W and S/TEC plus flip flop, shoulder harnesses are super nice though.
 
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Some schools are older than others. So are the alums.

That's not old school with a 430W and S/TEC plus flip flop, shoulder harnesses are super nice though.
 
Some schools are older than others. So are the alums.

Lol, did you get the pull out bar for the tail from BAS? It can be a back saver. I learned it and rode it as old school as you can get, my II was QB; even so I will always buy the technological advantage, as did you. You bought it in an autopilot, I bought it in information displayed. Kinda funny considering you've got the down low plane optimized for on top where as I have the on top airplane optimized for down under.
 
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On day one. Convenience is secondary on the 180's. Providing a pressure point other than the L/D of the trimmable stab is primary.

Lol, did you get the pull out bar for the tail from BAS? It can be a back saver.
 
Nice! Like the cream colored panel overlay. Looks sharp.

OK, here's what everybody needs to know if they're thinking about powder-coating their panel.

The lawn furniture repair companies paint a batch of it every third-fourth day, alternating between white, black, tan and putty. If you like any of those colors, they will throw your panel in with the chairs and chaise lounges and it will come out looking fine and cost will be negligible. The color you're looking at is putty, total cost was $30.

Us high-roller Okies are known for being big spenders.
 
You got my vote, Matt. :thumbsup:

Thank you Ron.

I wish I new why there was so much tension in the pattern? There could be several reasons people may be doing something someone else doesn't approve of. Maybe, practicing something at a specific time is not correct. I think of the second time I went out soloing. I was all by myself in the pattern, less the few aircraft taking off, and departing the pattern. I signaled to my instructor I am going for one more lap. Turned crosswind, and suddenly it became very busy. My instructor was happy with how well I communicated with other aircraft joining the pattern. Everyone coming in was faster then me. I allowed advised a malibu he was faster then myself, and mine as well cut in front of me. He went right for his base. A kodiak altered his path a little to not run up my rear, another twin decided to overfly the airport, and then enter the patter, and someone else ended up squeezing in too. Everyone communicated, and it all worked out safely for all. Pilots should try to be better then the road rage on the ground.
 
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