Pattern Madness

[Fearless Tower]

that's a pretty ignorant way to describe those who served.

You're obviously new here, but FWIW, Tom served and he is not ignorant.

 

[Panew]

You're intentionally conflating my post with the entire thread, then diverting attention from my specific example towards some ambiguous universal.

The overhead break maneuver at pattern altitude is unnecessary when other airplanes are in the pattern -- if you have your own strip do whatever you want.

Flying opposite to established direction is stupid, and an RV driver was doing it -- what else do you want to hear?

did you get his tail?

 

[poadeleted20]

First, the 180 overhead approach is described in the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary. It's not mentioned by many CFI's training primary students, but it's there. And there are really good reasons not to do the entry high and dive into the downwind -- it should be done at TPA with a level turn to the downwind.

Second, the overhead/break is used by a lot of aircraft types flying formation besides RV's, including Grummans, Swifts, Bonanzas, and warbirds ranging from T-34's/CJ-6's to P-51's and the like.

Third, there is no significant difference between an overhead break and an "upwind entry" with a turn to the crosswind/downwind used by any pilots arriving in the same direction as the landing runway when a straight-in is either inappropriate or impractical, and that's done all the time.

Fourth, formation leaders are supposed to be wise enough not to bring the formation into the break at a nontowered civilian field if the pattern is too busy unless the arrival is coordinated over the radio with the other aircraft in the pattern. I realize there is a lot of self-taught formation flying out there, so there may be people leading formations who don't really know what they're doing, but that's another story.

Finally, while the FAA may recommend the 45-downwind midfield entry, the FAA recognizes and accepts pretty much any entry to the pattern from the outside including upwind, crosswind, and downwind entries.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Does anyone know if there are high wing RVs?

Only when they are flying the pattern.....



wait for it...



Wait for it....



Inverted

 

[dmccormack]

did you get his tail?

Nope, impossible: He didn't land at the airport (at least while I was there), and had black numbers on polished Aluminum finish --that's all I could see (and the US Roundel).

 

[Panew]

Nope, impossible: He didn't land at the airport (at least while I was there), and had black numbers on polished Aluminum finish --that's all I could see (and the US Roundel).

then how could you know its an RV?

 

[Anthony]

then how could you know its an RV?

Did it look like this?

 

[dmccormack]

then how could you know its an RV?

Well, it didn't look like this:

Or this:

Or even this:

But it looked alot like this:

So, I'm guessing it's an RV. Or maybe a cheap Chinese knock-off?

 

[ScottM]

Did it look like this?

But that is not an RV it is a W. Say so right on the side!

 

[dmccormack]

Did it look like this?

Actually, kinda more like this:

 

[Fearless Tower]

Did it look like this?

Lonestar!

There is only one man who would dare give me the raspberry!

 

[Tom-D]

that's a pretty ignorant way to describe those who served.

I wasn't describing those who served I was referring to the AWO RV squadron. That bunch has a reputation of arrogance and thinking they own the AWO airspace.
Please don't generalize my statements to include all military or airline pilots.

 

[Panew]

did he ID himself as experimental?
did he ID himself as RV?

you called a silver colored plane an RV?

it could well be any one of the 20+ looked alike low wing plane.
it could be a Mustang for all you know.

 

[dmccormack]

Lonestar!

There is only one man who would dare give me the raspberry!

Here! I have a picture of the RV!!!

 

[dmccormack]

did he ID himself as experimental?
did he ID himself as RV?

you called a silver colored plane an RV?

it could well be any one of the 20+ looked alike low wing plane.
it could be a Mustang for all you know.

::

You're depressing. Doc is right.

Let me break it down for ya: It was an RV-6, polished, tailwheel.

 

[Panew]

AWO is one of them, and the RV squadron is mostly old military pilots and old retired airline pilots (maybe both) running on ego.

that's a pretty ignorant way to describe those who served.

I wasn't describing those who served I was referring to the AWO RV squadron. That bunch has a reputation of arrogance and thinking they own the AWO airspace.
Please don't generalize my statements to include all military or airline pilots.

I did not mistaken you.
I take offense to how you described those who served.

You are disrespectful. Don't even try to talk your way out of this.

 

[pnewlon]

Dan - I am an RV4 pilot. I just want you to know that not all RVers are of the stereotypical variety. If I may, I would like to comment....

- So, the RV-apologists signed up and posted last night I see..

There was a post on VAF with a link to your post. I didn't even know about this site before today. I will hang around here, seems like there's some good stuff to be learned.

- these blasted RV drivers who feel compelled to do overhead breaks

I don't like overhead breaks or midfield entries. Both are too nerve wracking for me, but I understand that is a personal thing.

- I've talked with a couple of others on the ground after near-misses. Don't think it does much good, frankly.

Please don't stop trying. If you get through to just one, it might save somebody's life down the road.

- COOL is getting utility and operating for a lifetime without injuring anybody.

Amen

- The RV-er there just can't seem to grasp that they have a problem.

Oh yes they do. But as has already been posted, it is a few bad eggs that are spoiling the image of the rest of us.

- This is why I fly my airplane like I ride my motorcycle. I presume that everyone else in the air is an idiot who is trying to kill me.

Amen. I also ride a Honda CBR1000RR. It can do 189MPH but that doesn't mean I drive it that way.

- There are some airports that seem to attract RVs. Hang around there a week or so and you'll quickly come to the same conclusions...

Please take a breath and try to see what influence you might be having on someone else with stereo typical statements like this. I fly out of KDLZ, where several RVs are based. I have never witnessed an overhead break there and believe me I spend lots of time in the hangar with the door open just watching.

I owned a Cherokee 180 for seven years. I found that 98% of the time I was flying, there were three empty seats. 1% two were filled and 1% more than two. I bought the RV4 because it gets me where I am going much more quickly and with less fuel burned. I follow the rules and and mindful of my responsibility to keep my passenger, my fellow aviators, and myself safe.

I have experienced three near-misses. Two were in IMC with people that were not talking to ATC. The other was having a guy take the active while I was on VERY short final - doing a 180 to avoid landing on top of someone at that point in the landing phase was exciting. Two of the airplanes were definitely not RVs, the third I am not sure about I have flown with other RV pilots and feel no shame in asking them to fly safely. So far, I have not been chastised for being 'chicken'.

I have also experienced reckless flying by two CFIs that I was 'learning' from. One lesson ended with a gear-up landing (his fault, not mine), the other busted into IMC while my son was in the back of the plane with us. He felt it was OK because he was listening to ATC and it was 'just for a minute while we climbed through to get on top.' I have never flown with either again and have no problem telling people why I won't.

Thanks for listening and fly safely.

Phil

 

[Tom-D]

Finally, while the FAA may recommend the 45-downwind midfield entry, the FAA recognizes and accepts pretty much any entry to the pattern from the outside including upwind, crosswind, and downwind entries.

Am I correct in assuming the FAA still only recommends one turn in the direction of the traffic pattern in the AIM ? and that is an AC which is not regulatory in nature.

Entering the pattern in a unsafe manor can get you a citation under careless or reckless operation, but I have never heard of the FAA giving that citation without being a first hand witness to the event.

 

[ajstoner21]

Dan - I am an RV4 pilot. I just want you to know that not all RVers are of the stereotypical variety. If I may, I would like to comment....

- So, the RV-apologists signed up and posted last night I see..

There was a post on VAF with a link to your post. I didn't even know about this site before today. I will hang around here, seems like there's some good stuff to be learned.

- these blasted RV drivers who feel compelled to do overhead breaks

I don't like overhead breaks or midfield entries. Both are too nerve wracking for me, but I understand that is a personal thing.

- I've talked with a couple of others on the ground after near-misses. Don't think it does much good, frankly.

Please don't stop trying. If you get through to just one, it might save somebody's life down the road.

- COOL is getting utility and operating for a lifetime without injuring anybody.

Amen

- The RV-er there just can't seem to grasp that they have a problem.

Oh yes they do. But as has already been posted, it is a few bad eggs that are spoiling the image of the rest of us.

- This is why I fly my airplane like I ride my motorcycle. I presume that everyone else in the air is an idiot who is trying to kill me.

Amen. I also ride a Honda CBR1000RR. It can do 189MPH but that doesn't mean I drive it that way.

- There are some airports that seem to attract RVs. Hang around there a week or so and you'll quickly come to the same conclusions...

Please take a breath and try to see what influence you might be having on someone else with stereo typical statements like this. I fly out of KDLZ, where several RVs are based. I have never witnessed an overhead break there and believe me I spend lots of time in the hangar with the door open just watching.

I owned a Cherokee 180 for seven years. I found that 98% of the time I was flying, there were three empty seats. 1% two were filled and 1% more than two. I bought the RV4 because it gets me where I am going much more quickly and with less fuel burned. I follow the rules and and mindful of my responsibility to keep my passenger, my fellow aviators, and myself safe.

I have experienced three near-misses. Two were in IMC with people that were not talking to ATC. The other was having a guy take the active while I was on VERY short final - doing a 180 to avoid landing on top of someone at that point in the landing phase was exciting. Two of the airplanes were definitely not RVs, the third I am not sure about I have flown with other RV pilots and feel no shame in asking them to fly safely. So far, I have not been chastised for being 'chicken'.

I have also experienced reckless flying by two CFIs that I was 'learning' from. One lesson ended with a gear-up landing (his fault, not mine), the other busted into IMC while my son was in the back of the plane with us. He felt it was OK because he was listening to ATC and it was 'just for a minute while we climbed through to get on top.' I have never flown with either again and have no problem telling people why I won't.

Thanks for listening and fly safely.

Phil

Welcome to Pilots of America! I enjoyed reading your post. Hope you stick around.

 

[Anthony]

Welcome to Pilots of America! I enjoyed reading your post. Hope you stick around.

X2. Welcome!

 

[dmccormack]

Dan - I am an RV4 pilot. I just want you to know that not all RVers are of the stereotypical variety. If I may, I would like to comment....

[snipped for brevity]

Thanks for listening and fly safely.

Phil

Those weren't all my comments but I figure you were addressing the thread and not just my post.

Phil, I'm sure 90% of all RV pilots are as you describe. The behavior I was subjected to (near miss with student in left seat) Friday was particularly galling, and yet not restricted to RV owners/pilots.

That said, there seems to be a self-selection that attracts more than a normal distribution of idiots (defined as those who disdain accepted practice, safety margins, and the comfort of others). I think this is due to the hot nature of these aircraft, and the need to prove something.

It bother me a bit when I see people 10-20 years older than me still wearing the chip on the shoulder.

I guess I'm surprised by the time folks hit 50 they haven't achieved some measure of maturity that doesn't require constant outside validation.

Then again, maybe I'm the strange one.

 

[Tom-D]

You are disrespectful..

Only in your eyes.. I have the utmost respect for our military, but when you demonstrate a trate, I'll call ya on it.

the first word in my statement is (.......) read it again.

 

[Panew]

Its not really limited to RV's though. We heard a Cessna of some sort announcing a straight-in to runway 07 at a local airport a couple days ago. The problem was the 4 gliders, 2 tugs and a couple others who were using the opposite runway- 25. When notified that all other traffic was using runway 25 the cessna said he'd watch out for them.......while he landed on 07. I guess the bright side is that he was at least talking.

Frank

I agree. This is not limited to any particular brand. There is bad apple in very bunch. Blaming RV for bad behavior does not get my respect. This stereotype has no place in aviation education. If you want stereotype, this is a bad one I hear all the time: CFIs are frustrated heavy driver wannabes. Do you think this kind of propaganda is good for our industry?

 

[Tom-D]

I agree. This is not limited to any particular brand. There is bad apple in very bunch. Blaming RV for bad behavior does not get my respect. This stereotype has no place in aviation education. If you want stereotype, this is a bad one I hear all the time: CFIs are frustrated heavy driver wannabes. Do you think this kind of propaganda is good for our industry?

In this case there are 2% of the people making 100% of the news again.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Anyone else notice how this one thread has lead to several new members joining POA?

Did someone post over on the AOPA board that there was a fight over here?

 

[pnewlon]

I agree. This is not limited to any particular brand. There is bad apple in very bunch. Blaming RV for bad behavior does not get my respect. This stereotype has no place in aviation education. If you want stereotype, this is a bad one I hear all the time: CFIs are frustrated heavy driver wannabes. Do you think this kind of propaganda is good for our industry?

In Dan's defense, while the stereotype is uncomfortable for us RVers, his approach DID get some attention on VAF. Maybe, just maybe, one guy will follow the thread and it will cause him to re-evaluate his behavior. In doing so it will save his life and maybe that of an innocent sitting in the back seat.

 

[Ken Kopp]

First of all -

If YOU do not know what an Overhead Break is don't blame the other guy - read the AIM! It is there for everyone who enjoys mastering the art of flying to read.

The Overhead break entry wasn't created to "look cool" it is in fact the most efficient and orderly way to sequence a formation flight into the pattern. The fact it does look cool is simply a by-product. If you don't know how to fly formation and do not understand then maybe you should go learn and not be so afraid of the unknown. Certainly there are times when this shouldn't be done and perhaps the original posters event was such an occasion but it is ridiculous to condemn a published and approved procedure. I use the OH break entry almost exclusively and do so at tower controlled fields in both Class D and C airspace. ATC knows what it is - why don't you? I also use it at uncontrolled fields as well if it makes sense based upon traffic, and my position. I think you'll find most of us work it this way. If you are a CFI and you do not know this procedure get back in the books! If you are flying in the pattern and hear someone calling for the Overhead and you are uncomfortable you can simply ask for clarification - that other guys is just as motivated as you are to avoid the mid-air. Please remember not all planes are the same - Your C152 has a glide ratio significantly higher than most RVs making that huge training pattern less than optimum for an RV should an engine failure occur. Most RV pilots would like to stay tucked in close so they can assure a safe gliding recovery to the runway (wouldn't you). If you are with a student and extend way way upwind don't be alarmed if the faster less glide friendly RV would like to stay closer to the runway and hopefully some good radio comms will help resolve it (from both of you). The typical RV can fly two passes in the time a C-152 does during a typical student training flight. If you are uncomfortable ask the RV pilot to take the opposite pattern - or you take the opposite pattern and deconflict on the base turn.

Be sure the guys you are flaming are actually breaking regs before you slam them. If you are so comfortable in the way you fly at the location you fly you've forgotten there are often more ways to skin a cat.. it is YOUR problem and not the other guy. If anyone breaks a reg and you feel it was unsafe you have an obligation to try to contact that pilot or the authorities. If on the other hand the RV drivers you hate so much just don't do it like you do it but are flying legal then relax and maybe learn something new. I can almost guarantee if you stopped to talk to an RV pilot in the air or ground you'll find them to be some of the most friendly and considerate people around.

It is probably true most RV pilots have an attitude - We spent long hours building a plane with tremendous performance and expended of $ and effort, we love to fly, we love to fly professionally and we love to share the experience with others. The attitude of most RV pilots is very positive, safe and beneficial to all of GA. Go find an RV pilot and ask him for a ride - it'll change your perspective and probably cost you about $80K cause you'll want one yourself!

Fly safe and try to be nice!

Ken
RV8 - FD38 Wellington FL
CFI/CFII (fixed and rotary), Navy Pilot, Test Pilot

 

[ajstoner21]

Anyone else notice how this one thread has lead to several new members joining POA?

Did someone post over on the AOPA board that there was a fight over here?

I noticed. I wondered what the "new member count" was...

I think someone posted on an RV/Vans Forum... Not sure though.

 

[pnewlon]

Anyone else notice how this one thread has lead to several new members joining POA?

Did someone post over on the AOPA board that there was a fight over here?

Nope, Van's Air Force. I appreciate the welcome expressed by other members as I had never heard of this site before. As I already posted, his method is inflammatory but the effect might be a good thing.

 

[Anthony]

Welcome all RV guys (and gals if there are any under the age of 99)!

All I can say is I WANT ONE. (An RV that is, not a 99 y.o., or 99, same diff) lol!

I really think these little planes are the future of GA.

 

[dmccormack]

First of all -

If YOU do not know what an Overhead Break is don't blame the other guy - read the AIM! It is there for everyone who enjoys mastering the art of flying to read.

The Overhead break entry wasn't created to "look cool" it is in fact the most efficient and orderly way to sequence a formation flight into the pattern. The fact it does look cool is simply a by-product. If you don't know how to fly formation and do not understand then maybe you should go learn and not be so afraid of the unknown. Certainly there are times when this shouldn't be done and perhaps the original posters event was such an occasion but it is ridiculous to condemn a published and approved procedure. I use the OH break entry almost exclusively and do so at tower controlled fields in both Class D and C airspace. ATC knows what it is - why don't you? I also use it at uncontrolled fields as well if it makes sense based upon traffic, and my position. I think you'll find most of us work it this way. If you are a CFI and you do not know this procedure get back in the books! If you are flying in the pattern and hear someone calling for the Overhead and you are uncomfortable you can simply ask for clarification - that other guys is just as motivated as you are to avoid the mid-air. Please remember not all planes are the same - Your C152 has a glide ratio significantly higher than most RVs making that huge training pattern less than optimum for an RV should an engine failure occur. Most RV pilots would like to stay tucked in close so they can assure a safe gliding recovery to the runway (wouldn't you). If you are with a student and extend way way upwind don't be alarmed if the faster less glide friendly RV would like to stay closer to the runway and hopefully some good radio comms will help resolve it (from both of you). The typical RV can fly two passes in the time a C-152 does during a typical student training flight. If you are uncomfortable ask the RV pilot to take the opposite pattern - or you take the opposite pattern and deconflict on the base turn.

Be sure the guys you are flaming are actually breaking regs before you slam them. If you are so comfortable in the way you fly at the location you fly you've forgotten there are often more ways to skin a cat.. it is YOUR problem and not the other guy. If anyone breaks a reg and you feel it was unsafe you have an obligation to try to contact that pilot or the authorities. If on the other hand the RV drivers you hate so much just don't do it like you do it but are flying legal then relax and maybe learn something new. I can almost guarantee if you stopped to talk to an RV pilot in the air or ground you'll find them to be some of the most friendly and considerate people around.

It is probably true most RV pilots have an attitude - We spent long hours building a plane with tremendous performance and expended of $ and effort, we love to fly, we love to fly professionally and we love to share the experience with others. The attitude of most RV pilots is very positive, safe and beneficial to all of GA. Go find an RV pilot and ask him for a ride - it'll change your perspective and probably cost you about $80K cause you'll want one yourself!

Fly safe and try to be nice!

Ken
RV8 - FD38 Wellington FL
CFI/CFII (fixed and rotary), Navy Pilot, Test Pilot

I'm not sure where to begin, Ken.

The original post had nothing to do with overhead breaks (they were included later). The RV pilot choose to fly opposite the left downwind at pattern altitude. There's no reason for this to happen, ever.

Even in a power loss you don't parallel the runway opposite the traffic.

I was training a student in his Dad's C150 that day. I own and fly a Pre-War Chief and I can assure you my patterns are as tight as any. I also have lots of time in Bonanzas and large Cessna singles (210 series) and adapt accordingly.

So careful with the broad brush -- just because I happened to be in a Trainer that flight doesn't mean I don't understand and appreciate higher performance.

I have no idea why you concluded I "hate RV drivers so much." Perhaps youbelieve disagreement or conflict equals "hate." I have a slightly more nuanced view of the range of human interchange.

 

[BellyUpFish]

So, the RV-apologists signed up and posted last night I see..



Dr Bruce is absolutely right -- ya'll need to recognize the problems and address them, or the problem will be addressed for you, and all will suffer.

I'm no apologizing for anything (edited to add - I will apologize for the tone in my first post here). I'll agree with you, the bad apples of every segment of the aviation population need to be reigned in. The example Dr. Bruce (I think it was) posted about the incident at KDCU involved a personal friend of mine. He was a hot rod and it got him killed.

 

[BellyUpFish]

I have no idea why you concluded I "hate RV drivers so much." Perhaps youbelieve disagreement or conflict equals "hate." I have a slightly more nuanced view of the range of human interchange.

Maybe it's due to the sound of your post and subsequent posts appearing to attempt to pigeon hole RV pilots as dangerous? You went as far as to post a link to the Van's site "wondering why they call it an air force."

 

[Panew]

I'm getting the impression there is a common problem among RV pilots.

First, What is E-A/B? And What is Van doing that needs to change?

(This is all new to me. I never really paid attention to experimental/kit stuff)

a bit OT...

once you have tried an experimental glass panel (GRT, Advanced Flight Systems, Dynon, etc.,)
you cannot go back.

all the synthetic vision, safe taxi, etc., will spoil you forever.

 

[ScottM]

 

[BellyUpFish]

a bit OT...

once you have tried an experimental glass panel (GRT, Advanced Flight Systems, Dynon, etc.,)
you cannot go back.

all the synthetic vision, safe taxi, etc., will spoil you forever.

... not to mention the performance. I used to hate crawling out of the RV and into the Diamond to go somewhere.. However, it was nice to take more than 1 person with me.

Diamond's don't enter the pattern inverted as well though..

 

[Fearless Tower]

a bit OT...

once you have tried an experimental glass panel (GRT, Advanced Flight Systems, Dynon, etc.,)
you cannot go back.

all the synthetic vision, safe taxi, etc., will spoil you forever.

I could say the same thing for radial engines and a fistful of throttles.

 

[BellyUpFish]

I could say the same thing for radial engines and a fistful of throttles.

Now you're talking..

I almost cried on another message board when a member posted a thread titled "I love radials" and the first 5 or 6 posts thought he was referring to VOR's..

 

[AEROBAT]

The RV's are not a problem and neither are the majority of the RV pilots. There are some that should get a bit of refresher training before they drive them though. When I say that it is not because they are difficult to fly, they certainly are not they are probably the easiest taildragger to fly, or unique in flight characteristics. The hershy bar wing is very benign in stall and the control forces are light compared to many certified planes but not as light as you would be led to believe from what is posted on the internet.

I have flown the RV-4 about 1/2 hour from the back and the RV-7 about 2 hours giving the owner a bit of acro instruction. I know probably 6 or 7 RV owners personaly and 2 Harmon Rocket owners and a F1 Rocket owner. Out of all those people only one was flying like an idiot and he has since smartened up.

 

[poadeleted20]

Am I correct in assuming the FAA still only recommends one turn in the direction of the traffic pattern in the AIM ?

No, and I don't think the FAA ever did recommend only one turn in the direction of the pattern. Even with the recommended 45-downwind entry, you must make two turns in that direction (base and final).

and that is an AC which is not regulatory in nature.

I know of no AC which recommends only one turn in the direction of the traffic pattern.

Entering the pattern in a unsafe manor can get you a citation under careless or reckless operation, but I have never heard of the FAA giving that citation without being a first hand witness to the event.

I agree, but an overhead entry is not inherently unsafe, and is an FAA-recognized procedure.

However, arriving in the pattern by flying up the downwind leg and then maneuvering from there is definitely contrary to every FAA recommendation I've ever seen. But since that's not an "upwind entry" or "overhead entry," it's relevant only to Dan's original complaint (which as far as that went was vaild), not the slew of posts regarding formations, RV's, and overhead entries which followed.