Pattern Entry

I give up, Dwight. Guess my 5500 hours of experience in light planes hasn't taught me enough. I'll think about what you said over the next 5500 hours and let you know.
 
alaskaflyer said:
My 2c:

I can easily reach TPA by the end of a 5000 runway here in the winter climbing at either Vx or Vy even in my underpowered aircraft, and I often do.

As do turboprop and turbofan aircraft.

If crossing midfield is so dangerous then why does ATC often use that by default (coming from upwind) at controlled fields :dunno:

I've never been vectored to cross at crosswind by ATC. Wonder why?
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The advantage of a crosswind pattern entry (just beyond the departure end) isn't guaranteed vertical separation from traffic, it's the availability of options should there be a traffic conflict. If you think about it, there'd certainly be no advantage in having even 500 ft of vertical separation between an airplane entering on crosswind and another taking off because that separation would be short lived should the departing traffic stay in the pattern.

But as I said before, if there is conflicting traffic coming off the runway, you can simply turn upwind hand fall in behind. The whole idea is to see and avoid other planes and you don't want to be turning in random directions to resolve one conflict or you might just create another.

If you enter via a mid-field crosswind where are you going to go if you discover someone completing a crosswind to downwind turn or coming in on the "standard" 45 degree line when you reach the field center? You sure don't want to turn upwind at that point, and turning either way puts you belly to belly with that 45 entry airplane. Turning downwind early might resolve the short term problem but then where do you go?
 
What's the big deal...

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http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph-nntsb_connect?pass=12345&file=nntsb_199912.dat&pos=272801

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http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/51744.html

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http://www.koat.com/video/10260444/index.html?taf=alb
 
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lancefisher said:
The advantage of a crosswind pattern entry (just beyond the departure end) isn't guaranteed vertical separation from traffic, it's the availability of options should there be a traffic conflict. If you think about it, there'd certainly be no advantage in having even 500 ft of vertical separation between an airplane entering on crosswind and another taking off because that separation would be short lived should the departing traffic stay in the pattern.

But as I said before, if there is conflicting traffic coming off the runway, you can simply turn upwind hand fall in behind. The whole idea is to see and avoid other planes and you don't want to be turning in random directions to resolve one conflict or you might just create another.

If you enter via a mid-field crosswind where are you going to go if you discover someone completing a crosswind to downwind turn or coming in on the "standard" 45 degree line when you reach the field center? You sure don't want to turn upwind at that point, and turning either way puts you belly to belly with that 45 entry airplane. Turning downwind early might resolve the short term problem but then where do you go?
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The crosswind entry beyond the departure end is far superior to the midfield crossing at TPA, and a turn to downwind.

But the crosswind entry makes you substantially responsible for see and avoid for both planes. The guy on the runway is not going to see you crossing very well. He is keeping his plane on the centerline on the takeoff roll, and once he rotates his forward vision is limited. Just don't miss anyone on departure, and the crosswind entry works great.

Ron has 5500 hours, so perhaps he is sure he will never get distracted or make a mistake, but I want a little more distance just in case I screw it up somehow.
 
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Depends on what's going on in the pattern.
 
Ron Levy said:
I give up, Dwight. Guess my 5500 hours of experience in light planes hasn't taught me enough. I'll think about what you said over the next 5500 hours and let you know.
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Right, because hours means everything, and no one should argue with someone who has more hours.

You're right about this, Ron, you don't need to stoop that low to prove it.
 
Scott, that pic is an oldy/goody. Never seen it animated, though.
 
Ron Levy said:
I give up, Dwight. Guess my 5500 hours of experience in light planes hasn't taught me enough. I'll think about what you said over the next 5500 hours and let you know.
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I'll give up too. Everyone will do what they are comfortable with. No violation, either way.
 
SkyHog said:
Right, because hours means everything, and no one should argue with someone who has more hours.

You're right about this, Ron, you don't need to stoop that low to prove it.
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hell my grandpa had about 60,000 hours of crop dusting.....He'da been a real good guy to ask about proper pattern entry at a busy airport. (I'm joking btw)

On the other hand--if you would have asked him how to complete a turn overweight, on a hot day, while going under power lines and around some trees and you would of had a pretty good answer. Unfortunately I was too young to ask such questions before he passed.

Like you say--there is more to it then hours. Although hours is a decent measurement if you've got nothing else to go off of.
 
jesse said:
Like you say--there is more to it then hours. Although hours is a decent measurement if you've got nothing else to go off of.
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But Ron does have more to go off of. He's got massive amounts of experience in many situations. I may not agree with many of his interpretations lately, or the advice he's given, but he's got one thing right, and that's experience.

But 5500 hours doesn't show it. Hell, any recreational pilot could rack up 5500 hours flying pattern work over the years. And you know what? He'd still be a private pilot that hasn't done jack squat for experience.

I learned a while ago that hours does not make a pilot. And I stick to that argument. Situations make the pilot. Pushing the comfort envelope makes the pilot. Just being alive to have flown through some hairy stuff makes the pilot.

Hours? Just another number in the book.
 
lancefisher said:
If you enter via a mid-field crosswind where are you going to go if you discover someone completing a crosswind to downwind turn or coming in on the "standard" 45 degree line when you reach the field center? You sure don't want to turn upwind at that point, and turning either way puts you belly to belly with that 45 entry airplane. Turning downwind early might resolve the short term problem but then where do you go?
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Me? I'd head for the deck, fastest evasion measure for really close situations.
 
Ron Levy said:
DBVZ seems to miss the point, so I'll say it again. If you cross the extended centerline beyond the normal crosswind distance, you can get T-boned by someone climbing out. If you cross at the normal crosswind distance, you'll be above the departing aircraft, which will not yet have reached TPA.
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No matter where the crosswind is, you can get hit if you're not looking.

Count me among those who has reached TPA before the end of the runway. Cold day, nice headwind, and just me aboard, the 182 climbs like a bat out of hell chasing a homesick angel. Slightly over 1800 fpm last time I did pattern work in it. I've also gotten 700 ft/nm climb gradient to 6500 MSL with it. (Do I get bonus points for my wonderful cliche metaphor combination simile? :goofy:)

Also Ron, you mentioned turning crosswind at TPA-300. I've never heard of that. ??? I usually turn at 400 AGL. Yeah, it's an instrument thing but at a busy class C, they like us to turn crosswind very early most of the time. I just stick to 400 anyway so I have a bit more in the way of options.

Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
You only get T-boned flying 5 miles from the end of the runway if you are flying in conditions you could get T-boned anywhere by not seeing and being seen.
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IMHO, the closer crosswind is safer because you can actually see the planes. Have you ever tried to look at a small airplane 5 miles away? You can't really see it (and I have 20/13 vision). Also, those airplanes will turn on course at some point after takeoff and you have no clue where they're coming from. When you're closer in, it's quite easy to tell where they're coming from... The runway! And you're close enough to see them easily yet easily far enough to take evasive action if needed, with several options as to how to do so.

tdager said:
Again...I will do my best to be a safe, conscientious, professional pilot that others wish to emulate; however I may also do things that are not so right. I will re-evaluate my pattern entries in the future, though I admit to liking my method.
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Well, at least you're thinking about it. Puts you well ahead of some... I still hope you don't drop down onto me 'cuz I'm not gonna see you. :no: :(
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Also Ron, you mentioned turning crosswind at TPA-300. I've never heard of that. ??? I usually turn at 400 AGL. Yeah, it's an instrument thing but at a busy class C, they like us to turn crosswind very early most of the time. I just stick to 400 anyway so I have a bit more in the way of options.
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Different subject so my 2 cents. I suspect the TPA-300 originally came from when TPA at most airports was 800 AGL, and we are supposed to fly at min. 500 AGL unless "necessary". So turn crosswind at 500 so you are at least 500 as you turn out of the airport property. When most airports were changed to TPA of 1000 AGL, people made different choices about what to do. Some added 200 to the crosswind turn also, so turn crosswind at 700 AGL. Some calculated from the TPA (1000 - 300)= 700 so it works for all airport TPA's. If you are at an airport that is still TPA 800, you get a crosswind turn of 500 AGL. Others decided the crosswind turn at 500 AGL was still good, and do that at all airports regardless of the local TPA. But the AIM is more specific than that.

The CFI I used about 2 years ago was a TPA-300 guy, who also taught the aviation classes at the college. I noticed when a new FAR/AIM was published he highlighted the changes and had tabs all through the book for things he thought needed to be included in his lesson plans. The CFI who checked me out when I was renting shortly after that was a 500 AGL guy hired by the FBO. The second CFI said he had not heard of TPA-300. Could be a regional thing, or he was just not a CFI who checked the AIM when new editions are published. He had very recently relocated here from out of state somewhere, like Idaho or Montana. But in fact, the second guy was wrong. AIM Figure 4-3-3 says the crosswind turn should be "within 300 feet" of the TPA. I did not use that CFI again or recommend him to anyone else.

The same AIM also states that at uncontrolled airports or without ATC direction we are not supposed to turn crosswind before the end of the runway either, so at a lot of airports that would be at something over 700 AGL up to TPA before the turn if you are doing a max performance climb - depending on the aircraft, the climb rate, the runway length, headwind, in some cases where you decided to start from, etc. etc. Again, AIM Figure 4-3-3.

So, perhaps you will want to reconsider the turn at 400 AGL?
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
I usually turn at 400 AGL. Yeah, it's an instrument thing but at a busy class C, they like us to turn crosswind very early most of the time. I just stick to 400 anyway so I have a bit more in the way of options.
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I was taught turn crosswind at the end of the runway or 400agl, which ever occurs last.
 
alaskaflyer said:
My 2c:

I can easily reach TPA by the end of a 5000 runway here in the winter climbing at either Vx or Vy even in my underpowered aircraft, and I often do.

As do turboprop and turbofan aircraft.

If crossing midfield is so dangerous then why does ATC often use that by default (coming from upwind) at controlled fields :dunno:

I've never been vectored to cross at crosswind by ATC. Wonder why?
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Right - I can reach TPA by the end of the runway, but I've been taught to make a turn at (TPA - 300) if staying in the pattern. Of course, if leaving straight out, I don't turn.

Wrong - ATC at towered airports with crossing runways have you crossing one runway at the upwind and downwind ends at TPA. I've done it many times.
 
Ron Levy said:
At towered airports, you do what tower says. The question here is nontowered airports.
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Oh of course sir, I was not talking about towered airports at all!
 
A: *sigh*

Q: What is, Doesn't anyone read their AIM anymore?


I've been following this thread since inception and boy do I wonder.
 
Ron Levy said:
I give up, Dwight. Guess my 5500 hours of experience in light planes hasn't taught me enough. I'll think about what you said over the next 5500 hours and let you know.
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Ron, I just lost some respect for you. That was a very cocky statement. I have the same hours as you and would not be so brash to say that. Usually when I hear that statement at recurrent, it is stated in the last few minutes before they crash the sim. You might take some time to review your own code of conduct when someone disagrees with you and breathe a bit.

And before you spin this in your head that I am attacking you...I am not. Just giving a suggestion. And yes, I am still an active CFI and teach wisely. However dont take my opinion ask the five Tulsa DPE's.
 
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Flannagan said:
Ron, I just lost some respect for you. That was a very cocky statement. I have the same hours as you and would not be so brash to say that. Usually when I hear that statement at recurrent, it is stated in the last few minutes before they crash the sim. You might take some time to review your own code of conduct when someone disagrees with you and breathe a bit.

And before you spin this in your head that I am attacking you...I am not. Just giving a suggestion. And yes, I am still an active CFI and teach wisely. However dont take my opinion ask the five Tulsa DPE's.
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I think if Ron went so far as to give us all his CV, THAT would be brash. I think he was just pointing out his frustration at 1) the thread and 2) Dwight.
Let me say, I've been flying since 1990, and I'm still learning. We all are. We all can. Irrespective of the FAR or AIM, we've all seen variations on the same theme. When flying with an instructor or paying HOBBs time, people take short cuts. I think this thread has done a good job at pointing out some of the errors in that thinking.
Ron's opinion (because of his CV) carries a certain amount of weight, quite a bit more than say, mine. Perhaps we've all learned a little something during this exercise.
 
Now I have visions of the Tulsa 5 in my head.

Are they reminiscent of Dave Clark or Chicago 1968?

(Did I just date myself?)
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
I'll give up too. Everyone will do what they are comfortable with. No violation, either way.
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He has mentioned his hours before on another thread when he could not convince me of something. I was not offended by it. Experience means a lot. I am fine with agreeing to disagree, like I said above. And we all benefit from the discussion. I thought we were in agreement on the main point, which is that the mid-field crossing at TPA has some problems.
 
Richard said:
A: *sigh*

Q: What is, Doesn't anyone read their AIM anymore?


I've been following this thread since inception and boy do I wonder.
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Richard, did you have something specific you wanted to say about the subject? The crosswind turns at 400 AGL are one AIM issue. Did you have other points to make?
 
AuntPeggy said:
Wrong - ATC at towered airports with crossing runways have you crossing one runway at the upwind and downwind ends at TPA. I've done it many times.
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Seems like a different issue to me. ATC at Class D, C, B are supposed to know who they allow into the airspace and (hopefully) where they are. If they tell you to turn, you turn unless you are going to hit something or get into clouds (and in that case you tell them "unable" immediately so they can adjust). When no one is monitoring access to the airspace, and aircraft can fly without a radio, and you are depending on each other to see and avoid, ....
 
Bill Jennings said:
I was taught turn crosswind at the end of the runway or 400agl, which ever occurs last.
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These are the kind of responses that get me.

This is a great discussion and gets the point across that there are as many ways to do it as there are pilots to fly it. Thinking and learning occurs. Most people are aware of the "standard 45 to downwind entry" and "standard left turns" and "enter at TPA". Some are surprised at the AIM recommended TPA-300' crosswind turn. It seems all are learning some new tricks.

What gets me about these discussions are the ones who see the references of official publications, and still say, "I was taught..."

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it smells like you are saying "Well, I was taught to do it THIS way, and that's how we do it here...don't matter whut the AIM says."

We all deviate from the recommended norm, but we recognize what the norm is so that we know the deviation is safe, and we take responsibility for that deviation.

Anyway you want to deviate is fine...as long as you don't cause a traffic conflict. As long as you are certain of the traffic situation and you know you are not causing a traffic conflict, your x-wind turn, your pattern entry does not matter. It only matters when you are joining other traffic and then it is up to you to make the 'standard' entry or make your deviation known to the other traffic. As long as you are giving way to established traffic in the pattern, you are all right.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
But the crosswind entry makes you substantially responsible for see and avoid for both planes.
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You're always responsible for "see and avoid" in VMC outside Class A/B airspace, and the type of entry you use doesn't relieve anyone else of their responsibility for the same. If you're up at TPA, his forward visibility limitations won't matter -- if he can hit you, he can see you well before that happens.
 
Ron Levy said:
You're always responsible for "see and avoid" in VMC outside Class A/B airspace, and the type of entry you use doesn't relieve anyone else of their responsibility for the same. If you're up at TPA, his forward visibility limitations won't matter -- if he can hit you, he can see you well before that happens.
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I thought we were done with this. I just meant the guy on departure has a lot going on and limited visibility, and attention on panel as well as what he can see ahead. He is not going to be expecting someone crossing his path of flight unless you warned him - as I am sure you would - but that only works if he has a radio. I am not saying anyone is ever exempt from seeing and being seen, but when the other guy has some known issues he is dealing with it puts more responsibility on anyone else. Kind of like coming up behind another plane. Not likely he will see you, so you are supposed to do the adjusting.

As for "if he can hit you, he can see you well before that happens", I guess T-bone collisions are just impossible. That would also apply to my method of the end-around at about 5 miles, right?

Hey, I don't care what you do. Why do you care what I do? Just agree to disagree and move on. Are you of the opinion that this discussion has one "right" answer, and it is yours? I don't. I gave my opinion and my reasons, and you are free to ignore all of it.
 
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GaryO said:
For a different angle on this disscussion. How about if you're approaching a field along the extended centerline but on the departure end of the runway? Is it OK to just join the downwind or should you swing wide to enter on the 45?

To give some perspective. For the runway where I run into this, on crosswind you will be heading out over the Gulf so swinging wide to enter on the 45 will put you even further out to sea.
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Gary, I see no problem entering the downwind as you suggest as long as you are careful about watching for traffic launching off the runway and turning into you. I'd probably make my downwind a little bit wide at least initially so no one could sneak up on me from below.

There are lots of airports where the "standard" pattern is constrained by some man-made or natural issue such as the water at VNC or the tall downtown buildings near St Paul MN. That's one of the reasons why there are so few specific rules WRT airport traffic patterns.
 
I've never liked Option 1 even though lots of people do it. I've also seen
them cut off people in the pattern that are about to or have entered downwind. Also in a low wing you're going belly up to people entering
on the 45. My most used is to enter a cross wind about a mile or so off
the departure end of the runway. I then have the option of entering
downwind or continuing out a little way and entering on the 45 depending
on the traffic situation. I also on occasion use the fly over to the downwind
side and then a right (or left if right traffic) tear drop to the 45. Keep in
mind if you're going over 500 above the traffic pattern that larger
aircraft use the 1500 ft pattern altitude sometimes.

RT
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
So, perhaps you will want to reconsider the turn at 400 AGL?
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No, I'm at a class C airport. Also, having thought about it more, the controllers are usually "eager" about having us bugsmashers turn mostly when we're using runway 21. That's because when we're on 21, the airliners are mostly using 18. Since the departure end of 21 borders 18, they want us to turn left crosswind prior to nearing the end of the runway so that we're out of the way of the traffic on 18.

I can't remember the last time I practiced pattern work at a non-towered airport. :dunno:
 
Leaving AUS, they'd be happy if departing props turned out from runway heading at 100' AGL!
 
SCCutler said:
Leaving AUS, they'd be happy if departing props turned out from runway heading at 100' AGL!
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True, that.
Hey: I hate it when they turn us to the west, off 17L....they always, always do it, and they always, always have lots of carrier traffic coming off 17R.
Yes they are sharp, but I just hate turning towards that departure corridor, and sometimes I think they are talking to that side on another frequency. I watch like a hawk, and surely a SW 737 would be 1000' above my head in the wooden wonder but the CJ we might be close
 
Just ran into this, and since it applies to the subject though I would post it.

AOPA has a Safety Advisor on this topic. http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf

See page 8, Figures 9 and 10. The preferred pattern entry from the non-pattern side is mid-field crossing at TPA +500. It mentions going higher if turbine aircraft use a higher TPA than piston aircraft. With a descending turn to join the 45 and downwind.

Now, it also shows the "alternate" of a mid-field crossing at TPA and a turn directly onto the downwind. No mention of the crosswind entry, or my suggestion of the 5 mile end-around beyond the pattern.

I have never done a mid-field crossing at TPA. Probably never will for the reasons already given, but here it is in a Safety Advisor. Go figure. I have done the TPA +500 a lot, and the 5 mile end around several times depending on just what angle I am approacing from. No crosswind entry.

Not really posting to re-open the topic. Just thought the AOPA Safety Advisor was a relevant bit that ought to be included here.
 
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What about entering the pattern via initial? I've heard of civilians using the overnugget as a traffic pattern entry.. thoughts on that?
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
Just ran into this, and since it applies to the subject though I would post it.

AOPA has a Safety Advisor on this topic. http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf

See page 8, Figures 9 and 10. The preferred pattern entry from the non-pattern side is mid-field crossing at TPA +500. It mentions going higher if turbine aircraft use a higher TPA than piston aircraft. With a descending turn to join the 45 and downwind.
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As I've said before, this is a perfectly fine entry -- except that less experienced pilots are often unable to reacquire the airport on which they've turned their backs once they turn around, and then sometimes blow across the pattern at TPA (potentially creating havoc).

Now, it also shows the "alternate" of a mid-field crossing at TPA and a turn directly onto the downwind. No mention of the crosswind entry, or my suggestion of the 5 mile end-around beyond the pattern.
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Bruce Landsburg and I have gone round and round on this one before. I remain convinced that this entry compromises safety since it puts the mid-field crossing aircraft belly-to-belly with traffic on the 45 entry or in the closed pattern coming downwind from crosswind.
 
Patch said:
What about entering the pattern via initial? I've heard of civilians using the overnugget as a traffic pattern entry.. thoughts on that?
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Perfectly fine -- in the civilian parlance, it's called an "upwind entry."
 
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