Pattern Altitude - how far out?

gkainz

gkainz

Final Approach
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Greg Kainz
Well, another interesting tidbit arises - well, interesting for me, anyway. Another CFI points out that he wants to be at pattern altitude 5-8 miles out ... Via these queries while inbound:
"What's pattern altitude?" then
"What's your altitude?" then
"Are you gonna descend one of these days?"
I discovered that I wait until much closer than at least this CFI likes before I descend to pattern altitude. I guess I like being 500' or so above until a mile or two, for some unbeknown to me reason ...

And I never did get to ask more questions regarding the normal no-flaps landing - she's off on walkabout to Antarctica!
 
I'm usually at pattern altitude when I'm 3 miles left 45. That depends on where others are but 5 miles around the airport seems to work. I have been chastised by my cfi on one checkout. He didn't think I needed to be at pattern when entering the left 45.
But then again, if it works for you, so what. You're allowed 1,000'. You're allowed to adjust as needed.
 
Down to TPA 5-8 miles out is too far -- no need to be that low that far out, and it only annoys the neighbors. However, you also want to be below the heavy/jet pattern, which is usually wider and 500 feet higher than the light plane TPA. For VFR arrivals, I usually plan to be TPA+500 at 5 miles, and descend to the pattern from there. That keeps me high enough to avoid making noise but still getting under the heavy/jet pattern (which I figure to extend out 2-3 miles -- yes, that's a lot wider than we do, but it's right for a G-IV and the like).
 
id try to get down to pattern altitude 2-3 minutes out.
 
I have students descend to TPA about three miles from the airport unless we need to cross over midfield to enter the pattern then it's 500 above TPA until a couple miles beyond.

But, eight miles? We might as well never climb leaving Austin. I don't want to be that low that far out nor do I want to be descending in or near the pattern.
 
I get to pattern altitude right about when I get to the pattern. :)

No jet traffic at Hastings or Sidnaw.
 
I'm more worried about airplanes in the sky than whatever is on the ground, so I probably cheat down a bit farther out so the traffic (that may or may not be talking) will be visible above the horizon.



Ron Levy said:
Down to TPA 5-8 miles out is too far -- no need to be that low that far out, and it only annoys the neighbors. However, you also want to be below the heavy/jet pattern, which is usually wider and 500 feet higher than the light plane TPA. For VFR arrivals, I usually plan to be TPA+500 at 5 miles, and descend to the pattern from there. That keeps me high enough to avoid making noise but still getting under the heavy/jet pattern (which I figure to extend out 2-3 miles -- yes, that's a lot wider than we do, but it's right for a G-IV and the like).
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5 miles is usually too far, IMHO. Certainly not necessary. My general rule of thumb is to be at TPA only just before I make whatever maneuver I will be making to join the pattern- usually 2-3 miles out.
 
EdFred said:
I get to pattern altitude right about when I get to the pattern.
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That's pretty much what I do.
I believe in the old school ways, don't fly a downwind beyond a point where you cannot make the runway if the engine quits.
Ideally, I like to glide 500 fpm from cruise altitiude down to pattern altitude entry on downwind.

It then depends on what type of airplane you are flying.
Piper's don't glide well (R28Rs and PA32s, anyway).
Cessna's glide quite well, on the otherhand.
If you fly an Cub or a Champ, the whole world is your runway.
 
My home field is in a 500-foot-deep valley running N-S in the middle of a congested area. Anyone coming from the west or east who drops to TPA three miles out will be violating the minimum-altitude FAR....

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
My home field is in a 500-foot-deep valley running N-S in the middle of a congested area. Anyone coming from the west or east who drops to TPA three miles out will be violating the minimum-altitude FAR....

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...
The FAR says "Except when necessary for landing....."
 
infotango said:
The FAR says "Except when necessary for landing....."
Click to expand...
Yep..."necessary."

I get that low when crossing the ridgeline, but I think someone would have a tough time convincing the FAA that was necessary to fly at 500 AGL over a severely congested area for two miles prior to reaching the valley. Otherwise, if I'm ever accused of buzzing, I'll just claim I was flying a tenth-degree glide slope to the nearest airport...:smile:

Ron Wanttaja
 
Airplanes and towers don't really like each other much. I plan my descent to reach pattern altitude < 3 miles from the airport and usually more like a mile or two.
 
infotango said:
The FAR says "Except when necessary for landing....."
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The FAA interprets that phrase to mean you may not descent below the normal 91.119 limit altitude until further delay would force you to use an abnormal maneuver or abnormal rate of descent to get down to the runway. For example, it means you aren't allowed to leave the 1000 AGL TPA over a congested area until somewhere around the abeam to base turn position. If there's a way to enter that valley airport pattern using normal maneuvers and a normal rate of descent without descending below the 91.119 minimum prior to pattern entry, you are required to do that.
 
I think there are places where you might come close to hitting things if you are down that low esp at night - and you are still in a mountainous state too, right Greg?
 
gkainz said:
Well, another interesting tidbit arises - well, interesting for me, anyway. Another CFI points out that he wants to be at pattern altitude 5-8 miles out ... Via these queries while inbound:
"What's pattern altitude?" then
"What's your altitude?" then
"Are you gonna descend one of these days?"
I discovered that I wait until much closer than at least this CFI likes before I descend to pattern altitude. I guess I like being 500' or so above until a mile or two, for some unbeknown to me reason ...
...
Click to expand...
My CFI also says be at pattern altitude 5 miles out. I sometimes come down even earlier.

He says you can't see the traffic in the pattern if you're looking down on it against the ground clutter. Makes sense to me.

Keep in mind that we're in flatland. I only have be aware of cell and powerline towers and those top out at 400' AGL.

'Course I went out from the far extended downwind to intercept the 45 5 miles out my PPL checkride and the DE wanted to know where I was going. :dunno:
 
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There are warm days, when the air is calm, right before sunset, I'll take off and go flying for an hour just for fun. When come back to the airport I have to pull up to get into pattern altitude. I have not been 1,000' AGL the entire flight.

The farmers around here are really cool too. They used to turn on these big round sprinklers so I can fly though them and wash the bugs off my plane. Now, they have the new style center pivots. The "drip system" nozzles are really low to the ground to save water, but I think it is a conspiracy against dirty buggy planes. I haven't figured out how to use them yet. Maybe I'm suppose to land and let the sprinklers go over the top?

Flying is good in Nebraska.
 
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I've never given it much thought, but now that I do think about it, I usually arrive at pattern altitude right about when I turn off the 45 and onto downwind.

I should probably try to get there earlier, because that technically means I'm descending into the pattern.
 
SkyHog said:
I've never given it much thought, but now that I do think about it, I usually arrive at pattern altitude right about when I turn off the 45 and onto downwind.

I should probably try to get there earlier, because that technically means I'm descending into the pattern.
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As long as you're below the heavy/jet pattern as you go under it, I wouldn't worry too much about your practice. If anything, you're easier for someone turning crosswind-downwind to see when you're against the sky. That bit about descending into the pattern is a problem when people actually get into the pattern above TPA and then descend on top of someone already at TPA. Just make sure you're not descending on top of someone on the 45 below you.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I think there are places where you might come close to hitting things if you are down that low esp at night - and you are still in a mountainous state too, right Greg?
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just a few miles to the west the hills get a little large, yeah ... :p
 
I am for ground level at the airport, which at 120 knots GS and 500 fpm descent puts me at TPA 4 miles from the field. Simple.
 
I was taught that you should be at pattern altitude while on the 45. Ideally, you'd start a descent so that you'd arrive on the 45 at pattern altitude, rather than maneuvering around to lose altitude there, but definitely not being 5-8 miles out.
 
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