Partial Panels in G-1000 aircraft

[PHXAvi8tor]

For instructors, have you found any better ways to simulate partial panels other than the way Garmin recommends?

Of course, in the old steam gauges, if the Turn Coordinator fails, we simply can refer to the Attitude Indicator and do our standard rate turn by calculating bank angle based on TAS.

However, in G-1000, if the Turn Coordinator fails, we have bigger problems, ie, the AHRS unit failing. So, then we simply refer to our backup Attitude Indicator, and do the bank angle for standard rate turn based on TAS.

Am I missing something???

Dang, checkride jitters are starting to make me feel like I don't know any of this stuff.

 

[Areeda]

Ben,

Garmin has published a procedure for simulating failure of the different systems. I haven't downloaded it recently but I believe it is on the FAA site under TAA and on the Garmin site under the G1000.

I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

Joe

 

[Areeda]

This is the one I am talking about: http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/G1000:Non-AirframeSpecific_GuideforDPEsandCFIs.pdf

I think the section on failure mode scenarios is excellent. Are you looking for more?

Joe

 

[poadeleted20]

If you don't want to go pulling the breakers as Garmin recommends, you can get plastic overlays from Sporty's (among other places) which can be hung over the PFD to give the desired result, much like sticking something over the traditional instruments.
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=11447&CATID=172

 

[KennyFlys]

If you don't want to go pulling the breakers as Garmin recommends, you can get plastic overlays from Sporty's (among other places) which can be hung over the PFD to give the desired result, much like sticking something over the traditional instruments.
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=11447&CATID=172

This is the same thing I was going to suggest. They are pricey at $29.95 but nearly mandatory since you're not allowed to pull breakers on the Cessna NAV III panels.

Fortunately, we can simulate a lot on our Frasca Mentor G-1000 ATD. But, the overlays come in handy if you want to throw in a failure on a XC.

 

[schmookeeg]

If you don't mind a little arts and crafts time...

Print this on Legal paper, cut out the white areas, mount it on foam core, and you're set.

It hangs on the nav/com tuning knobs, and simulates a dead AI/DG and static instruments only. Just what a crotchety old Examiner who wants to "fail the vacuum pump" will want.

 

[KennyFlys]

If you don't mind a little arts and crafts time...

Print this on Legal paper, cut out the white areas, mount it on foam core, and you're set.

It hangs on the nav/com tuning knobs, and simulates a dead AI/DG and static instruments only. Just what a crotchety old Examiner who wants to "fail the vacuum pump" will want.

Mike, excellent solution! Cheap and easy to produce what ya need.

Thank you!

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

I have the Garmin documents for instructors, and they seem inadequate.

The aircraft owners won't allow the Sporty's plastic covers -- they say they might damage the glass panels.

Tried hanging paper from the glare shield/dash. That sortof works.

I am thinking the old Frasca FTD is going to be my best bet....

 

[poadeleted20]

The aircraft owners won't allow the Sporty's plastic covers -- they say they might damage the glass panels.

Then they're idiots. Tell them it's either that or you use Garmin's recommendations and start pulling c/b's, because the FAA requires it as part of the training and practical test.

 

[KennyFlys]

Then they're idiots. Tell them it's either that or you use Garmin's recommendations and start pulling c/b's, because the FAA requires it as part of the training and practical test.

Our Frasca sim has this heavy, plastic overlay on the screens. It's adhered to the screen pretty well. I'd think it would be worthwhile on the actual aircraft panels.

 

[Areeda]

I have the Garmin documents for instructors, and they seem inadequate.

Would you expand on that, please?
I don't understand why you don't want to pull CBs? Does the Cessna POH say differently?

Seems very realistic to me to fail one system at a time. Wish we could do that with Avidyne.

Joe

 

[KennyFlys]

Would you expand on that, please?
I don't understand why you don't want to pull CBs? Does the Cessna POH say differently?

Seems very realistic to me to fail one system at a time. Wish we could do that with Avidyne.

Joe

From the POH, Page 7-43:

CIRCUIT BREAKERS AND FUSES

Individual system circuit breakers are found on the circuit breaker panel below the pilot's control wheel. All circuit breakers are "pullable" for electrical load management. Using a "pullable" circuit breaker as a switch is discouraged since the practice will decrease the life of the circuit breaker.

From Page 17 of the Garmin manual referenced above:

Recommendations for Failure Simulation

_____________________________________​

NOTE: It is important to follow the aircraft manufacturer’s recommendations for failure simulation, for they supersede any guidance provided in this document.

And Page 19 of the same document:​

Cessna does not recommend pulling circuit breakers as a means of simulating failures on the GIFD. Pulling circuit breakers—or using them as switches—has the potential to weaken the circuit breaker to a point at which it may not perform its intended function. Using circuit breakers as switches is also discouraged in Advisory Circulars 120-80, 23-17B, and 43.13-1B.

Additionally, a circuit breaker may be powering other equipment (such as avionics cooling fans),and pulling such a circuit breaker could affect the safe operation of other equipment.​

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm sorry Kenny, but that's relevant documentation. You can't post that here!!

 

[KennyFlys]

I'm sorry Kenny, but that's relevant documentation. You can't post that here!!

Ha! It should satisfy those who always complain I don't document what I state. Strangely, the last time I followed through with documentation, none of those who previously barked at my statement retracted their own.

The funny thing about that... those very same type of breakers (Klixon, I believe) were used on the S-3 Viking. When we started up or shut down systems, it was through those breakers. So, at least one cycle per flight, sometimes more. During maintenance, it could be several cycles. I don't recall ever seeing the AE's replace breakers on that panel.

 

[jesse]

Ha! It should satisfy those who always complain I don't document what I state. Strangely, the last time I followed through with documentation, none of those who previously barked at my statement retracted their own.

The funny thing about that... those very same type of breakers (Klixon, I believe) were used on the S-3 Viking. When we started up or shut down systems, it was through those breakers. So, at least one cycle per flight, sometimes more. During maintenance, it could be several cycles. I don't recall ever seeing the AE's replace breakers on that panel.

Often, you'll find, that OWTs make it into documentation. You have to sort through what is legit and what is not.

 

[KennyFlys]

Often, you'll find, that OWTs make it into documentation. You have to sort through what is legit and what is not.

While I agree the Cessna advice is unnecessarily restricting, it's that bite a certain federal agency can have on ya if you fail to follow it.

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

Would you expand on that, please?
I don't understand why you don't want to pull CBs? Does the Cessna POH say differently?

Seems very realistic to me to fail one system at a time. Wish we could do that with Avidyne.

Joe

I cannot remember whether I read it in the Garmin or in the Cessna literature, but one of them strongly recommends against pulling circuit breakers because of concern it will weaken the contact points in the circuit breakers, themselves, over time, and might eventually result in an actual failure due to a failed circuit breaker.

Sorry to have to point you back to the literature, but I'm tired tonight and just don't want to drive back up to the airport to pull it out of my flight locker.

But, I am certain I am correct that either Cessna, or Garmin, recommends against pulling circuit breakers.

Although, will buy you a hamburger if you prove me wrong!

 

[LearDriver]

We use as a standard practice pulling breakers on the probe heat and other items when the airplane is parked. Just so the can't get left on or turned on if someone is out in the airplane and powers up the electrical system. I haven't heard of one failing yet.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you don't want to use the c/b's, get and use the overlays. Damaging the screen? I want to see documentation of that. If it did, the folks who make the overlays would be buying new screens.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The funny thing about that... those very same type of breakers (Klixon, I believe) were used on the S-3 Viking. When we started up or shut down systems, it was through those breakers. So, at least one cycle per flight, sometimes more. During maintenance, it could be several cycles. I don't recall ever seeing the AE's replace breakers on that panel.

I cannot remember whether I read it in the Garmin or in the Cessna literature, but one of them strongly recommends against pulling circuit breakers because of concern it will weaken the contact points in the circuit breakers, themselves, over time, and might eventually result in an actual failure due to a failed circuit breaker.

But, I am certain I am correct that either Cessna, or Garmin, recommends against pulling circuit breakers.

You are correct - But this is most certainly an OWT. Last time we had this discussion, Lance Fisher pulled up the specs, and the Klixon breakers are rated for the exact same duty cycle as the switches are! It was something like 6,000 pulls or whatever. So Cessna is full of crap on this one. Shocking.

 

[schmookeeg]

Out of curiousity, what breakers are you pulling for G-1000 partial panel work?

We used to kill the AHRS breaker, but it also trashes the mode-C, which SoCal Approach makes faces at, for obvious reasons...

 

[TMetzinger]

If you don't want to use the c/b's, get and use the overlays. Damaging the screen? I want to see documentation of that. If it did, the folks who make the overlays would be buying new screens.

The overlays that hang on the knobs have minimal contact with the screens and are not treated with anything that would harm the screens.

I'm with Ron - the guy objecting to them is a moron.

 

[LearDriver]

How about post it notes?

 

[poadeleted20]

How about post it notes?

Assuming the owner doesn't go ape over having the glue on his screen.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Assuming the owner doesn't go ape over having the glue on his screen.

I still agree with all of your points regarding the plastic overlays from Sporty's. They seem to do a good job simulating LRU failures without damaging the GDU1044 (display).

 

[poadeleted20]

I still agree with all of your points regarding the plastic overlays from Sporty's. They seem to do a good job simulating LRU failures without damaging the GDU1044 (display).

And if he won't allow that, imagine his response to post-it glue.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

And if he won't allow that, imagine his response to post-it glue.

What if you touch the display and leave a fingerprint? Never again will you fly in the airplane.