Part 141 vs. Part 61

[jesse]

What is your experience with Part 141 schools?

IME It really seems to be that a lot of them concentrate on one thing...Getting you through the checkride. They have mock checkrides of a mock checkride of the checkride...Things like that.

Whereas the part 61 schools I've seen seem more oriented on making you a safe real world pilot ready to face the challenges that you may encounter.

I think part 141 is only worth it if you want to be a professional pilot and get through quickly with loans.

I feel that Part 61 schools produce more prepared real world pilots.

 

[ScottM]

What is your experience with Part 141 schools?

IME It really seems to be that a lot of them concentrate on one thing...Getting you through the checkride. They have mock checkrides of a mock checkride of the checkride...Things like that.

Whereas the part 61 schools I've seen seem more oriented on making you a safe real world pilot ready to face the challenges that you may encounter.

The way I look at it is Part 141 is only worth it if you want to be a professional pilots and pay for it with loans..

I *think* that Part 61 schools produce more prepared real world pilots.

The biggest difference between part 141 and 61 schools is 80

Really, I think they produce equally competant pilots but use slightly different method of managing the curiculum. The majority of differences between the two will be more noticed by the instructors and other staff than by the student. At the end of the training process one is a pilot. Which ever method works better will vary with each person.

 

[ednowlin]

I think part 141 is only worth it if you want to be a professional pilot and get through quickly with loans.

I feel that Part 61 schools produce more prepared real world pilots.

I got my PPL part 61, and comm.- CFII part 141... as far as loans, part 61 in most cases require more flight time, and thats not cheap either, but then again, flight time is always a good thing, and more expierience in flying (ie: flight time) can help in making you a better pilot.
I will say, if finishing quickly is your goal (getting into job market) then 141 seems to work out well. Is it "better" ???

 

[bkreager]

There are good schools in each catergory, and also not-so-good schools in each as well. I think the more structured, less flexible nature of 141 makes it more appealing to most career-oriented pilots. I am personally in a 141 school getting my CFI and it has worked out well for me.

 

[TMetzinger]

many student financing programs (like the GI Bill), require you to be in a 141 school, since the 141 operation is required to meet specific standards for curriculum, syllabus, and pre- and post- flight briefings.

Be sure to check with your loan source about requirements.

 

[wesleyj]

I received my CFI part 61 in 1968, since then, i have noticed a couple of things about the differant methods,

The 141 students, know theory, regs, charts and checklists inside out, but they cant fly,

The 61 students may not be as sharp on regs, theory and checklists, but they dont get lost trying to fly XC without a GPS, they know how to attitude fly, use trim and know what the inside of a cloud looks like, part 61 CFIs I feel are much better CFIs.

 

[jesse]

Yeah. I don't plan on getting loans and pounding through my ratings...quite frankly I don't want to fly professionally anymore. To hell with it.

Someday I might want to do some part-time CFI stuff. But that's going to be about the extent of it.

 

[tonycondon]

not like you'd be able to teach anyone anything anyway jesse you went through part 61!
buhahaha

 

[jesse]

not like you'd be able to teach anyone anything anyway jesse you went through part 61!
buhahaha

 

[TMetzinger]

I received my CFI part 61 in 1968, since then, i have noticed a couple of things about the differant methods,

The 141 students, know theory, regs, charts and checklists inside out, but they cant fly,

The 61 students may not be as sharp on regs, theory and checklists, but they dont get lost trying to fly XC without a GPS, they know how to attitude fly, use trim and know what the inside of a cloud looks like, part 61 CFIs I feel are much better CFIs.

Interesting since there's not much difference in the amount of DUAL required under the various parts.

Are you comparing the graduates of programs like ERAU for your 141 students and the part 61 from the local CFI, or the nearby 141 FBO ops? our local FBO does it both ways and I don't see much difference in the skills in the local population.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The written & checkrides are the same for both plus phase checks, whether required or selected as an option by the flight student provide additional, varied exposure to different, well tested and at the least, fairly experienced CFIs. Bottom line is that all written material is out there and easily accessable to any flight student along with classic training aircraft and that student's piloting ability will ultimately be mostly a measure of themselves and their degree of self motivation in extracting maximum knowlegde and motor skills from all facets of any type of flight training program.

 

[Frank Browne]

A motivated student combined with a dedicated instructor IMHO will produce the best pilot. I think most instructors at 141 schools have to teach within the bounderies of the institutions the teach at while pt 61 instructors have some latitude in how they teach. However, I did get my PPL through a Part 141 program at a private university and for me I really liked the more structured environment.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yeah. I don't plan on getting loans and pounding through my ratings...quite frankly I don't want to fly professionally anymore. To hell with it.

Jesse,

Why the change of heart?

 

[wesleyj]

Interesting since there's not much difference in the amount of DUAL required under the various parts.

Are you comparing the graduates of programs like ERAU for your 141 students and the part 61 from the local CFI, or the nearby 141 FBO ops? our local FBO does it both ways and I don't see much difference in the skills in the local population.

It is not a matter of quantity, it is a case of quality or in the case of 141 schools, a dramatic lack thereof, 2 cases in point.

I recently flew with a graduate of ERAU, had a commercial, we were flying to a trade meeting in his 172, the trip down was great except for one thing, he never had his head outside of the cockpit. On the return, as we were ready to taxi onto the runway i turned off the GPS, handed him a sectional and said lets go home. He could not do it.

Case 2, one of my students from years ago cantacted me, wanted to know if i would fly with his grand-daughter in his 172, told me she had 27 hours, still had not done an unassisted landing. I flew with her for 3 hours and soled her, 45 days later she got her PPL, a year later, she has her commercial and instrument, will have her CFI before summer is over, she is the second natural that I have flown with, but her ERAU educated CFI could not see that.

I have noticed a very disturbing, at least to me, trend downward in the quality of CFIs coming out of the mills and a corresponding decrease in the quality of students produced,

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It is not a matter of quantity, it is a case of quality or in the case of 141 schools, a dramatic lack thereof, 2 cases in point.

I recently flew with a graduate of ERAU, had a commercial, we were flying to a trade meeting in his 172, the trip down was great except for one thing, he never had his head outside of the cockpit. On the return, as we were ready to taxi onto the runway i turned off the GPS, handed him a sectional and said lets go home. He could not do it.

,

That's hard to believe...
Where for instance, would that commercial rated pilot have taken and passed both his private and commercial written AND practical/oral FAA tests without such knowledge?

 

[jesse]

That's hard to believe...
Where for instance, would that commercial rated pilot have taken and passed both his private and commercial written AND practical/oral FAA tests without such knowledge?

Uh. I beleive it. I've seen many of the same thing. My Private Pilot examiner actually TURNED the gps on before takeoff.

I'm probably guility of the GPS addiction too. If I don't get too lazy I plan on flying to gastons using a sectional, my eyes, and a compass. Oh yeah, and Tony will be there to find us when I get lost...which will probably happen a few seconds after I rotate.

 

[wbarnhill]

That's hard to believe...
Where for instance, would that commercial rated pilot have taken and passed both his private and commercial written AND practical/oral FAA tests without such knowledge?

Could've had it but after the checkride never used the skills and they just faded. Became too reliant on the GPS. I admit I started to fall into that trap. :/

 

[TMetzinger]

It is not a matter of quantity, it is a case of quality or in the case of 141 schools, a dramatic lack thereof, 2 cases in point.

I recently flew with a graduate of ERAU, had a commercial, we were flying to a trade meeting in his 172, the trip down was great except for one thing, he never had his head outside of the cockpit. On the return, as we were ready to taxi onto the runway i turned off the GPS, handed him a sectional and said lets go home. He could not do it.

Case 2, one of my students from years ago cantacted me, wanted to know if i would fly with his grand-daughter in his 172, told me she had 27 hours, still had not done an unassisted landing. I flew with her for 3 hours and soled her, 45 days later she got her PPL, a year later, she has her commercial and instrument, will have her CFI before summer is over, she is the second natural that I have flown with, but her ERAU educated CFI could not see that.

I have noticed a very disturbing, at least to me, trend downward in the quality of CFIs coming out of the mills and a corresponding decrease in the quality of students produced,

I see you have two examples from ERAU, yet you lump ALL 141 programs in the same boat.

 

[wesleyj]

That's hard to believe...
Where for instance, would that commercial rated pilot have taken and passed both his private and commercial written AND practical/oral FAA tests without such knowledge?

ERAU is where he got his private and commercial, another case in point, Tueday I flew an ifr trip to MNM, lousy crappy day, IFR both ways, PPL from a midwest 141 Mill in right seat, knew the GPS very well, didnt have a clue as to what i was doing with the OBS, or what the CDI represented, i follow all flights on a sectional, always have, he couldnt do it. The local trained student in the back seat was showing him how when i got too busy with the weather. A 25 hour local student, just finished his dual XC knew, certified pilot did not. HMMMMM!!!

It would not be the first time, nor will it be the last time that an on staff DPE has been less than thourough on a check ride.

 

[wesleyj]

I see you have two examples from ERAU, yet you lump ALL 141 programs in the same boat.

That is mainly because they are the most recognisable, i do have to admit that i have seen some striking inadequacies from 61 schools but not on the scale that i have from 141,

On the other hand, some of the best that i have seen come out of College administered 141 schools, Western Michigan, Andrews University, Ohio State and Southern Illinois University all stand out in my mind as terrific schools, Spartan Aviation in years past was an exemplary school, i have not had any experiance with recent grads from there so i cant say,

I realise that GPS and Glass cockpits are the coming thing, but i still think that pilots would be better trained and be much better pilots if they learned in a citabria with a basic panel 1 VOR and a sectional, they might know how to feel an airplane in the seat of their pants, know by looking out the window the proper attitude for a given airspeed, and how to correctly trim for it,

I think what really concerns me, is that the 141 schools are training right seaters not pilots, the only place training pilots are the 61 schools at local airports, their numbers are dwindling so rapidly that i am afraid we are going to end up with no real pilots in GA.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I see you have two examples from ERAU, yet you lump ALL 141 programs in the same boat.

Tim,

You're right, it could certainly go either way. I think some of the big schools are "inbred" b/c they hire their own students as CFI's to build up their time.

The local FBO is getting back into 141 so they can accommodate the GI Bill type folks. I'd expect them to provide the same level of quality no matter what part they train under.

 

[silver-eagle]

Is it the equipment used? My 61 has 3 mid 80's warriors. No wizzbang glass in them. Or the emphasis on the wizzbang vs the old M1 eyeball? Or is it that the current crop of CFIs grew up with wizzbang electronics and the old vacuum gages just don't have any magic in them?
I don't think it is necessarily 141 vs 61. It's who is attracted to them; both students and teachers; and why they are there.