Part 141 vs. 61

Crane Pilot

Crane Pilot

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ok since ive been looking at the FAR's i noticed that, if you enrolled in a 141 school you only need a min. of 35 hrs for the ppl but if your in a 61 school you need 40 for your ppl. the big question is , why the difference? The second question is what are they dropping or doing less of in the 141. I will be a new old starting again student pilot eventually so i was just curious, not that i am considering going to a 141 school or anything.
 
It's a way for the FAA to throw flight schools and students a bone and get them to put up with more red tape.

I believe the justification is that the FAA approved syllabus and the groundschool requirement (I believe 35 hours of ground time is required under 141, no minimum under 61) makes up for the reduced flight time, but most people aren't going to finish in 40 flight hours let alone 35 regardless of which type of school.
 
The formal structure of the program is the difference. The hours differences are minimal in a practical sense, as the 141 schools typically cost more. If you want to get in the air, find an accelerated program and devote the 2-3 weeks it takes to complete your ticket. This will generally save your time and money. Pecking at your rating can cost you thousands more when your stretch it out over time.
 
For a PPL, it doesn't really matter in my opinion. As mentioned, you likely would not get your ticket in 35, nor 40 hours. I was a 61 student, but still ended up following the 141 sillybus which was offered to others.
 
You have to look at the other requirements of the part 61, specifically cross country requirements, solo requirements, night time requirements, etc. Part 141 has few, if any, of those same requirements. You just get to that part of the training, do it, and then move on. With part 61, if you get to 40, but are short .2 hours of solo cross country, you have the privilege of flying another .2 hours of solo cross country which usually ends up taking another 1.3-1.5 anyways.
 
Actually the dual / solo aeronautical experience requirements for PPL under Part 61 and 141 are exactly the same except for the minimum required total hours (40 vs 35). However, regardless of the minimum hours, most pilots still average 65 hours or so to get their PPL. The more consistently you fly, the faster you will learn and less overall time and expense it will take to get your license.
 
dmspilot said:
It's a way for the FAA to throw flight schools and students a bone and get them to put up with more red tape.

I believe the justification is that the FAA approved syllabus and the groundschool requirement (I believe 35 hours of ground time is required under 141, no minimum under 61) makes up for the reduced flight time, but most people aren't going to finish in 40 flight hours let alone 35 regardless of which type of school.
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That is true. You'll pay for the 35 hours of ground school under 141...can't imagine anyone doing it for no additional charge. Under 61, you can use a home-study, prep course or whatever on your own time and budget. That would save $$ too. Same written exam regardless. Even at a low, low rate of say $30/hr for ground school, that's $1050 just for ground school as compared to say $99 for Gleim's on-line ground school.

I'f you're studying on a full-time basis for a career as a professional pilot, these programs are likely for you, especially if you're not fairly adept at self-study. However, if you want to get a PPL and an instrument rating, you're probably much better off going part 61. You just have to find a good, reliable instructor.
 
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I have also been under the impression that part 141 is more targeted for people how want to go commercial. Many of the 141 schools the PPL is just a bump in the road, and are really mapped out further. The part 141 school in my area does not even offer PPL as a separate thing anymore (in most cases). The do initial training and IFR at the same time in 75 to 80 hours, and the students will often be set up to do both check rides in the same day. Granted that is flying 4 to 5 days per week, and they get it done in about 3 months.
 
I started flying on 9/13/82 and walked into the examiner's office for my PPL ride on 12/26/82 with exactly 43.0 hrs. TT flying Part 61. And back then, you had to do 20 solo, including 10 XC with one XC of 300NM landing at 3 airports 100NM apart. That one took me 5.1 hrs to complete - by today's standards all that is required for XC. Bad move by the FAA. 5 hrs. XC is not sufficient to turn a new PPL loose IMHO. Later as a CFI, CFII, and MEI I flew with several 141 pilots for checkouts in our rental planes. For the most part, they were not as competent as my students. Not bragging - just telling it like it was. Also, for some comedy relief, got to checkout several airlines pilots. 2 flew 747's, 1 flew L1011, (these 3 were all captains) and 1 first officer who was the only one I never took out of the traffic pattern. He nailed heading, speed, and altitude like the gauges were broke. No sense wasting his or my time - he knew how to fly a 152. Take these guys out of their element, and they sure are fun to fly with! LOL
 
thanks for the response, and a good cross reference of answers. Scott actually i do plan on doing the ground school portion of the ppl totaly free with the exception of books and equipment (ie. e6b , plotter, sectionals, etc) and of course the written which everybody has to pay anyway. With that being said i have an ace in the hole as it were. my former instructer when i first started long time ago is also my mother so i get her time for free well maybe not for free but taking her to dinner a few times is alot cheaper than paying an instructer lol .i will be able to pass the written before my first lesson and have a leg up on all other students because of that. I know its not comparing apples to apples but. i dont agree that , just because its a structured course i dont believe they should be cut any slack, if the ppl is just a stepping stone to a professional job , their are probably going to be instructing for a while building their hours to the ATP so if their being shorted in the begining what does that lack of experiance do to their teaching? jmho
 
SbestCFII said:
The formal structure of the program is the difference. The hours differences are minimal in a practical sense, as the 141 schools typically cost more. If you want to get in the air, find an accelerated program and devote the 2-3 weeks it takes to complete your ticket. This will generally save your time and money. Pecking at your rating can cost you thousands more when your stretch it out over time.
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That.


Also with the national average of 60hrs to get a PPL, who cares about the FAA mins of 35 vs 40 :dunno:

Pick the cheapest option, and find the best instructor.

Part 141 vs 61 make no difference for people looking to become professional pilots, infact part 61 allows you to tailor your training to target your specific field, ie 0-CPL for AG flying, or for twin flying, or for float flying.


The two biggest factors in flight training.

Cost
Instructor

The cost also will relate to the quality of instructor too.

Really, find the best CFI, find the cheapest aircraft you both can fit in and fly.

If you're really smart (which most are not) you'll get your PPL in a old tailwheel plane, or better yet in a glider.
 
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Crane Pilot said:
ok since ive been looking at the FAR's i noticed that, if you enrolled in a 141 school you only need a min. of 35 hrs for the ppl but if your in a 61 school you need 40 for your ppl. the big question is , why the difference? The second question is what are they dropping or doing less of in the 141. I will be a new old starting again student pilot eventually so i was just curious, not that i am considering going to a 141 school or anything.
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The formally structured syllabus and training program that has been FAA approved is the difference. 141 programs definitely have their place, if you are trying to get into the right seat of an airliner, it'll be the fastest route, not only because of the reduced hours to get your ratings, but because the size of the operations and structure of the programs flies you more frequently and is less prone to cancelled flights. There is of course the $$$ premium to be paid for all of this.
 
Henning said:
The formally structured syllabus and training program that has been FAA approved is the difference. 141 programs definitely have their place, if you are trying to get into the right seat of an airliner, it'll be the fastest route, not only because of the reduced hours to get your ratings, but because the size of the operations and structure of the programs flies you more frequently and is less prone to cancelled flights. There is of course the $$$ premium to be paid for all of this.
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And yet ATP Inc, which specializes in turning out regional airline wannabes is part 61.
 
James331 said:
And yet ATP Inc, which specializes in turning out regional airline wannabes is part 61.
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Really, interesting, I didn't know that. So they can't do GI Bill guys? I agree that it's not the pt 141 part of the operation that makes it more efficient, it's the size of the operation keeping people flying by having enough planes and instructors to minimize cancelled lessons. Used to be plenty of Pt 61 operations big enough, not so many anymore.
 
Well James i know the ol not to smart pilot rule, like "how does a pilot make a million dollars , he starts with 2 million. but i have a plan of action for getting my ppl, i plan on flying at least 3 times a week, and working my way through to the ATP gaining my cfi,ii, and mei along the way. Im not wealthy just planning for the future now. Finding a good instructor will be the challenge. I have a few 61 schools in the area to choose from and will be interviewing the school as well as the instructors. As a side note the x country stuff i will make sure i plan a longer than normal flight just so i dont get caught up in the "missed it by that much" phrase, i will be over it by at least an hour. i mean your up there to build your x country time and enjoy the flight whats the hurry to get back on the ground.
 
Crane Pilot said:
Well James i know the ol not to smart pilot rule, like "how does a pilot make a million dollars , he starts with 2 million. but i have a plan of action for getting my ppl, i plan on flying at least 3 times a week, and working my way through to the ATP gaining my cfi,ii, and mei along the way. Im not wealthy just planning for the future now. Finding a good instructor will be the challenge. I have a few 61 schools in the area to choose from and will be interviewing the school as well as the instructors. As a side note the x country stuff i will make sure i plan a longer than normal flight just so i dont get caught up in the "missed it by that much" phrase, i will be over it by at least an hour. i mean your up there to build your x country time and enjoy the flight whats the hurry to get back on the ground.
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Cross Country isn't time based, it's distance based, that's why where I trained we did XCs in faster complex or HP airplanes because the difference in time pretty much made it a wash in cost with a slower 152 or 172, and we picked up our endorsements and check out in those planes for future use for the same $$$ making it more cost efficient in the long run.
 
Henning said:
Really, interesting, I didn't know that. So they can't do GI Bill guys?
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Correct, but I think they went that way for a reason. If you look at their CFI/I/MEI program for example, it is half the cost of similar programs done by 141 schools like Aerosim.

Post 9/11 GI Bill limits are around $11K per year. Aerosim is around $22k for the same thing. So if a guy like me wants to use GI Bill to get my CFI ratings, I'm still paying over $10k out of pocket, unless I want to spread the training out over 2 years. Or I can just suck it up and pay out of pocket to do it under part 61 and save the GI Bill for something else like a type rating.

I think that is why ATP chose not to pursue the 141.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Correct, but I think they went that way for a reason. If you look at their CFI/I/MEI program for example, it is half the cost of similar programs done by 141 schools like Aerosim.

Post 9/11 GI Bill limits are around $11K per year. Aerosim is around $22k for the same thing. So if a guy like me wants to use GI Bill to get my CFI ratings, I'm still paying over $10k out of pocket, unless I want to spread the training out over 2 years. Or I can just suck it up and pay out of pocket to do it under part 61 and save the GI Bill for something else like a type rating.

I think that is why ATP chose not to pursue the 141.
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Makes sense, how does the cost compete with American Flyers? I haven't looked in a long time but IIRC AF and AllATPs were pretty competitively priced, and I'm pretty sure AF is 141.
 
[email protected] said:
Isn't it both?
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It depends on which part you do it under. Pt 61 requires 5 hours of solo cross country which must meet the distance requirements. Pt 141 just requires one solo cross country that meets the distance requirement.

Pt 61 requires 10 hours of solo including 5 hours of solo cross country.
Pt 141 requires 5 hours of solo which includes the one required solo cross country.
 
Henning said:
Cross Country isn't time based, it's distance based,

how can you say it isnt time based?:nono: you need 5 hrs of solo x country, so if you take a long x-country and it meets the distance requirements but you only have 2.5 hrs of time in it you still need 2.5 hrs of x-country , so that makes it time based with a min. mileage requirement.and a x-country flight is a min. of 50 nm from the point of origin. either way i plan on taking a long trip to satisfy the mileage and time requirements plus some and enjoy the friendly skys and fresh air.
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Crane Pilot said:
Well James i know the ol not to smart pilot rule, like "how does a pilot make a million dollars , he starts with 2 million. but i have a plan of action for getting my ppl, i plan on flying at least 3 times a week, and working my way through to the ATP gaining my cfi,ii, and mei along the way. Im not wealthy just planning for the future now. Finding a good instructor will be the challenge. I have a few 61 schools in the area to choose from and will be interviewing the school as well as the instructors. As a side note the x country stuff i will make sure i plan a longer than normal flight just so i dont get caught up in the "missed it by that much" phrase, i will be over it by at least an hour. i mean your up there to build your x country time and enjoy the flight whats the hurry to get back on the ground.
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Flying 3 times a week will pay off big time.

Bah, you can make money in aviation, it's just tuffer than other professions, biggest issue you will have is once you're a CPL finding the right jobs to get you from CPL to 2500hrs (this is where you will qualify for the better QOL jobs) while checking all the official and unofficial boxes along the way.

I'm a career pilot, nothing I'd rather be doing.


Seriously you really should look into getting your PPL and building a good chunk of hours in a glider, you'll be a better pilot for it, it will make getting your first job and other jobs easier, many chief pilots look very highly on glider time, plus it will save you money, which will make you life after school that much easier. Side note, I've really never met a crappy glider CFI, these guys tend to have thousand upon thousands of hours, many have very notable aviation backgrounds and connections.

http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFly
 
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Thanks for the info James ill look into it, never really thought of glider training as helpfull with the exception of learning best glide speed for engine outs , unfortunatly where i live there is only one glider place in the area according to ssa website. but i will definatly keep it as an option or put it on the to do list. i also plan on being a career pilot weather its just as a full time cfi or maybe fly 135 or even 121 , it all depends on the job market at that time. All i know is im getting out of my current profession as a crane operator and going back to flying. Being 46 yo now time is the important issue.
 
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