Parachute Jumping & a Victor Airway

[Len Lanetti]

A jump school must have started operating at the Pennridge airport (in PA, N70 is the airport identifier). I'm getting a NOTAM regarding parachute jumping with just about every FSS briefing I receive.

Now the Pennridge airport is practically right under an intersection of two Victor Airways (V405 & V147). I know the intersection has a name but it escapes me at the moment. It is in between SPUDS and MAZIE on V147.

So, I know you can't perform aerobatcis within 4 nautical miles of the centerline of an airway {FAR 91.303 (d)}. The wording of that regulation appears very similar to the wording of FAR Part 105 but Part 105 lacks any reference to Victor Airways.

Based on my reading of Part 105 visibility and cloud clearance requirements for parachute operations for that geographic area is 3 miles, 500 below, 1,000 above and 2,000 horizontal when parachuting is done from 1,200 AGL to 10,000 MSL.

I know that the parachute PIC has to communicate with the controlling authority (PHL Approach in this case). So anyone else on an IFR flight plan or getting flight following will (should) hear about the parachute ops in progress.

Just wondering about other people's thoughts.

Len

 

[wsuffa]

A jump school must have started operating at the Pennridge airport (in PA, N70 is the airport identifier). I'm getting a NOTAM regarding parachute jumping with just about every FSS briefing I receive.

Now the Pennridge airport is practically right under an intersection of two Victor Airways (V405 & V147). I know the intersection has a name but it escapes me at the moment. It is in between SPUDS and MAZIE on V147.

Happens more than you might think.

When I lived in Cincinnati there was an active parachute jump operation at the Richmond, INdiana airport. The RID VOR is located on the field, and there are several airways that intersect there. Dick Madding, if he's around, can tell you some horror stories.

As for me, once I learned that the jumpers operated there, I avoided RID as a waypoint.

bill

 

[Anthony]

Len. Have you ever landed at Cross Keys (17N)? I knew there was parachute ops there, but didn't expect them to land so close to the airport. It was raining chutes when I went in there last. Safe, but it took a little to get used to them being so close. They do annouce a lot and seem to run a good op.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I have heard a few times now, other chatgroups, where there is discussion about the airspace used by aircraft and skydivers and the conclusion arrived at each time is that neither of us have the right of way over the other; we have to share the airspace, none of us 'owns' it or has the right to ask the other to leave, as unsafe as that may seem). Someone tell me if that is not how the laws are written.
In any case, it would make sense to me if one group or the other could make accomodations to allow us to all coexist, such as moving a DZ to a less busy airport or moving a VOR & airways away from a busy DZ-airport.

 

[Ken Ibold]

In any case, it would make sense to me if one group or the other could make accomodations to allow us to all coexist, such as moving a DZ to a less busy airport or moving a VOR & airways away from a busy DZ-airport.

Just move all the parachutists to Washington DC. Ain't many airplanes in the air around there ...

 

[Dick Madding]

Stewart used to operate at Waynesville, OH. Reportedly, he and his dad disagreed, so the younger moved his operation to Richmond, IN. He has a large operation and holds lots of events, so if you're around there any weekend, check notams and use caution. Son lived near there for a couple of years and I was in and out regularly. Stewart's crowd does a good job with the radio. The big problem at the uncontrolled airport is that their operation works best [most expedient] using 15/33, while the winds usually favor the 24 of the long instrumented runway 6/24. The kicker is that the takeoff end of 24 cannot be seen from the takeoff end of 15. There was one intersection collision with 2 practice aircraft[fatality] before Stewart arrived while both were doing touch & goes at dusk. With the intensity of parachute ops, I'm sure someone has had problems. I never did, but was acutely aware of the situation and acted accordingly.

The horror story I encountered was at Frankfort, IN, where the skydive operator permitted jumpers to jump thru clouds, and I don't mean scattered or even broken, but rather solid decks over 1000 ft. thick. I encountered this and complained to the FAA. They said they knew about it but could take no action. 10 years later I read in the Evansville paper where the airport operator refused to renew the skydive operator's lease due to jumping thru clouds and the inherent insurance issues. So I suggest that if you encounter problems, document them, have several, and talk to the airport operator, perhaps eventually asking him who his insurance carrier is.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I know that the parachute PIC has to communicate with the controlling authority

True.

(PHL Approach in this case). So anyone else on an IFR flight plan or getting flight following will (should) hear about the parachute ops in progress.

Possibly (probably) not true. Most likely New York Center since the jump is usually done 10,000+ AGL and I believe New York Center owns the airspace above PHL Class B altitude.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Lenny:

Enroute to San Diego from Dallas I have frequently heard transmissions between a jump aircraft and Albuquerque Center when I'm just southeast of Phoenix on the airway. Normally, center asks the jump aircraft to wait for me to pass, or asks for it to get a visual on me. Definitely treats me as if I have priority. I've never been asked to divert or hold, but have been given a traffic alert.

Best,

Dave
N2024Q

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Normally, center asks the jump aircraft to wait for me to pass, or asks for it to get a visual on me. Definitely treats me as if I have priority. I've never been asked to divert or hold, but have been given a traffic alert.

You definitely have right-of-way prior to jumper release:
§ 105.5 General.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or to persons or property on the surface.


However, once the jumper leaves the aircraft I believe case law will prove that the jumper has right-of-way (see the Piper/jumper collision in the US NE, the jumper prevailed against the pilot's estate).

 

[astanley]

So, I know you can't perform aerobatcis within 4 nautical miles of the centerline of an airway {FAR 91.303 (d)}. The wording of that regulation appears very similar to the wording of FAR Part 105 but Part 105 lacks any reference to Victor Airways.

I forget the website, but the AT&T / Lucent CFI-IA/MEI/ATP out of NJ, who runs the "free aviation book" website, got a dispensation from this from the FSDO - he posted a image of the letter he got back as authorization. I cannot remember his name for the life of me and I'm under a serious deadline (PoA keeps me from going insane), but I figured I'd point this out.

Cheers,

-andrew

 

[grattonja]

They have been jumping pretty close to East Texas VOR lately. I noticed extra notams this time and heard some calls also. There are a number of airways that go through ETX, it is a major conduit in central eastern PA. Jumpers anywhere around me make me very nervous. I had jumpers over Hazelton (HZL) a couple of years ago during a fly in breakfast. They were landing right on the airport center, with a whole string of aircraft waiting to take off. Made me nervous as hell.

Jim G

 

[BillG]

You should take a jumper flying. I was nervous, too, until I did that a couple of years ago. He explained where they are, where they're going, and how it all works from their point of view (he was a pilot, too). Once I understood better where to look for them, how long they were actually in the air, and where exactly they were going, it made a lot more sense. There isn't actually as much to be worried about as you might think...

 

[Len Lanetti]

Len. Have you ever landed at Cross Keys (17N)?

Yes but not in awhile.

Operating in the vicinity of people that have jumped out of a plane is unsettling to me.

Len

 

[grattonja]

You should take a jumper flying. I was nervous, too, until I did that a couple of years ago. He explained where they are, where they're going, and how it all works from their point of view (he was a pilot, too). Once I understood better where to look for them, how long they were actually in the air, and where exactly they were going, it made a lot more sense. There isn't actually as much to be worried about as you might think...

That sounds like an excellent recommendation. I will add it to my mental list of training things to do. It would be nice to see how it all works. Some day I figure to give it a try, anyway. Jumping that is.

Jim G

 

[Len Lanetti]

Possibly (probably) not true. Most likely New York Center since the jump is usually done 10,000+ AGL and I believe New York Center owns the airspace above PHL Class B altitude.

[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm. I've heard them on PHL. I hope what you are saying is not true as, from my observations, most folks in this area don't climb high enough to talk to NY.

Len

 

[MSmith]

A jump school must have started operating at the Pennridge airport (in PA, N70 is the airport identifier). I'm getting a NOTAM regarding parachute jumping with just about every FSS briefing I receive.

Now the Pennridge airport is practically right under an intersection of two Victor Airways (V405 & V147). I know the intersection has a name but it escapes me at the moment. It is in between SPUDS and MAZIE on V147.

So, I know you can't perform aerobatcis within 4 nautical miles of the centerline of an airway {FAR 91.303 (d)}. The wording of that regulation appears very similar to the wording of FAR Part 105 but Part 105 lacks any reference to Victor Airways.

Based on my reading of Part 105 visibility and cloud clearance requirements for parachute operations for that geographic area is 3 miles, 500 below, 1,000 above and 2,000 horizontal when parachuting is done from 1,200 AGL to 10,000 MSL.

I know that the parachute PIC has to communicate with the controlling authority (PHL Approach in this case). So anyone else on an IFR flight plan or getting flight following will (should) hear about the parachute ops in progress.

Just wondering about other people's thoughts.

Len

I was flying safety pilot for a friend back in January or February. We chose to avoid PTW because of the jumpers that we heard on PHL Approach - they were having a hard time directing people around them.

I called the FSS from Lancaster, and they couldn't find anything about jumping at Pennridge. No NOTAM, nothing in the A/FD, Nothing.

We went via PTW on the way back, and the jumping had ended for the day (it was getting really hazy).

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Len. Have you ever landed at Cross Keys (17N)? I knew there was parachute ops there, but didn't expect them to land so close to the airport. It was raining chutes when I went in there last. Safe, but it took a little to get used to them being so close. They do annouce a lot and seem to run a good op.

Anthony -

That's why Cross Keys has a non-standard pattern. As I recall it, parachutes stay north of the runway, aircraft south.

Never did like that airport, especially with that ******* pine tree at the approach end of 27.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Hmmmm. I've heard them on PHL. I hope what you are saying is not true as, from my observations, most folks in this area don't climb high enough to talk to NY.

Len[/QUOTE]

I am virtually certain that New York Center owns 10,000 MSL. 14CFR105.13 requires the jump pilot to make calls to the facility owning the controlled airspace into which the jumpers will exit the aircraft. Since most jumps are released 10,000 AGL that puts the jump plane and the jumper exit squarely into New York Center airspace. The calls you heard would have been the lower altitude initial contact call or perhaps even a lower altitude release call. At various points in their jump life skydivers will do anything from a "hop & pop" from 2,000' AGL to a required training jump at what my foggy memory tells me is 4,000 or maybe 6,000 AGL. They also will jump from lower if a cloud deck stops the jumpers from releasing at 10,000 AGL. In those lower altitude release cases the jumper call would be to PHL approach since the exit altitude is then in PHL airspace.

An alternate example of the above airspace situation regarding which I am very familiar is Chambersburg, PA. Airport elevation is 697'. Harrisburg approach owns the airspace up to 8,000' MSL, above that is New York Center. Coming out of Chambersburg with divers I would contact Harrisburg and tell them the first drop altitude. If I had a two altitude load I might drop one in Harrisburg airspace and then another in New York airspace. The usual drop altitude is 11,000 MSL. Crossing 8,000' Harrisburg would pass me to New York center. Anyone monitoring Harrisburg would hear my initial contact call but would not hear any additional calls unless I dropped divers at or below 8,000' MSL.

 

[Anthony]

Anthony -

That's why Cross Keys has a non-standard pattern. As I recall it, parachutes stay north of the runway, aircraft south.

Never did like that airport, especially with that ******* pine tree at the approach end of 27.

Yes, Bob, that is correct. It works, but its still a little strange the first time you encounter the jumpers.

 

[Len Lanetti]

I am virtually certain that New York Center owns 10,000 MSL.

Ed,

I'm certain of that too.

I may have heard a call to PHL Approach during the climb or descent. Possibly NY coordinates with PHL Approach and PHL Approach announces on the frequency for the lower altitude.

I'm curious now.

Len