Panthera - 390k - for the KIT !!!!

Art VanDelay

Art VanDelay

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Art VanDelay
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I did a little digging on this plane because I really like the looks and like the idea of it being offered in an experimental version. What I found out was a bit disheartening. I think that number might also include the lycoming IO-390 but I'm not sure.

Additionally you have to go to Slovakia and build the entire kit there because of specialized jigs and tooling.

I think for that kind of coin a fellow could find a nice low mileage SR22T with FIKI far easier !
 
Art VanDelay said:
I did a little digging on this plane because I really like the looks and like the idea of it being offered in an experimental version. What I found out was a bit disheartening. I think that number might also include the lycoming IO-390 but I'm not sure.

Additionally you have to go to Slovakia and build the entire kit there because of specialized jigs and tooling.

I think for that kind of coin a fellow could find a nice low mileage SR22T with FIKI far easier !
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Well, sure, but that's not really comparing apples-to-apples is it? Compare it to a NEW SR22T and you're ahead by $400K+.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Additionally you have to go to Slovakia and build the entire kit there because of specialized jigs and tooling
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Is it with factory guidance like one or two of the other EAB's? Any information on how long you need to plan to be at the factory?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Is it with factory guidance like one or two of the other EAB's? Any information on how long you need to plan to be at the factory?
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It is with assistance but no information on how long it takes. They have yet to have someone do this. I would think the population of individuals successful enough to afford this and also have enough time to spend away from work or business to do this would be a very small one.
 
Also standard list price on an SR22 is $540,000. Not that bad really. With A/C and FIKI you are looking at more like 600k
 
Art VanDelay said:
Additionally you have to go to Slovakia and build the entire kit there because of specialized jigs and tooling.
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The kit has allegedly been around for a couple of years. Anyone seen a Panthera flying other than the prototype? It's still a vapor product.
 
"kit" planes are just getting out of hand. They are all carbon fiber now and pretty much built for you, all you have to do is assemble them now. That has driven kit prices out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Even Van's aircraft are slowly getting out of reach for most.
 
dell30rb said:
Also standard list price on an SR22 is $540,000. Not that bad really. With A/C and FIKI you are looking at more like 600k
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Yeah but I could find a couple examples of nice used SR22s for far less than 540 and I don't have to go overseas and build them either.
 
Grum.Man said:
"kit" planes are just getting out of hand. They are all carbon fiber now and pretty much built for you, all you have to do is assemble them now. That has driven kit prices out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Even Van's aircraft are slowly getting out of reach for most.
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You have a good point. What is the cause of the increase in price? Materials? Liability?
 
kurttruk said:
You have a good point. What is the cause of the increase in price? Materials? Liability?
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Factory completed tasks (prepunching, for instance), scale and completeness of kits, and fit and finish upgrades like fancy paint, Lexus quality interiors, and Gulfstream-like panels.
 
kurttruk said:
You have a good point. What is the cause of the increase in price? Materials? Liability?
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More expensive materials such as carbon fiber, more work being done for the builder at the factory, pre-welded fuselages, pre-cut pre punched and dimpled skins. An RV-4 used to be around 17k for the kit, they added pre-punched wings and the price went up to over 18k. The RV-8 takes it a step further with the fabrication work done for the builder and the price is over 23k. The RV-14 went a step further than that and it is 33k granted it's a larger airplane but you get the drift.
 
dell30rb said:
Also standard list price on an SR22 is $540,000. Not that bad really. With A/C and FIKI you are looking at more like 600k
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You again with your facts. Get with the plan here, a new Cirrus costs '1 million dollars', everyone on the internet knows that.
 
kyleb said:
Factory completed tasks (prepunching, for instance), scale and completeness of kits, and fit and finish upgrades like fancy paint, Lexus quality interiors, and Gulfstream-like panels.
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The kit makers are trying to respond to what the market is demanding.

If Vans, for example, went back to a kit where all the holes had to be laid out and drilled, and jigs made to assemble (like the old days), I suspect their kit sales would dry up materially. Over time their planes have gotten bigger (RV6 -->RV14), faster (RV4 -->RV8) and more complex (RV10). That seems what the market has wanted. None of that comes without a cost. They still look like good value to me.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Yeah but I could find a couple examples of nice used SR22s for far less than 540 and I don't have to go overseas and build them either.
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That.

Roughly 416k US for a kit plane built in Slovenia? Or Italy? Maybe I'm missing something, but no thank you.

And the time value of putting it together here... again, no thank you.

And who knows what resale would be. I'll pass.

It would be fun to do a kit plane, but it'd certainly be a Vans if I went that route.
 
There are tons of kits out there under less known names. There are plenty of plans out there if you want to build from scratch. Yes the kit prices are a bit off putting but you still have plenty of options if you're willing to go less mainstream.
 
weilke said:
You again with your facts. Get with the plan here, a new Cirrus costs '1 million dollars', everyone on the internet knows that.
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There are three Cirrus piston models. Each in a different price/performance niche. All equipped with a BRS chute standard.

$389,900 for the SR20 https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-SR20-United-States-Pricelist.pdf
$539,900 for the SR22 https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-SR22-United-States-Pricelist.pdf
$639,900 for the SR22T https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-SR22T-United-States-Pricelist.pdf
 
citizen5000 said:
There are three Cirrus piston models. Each in a different price/performance niche. All equipped with a BRS chute standard.

$389,900 for the SR20 https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-SR20-United-States-Pricelist.pdf
$539,900 for the SR22 https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-SR22-United-States-Pricelist.pdf
$639,900 for the SR22T https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-SR22T-United-States-Pricelist.pdf
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Whoosh...
 
100_0762.JPG 100_0497.JPG There are plenty of options for aircraft but you just have to put your dang phone down, shut off the tv and do some work. Everybody has the same BS excuse these days that they don't have the time, they are to busy, they have no experience, no tools, cannot weld blah blah blah blah. I bet if you logged the amount of time you spend dicking off on your phone or playing video game/watching the boob tube you would have been able to build a plane in no time!
 
Hmm, I can get a Raptor for about 260K less and go almost 100 kts faster. Yes! :p
 
You can buy an Aeronca Champ for what, 20k? And it has ELECTRIC START!!!
 
Art VanDelay said:
Yeah but what's your labor worth ?
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Not a damn thing unless I get a second job to cover the amount of time I'd spend assembling a kit.

dell30rb said:
Also standard list price on an SR22 is $540,000. Not that bad really. With A/C and FIKI you are looking at more like 600k
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He compared the SR22T which is a $100K+ more than the SR22, and doesn't include common options.
 
Acrodustertoo said:
View attachment 52528 View attachment 52527 There are plenty of options for aircraft but you just have to put your dang phone down, shut off the tv and do some work. Everybody has the same BS excuse these days that they don't have the time, they are to busy, they have no experience, no tools, cannot weld blah blah blah blah. I bet if you logged the amount of time you spend dicking off on your phone or playing video game/watching the boob tube you would have been able to build a plane in no time!
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Is that going to be an Acroduster? How are the plans for those?
 
Grum.Man said:
Is that going to be an Acroduster? How are the plans for those?
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AD2 to be more specific. The plans are good enough, I have had no problems so far. However, there are a few items that are not in the plans such as engine mount and a couple other small items but easy to work out if you know a bit about what is going on. I have made some changes along the way like the elevator in the picture, I scaled down the trailing edge of the wings and applied it to the elevator. It will look very nice once completed.
 
For outrageous kit prices, look at the cost of the Company Formally Known as Lancair now for their Evolution assisted build .... it's $1,000,000.00 ... the company that bought the Lancair rights excluding the Evolution are selling kits for mid $200,000.00.
 
Volzalum said:
For outrageous kit prices, look at the cost of the Company Formally Known as Lancair now for their Evolution assisted build .... it's $1,000,000.00 ... the company that bought the Lancair rights excluding the Evolution are selling kits for mid $200,000.00.
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The Lancair Evolution (company renamed Evolution) is a $450k kit. If you do an assist build with a Pratt Turboprop the end cost is $1.5m. The gas version is said to be a tad less.
 
Grum.Man said:
More expensive materials such as carbon fiber, more work being done for the builder at the factory, pre-welded fuselages, pre-cut pre punched and dimpled skins. An RV-4 used to be around 17k for the kit, they added pre-punched wings and the price went up to over 18k. The RV-8 takes it a step further with the fabrication work done for the builder and the price is over 23k. The RV-14 went a step further than that and it is 33k granted it's a larger airplane but you get the drift.
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When I bought my RV-6 kits, the total of the 4 kits was under $10k. That was 20 years ago. The -7 kit added about $7k when it was introduced 17 years ago for a little bigger airframe, prepunched. RV-7 price increases since then have been inflation related.

And, as a poster clearly pointed out, the manufacturers are responding to the market. Van's (among others), is going the extra mile to drive the purchase of ancillary equipment (engines, prop's, avionics, and a host of other things) from them as part of bundled deals. I suspect those bundles are a good profit source, because they are pass-through items. Buy an engine from Van's? Lycoming drop ships it to you. Buy a prop from Van's? Probably the same thing. Van's never (or barely) touches something, yet profits from the sale.
 
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I was basing it off their page where they estimate $995,000 for Piston and $1,415,000 for Turbine ...
 

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Volzalum said:
I was basing it off their page where they estimate $995,000 for Piston and $1,415,000 for Turbine ...
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One of the most complex high performance kitplanes ever. Ranks up there with the turbine Legend.
These things are expensive because they know there is a limited market volume and the engineering and materials have to deal with high speeds, high altitude, pressurized environment. This isn't an RV-8
 
The turbine engine is $500k alone.
 
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