I have student that every time we get close to stall, and even during slow flight, she panics and can't respond properly. We are at 10 hours and she has yet to stall the plane. I have never had a student this far without overcoming the fear, anyone have advice that I ca try?? I have shown her, I have explained to her, that she is in control of the situation and she cant panic. I don't want to see her get frustrated and give up yet.
Panic at stall horn
- Thread starter TommyG
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Pull the breaker until panic ceases. She will see that nothing scary happens. I think we are, in a way, conditioned to feel anxiety at the sound of horns and sirens in general. If she's apprehensive about stalls, the horn is probably sending her over the edge.
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X3 Skier
En-Route
I assume you have demoed stalls already but has she followed you through with hands / feet on the controls while you do the stall and recovery? This assumes you can overcome with your strength any tendency for her to freeze.
Cheers
Cheers
denverpilot
Tied Down
Slow flight with the stall horn on the whole time for a half hour might desensitize her enough if it's just the horn freaking her out. 
Harsh, but it'd work.
Harsh, but it'd work.She starts saying OMG OMG OMG, when I do it or help her thought it, on her own, I have got her to full stall, then she panics, and say OMG OMG what do I do, and she literally tears up from fear.
The latest thing I have been doing is getting her in slow flight flying with the stall horn going for minutes, she can do fine, I will work with her slowly pulling the yoke back, and when the stall horn, c 172 gets to the higher pitch she panics. If she gets to the buffet she panics.
When something happens she doesn't freeze up, she panics and doesn't know what to do, even though we have discussed what to do, we have talked about that she is in control, I have shown her everything possible, even pulling full idle and let the plane descend 2000 ft, just to show her the stability of the plane, and that nothing bad will happen.
denverpilot
Tied Down
P.S. Then just show her a gentle pull to the stall buffet and recover back to slow flight to show its possible to just stay there. (Although that will probably screw up Primacy big time if you're shooting for an instinctive instant full recovery at the horn in situations where a stall is not desired.)
dell30rb
Final Approach
Put a piece of FAA approved duct tape over it. She'll have to get used to it eventually though, don't need panic attacks when climbing out in turbulence and its squeaking, or late in the flare..
This might be obvious but have you demonstrated stalls to her several times? With her hands off of the controls and you in control of the airplane.
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
At some point as an instructor you must start to question whether or not someone is actually physiologically capable of operating an airplane safely. It sucks when it comes down to that -- I'd suggest trying a bit more then have another instructor take a swing at it. If that doesn't sort it out it's time to sit down and have a talk with her.
In a non-judgemental way, and on the ground, get her to explain everything that goes through her mind when the stall is occurring. Keep notes.
Immediately, in a non-judgemental way, on the ground, go through the notes, and at each thought, ask "why?" Keep notes.
Do it twice more. Then, say, "Think about it a while and we'll discuss it before our next lesson." Do it. Let her tell you what is up.
Basically, it is her problem. Let her own it. You let go of the problem. Just be there for her to bounce her thoughts against. Let her solve the problem.
BTW, this won't work with a man. Our brains are wired differently.
Immediately, in a non-judgemental way, on the ground, go through the notes, and at each thought, ask "why?" Keep notes.
Do it twice more. Then, say, "Think about it a while and we'll discuss it before our next lesson." Do it. Let her tell you what is up.
Basically, it is her problem. Let her own it. You let go of the problem. Just be there for her to bounce her thoughts against. Let her solve the problem.
BTW, this won't work with a man. Our brains are wired differently.
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I think that's what is missing, I have been explaining to her,mi have asked about why she is scared, but it would probably be good,to have her break,it down.
Like I said her motiviation is there, says she loves roller coasters, I will give that a try, and maybe a little Inop stall horn.
I appreciate the input. And hopefully she will benefit from it.
Jeanie
Pattern Altitude
I wonder if she's learning to fly with a history of a friend or family member crashing. Doing for good ol "name". And it's some connection to their accident that scares her... Or its the fear of the unknown - what if we spin. She has heard about stall spin accidents.
It will be interesting to see what she says as the root of the panic. Listening without trying to explain it away or fis it will help. Like Peggy said, let her own it and also own what she needs to get through it.
It will be interesting to see what she says as the root of the panic. Listening without trying to explain it away or fis it will help. Like Peggy said, let her own it and also own what she needs to get through it.
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Velocity173
Perhaps she needs to take a one day intro to aerobatics. It seems she doesn't feel comfortable with her ability to control the aircraft. I don't think a buzzing sound is her problem. I think she doesn't like it when an aircraft falls out from under her. She also needs to fully undertsand the aerodynamics of the stall to ever get comfortable doing it.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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I hate to say it, but the first thought that comes into my mind is, what happens when the aircraft does something she doesn't expect?
If she can't handle normal fear, I don't see how you can solo her.
I know I had two "oh ****" moments during training. Both were dual, but I was twice the size of my instructor. This would not have been a good situation had I panicked. As it was, I kept calm and figured it out.
If she can't handle normal fear, I don't see how you can solo her.
I know I had two "oh ****" moments during training. Both were dual, but I was twice the size of my instructor. This would not have been a good situation had I panicked. As it was, I kept calm and figured it out.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
Not trying to come across as too harsh - but the simple facts are that not everyone is cut out to be a pilot. At some point you (and her) may have to answer that question. Beyond the solo question, the DPE is going to want to see a full stall demonstrated and it will not reflect well on you as a CFI if he has to recover the airplane for her.
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Or, you could just give up on her.
Most guys do.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Or, you could just give up on her.
[citation needed]
Threefingeredjack
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I will never be a concert grade pianist, nor a great painter. Talent and psychological constitution are not equally distributed.
Jeanie
Pattern Altitude
I can put her in touch with a lady pilot in new York who can be her friend and listening post if you think support like that will help her. Let me know and I'll PM you the womans contact info. And, naturally, she is welcome to call me.
DaleB
Final Approach
My first question is -- has she had ground school yet? Does she really understand what is happening in the stall? It sounds to me like she may have a misunderstanding of what a stall really is, and how far in advance of the event that whistle starts letting you know you'd better watch for it. If I didn't understand the aerodynamics of what was going on, a stall would scare the hell out of me.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
No breaker on a Cessna. I would think that deliberate disabling of a warning device would not be kosher.
Just fly around at MCA with the horn on, adapt to the idea that nothing bad is going to happen.
We had our own little "Cybil" learning to fly. She'll either get over it, or she'll stop flying. Ours got through it and completed her rating.
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MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Or, you could just give up on her.
Well, one needs to reason through what success looks like before ruling out failure.
The stall panic is the immediate symptom. The real issue is how she processes fear. Panic in the cockpit is a very bad thing; the variable here is, will it show up at any other unexpected time?
Without knowing the person involved, I'd have some serious reservations without some indication that stall panic is the only problem. It doesn't sound so at first glance. There are a number of potential situations where a reasoned, clear-headed thought process is critical to survival.
Or me.
6% of pilots are women.
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
She needs to go upside down and see that nothing bad happens. That was my single biggest anxiety in early PPL training, doing departure/power on stalls. A session of spin training made me feel better immediately.
write-stuff
En-Route
Have you spent some in-depth, quality ground instruction in stalls? Explain them in detail, try to remove the fear, show how they work and explain that are not inherently dangerous. Then, in the air (at adequate altitude of course), do some stall demonstrations without the full recovery - that is, just show the line between stalling and flying without worrying about loss of altitude. With that mastered, she may be able to move on to more aggressive recoveries where you limit loss of altitude.
DaleB
Final Approach
Edit: Y'know what, though? I'm just going to bow out of this now, so as not to sidetrack the thread or cause any hurt feelings.
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Everskyward
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I would be curious about what her motivation is for learning how to fly? Is she being pressured by her husband or someone else? Is this something she really wants to do?
Regardless of someone's gender they need to get over the tendency to panic or they will never be safe by themselves in the airplane. The airplane doesn't care if you are male or female.
Regardless of someone's gender they need to get over the tendency to panic or they will never be safe by themselves in the airplane. The airplane doesn't care if you are male or female.
Agreed.
Everskyward
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I don't think "giving up" is a gender related thing. I know a number of men who have started flying lessons then decided it wasn't their cup of tea. In fact I had one man tell me recently, "I figured out it wasn't for me." Men may be less willing to express nervousness, especially around other men, but that doesn't mean they don't feel it.
John Baker
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She might have a fear of the plane going into a spin, but who knows. One thing for sure, she is afraid of something. There is a technique called "flooding" that will usually cure people of their fears. What that entails is exposing them to the fear, while you act completely normal, like you were picking apples and chatting at the same time.
We used to help guys get over their fear of snakes, by handling snakes during bull sessions, then just handing them one. Same way with being in the swamps, we'd spend the night in swamps with them, while ignoring that we were in a swamp at night.
You might try just taking her for a few airplane rides that involve lots of stalls and spins, take her through the worst of her fears, while your flinging the bull about something completely different. Convince her that what you are doing is normal, nothing wrong with it, by completely ignoring it yourself. Handle spins like you would handle a carnival ride, like it is fun, not fearful.
You do the driving, tell her it's a fun ride, nothing more. You will have to pay for it, but you get to keep your student once she becomes "flooded".
I'm not guaranteeing you this will work, simply because I don't know if you can deliver it properly. You are in the position where you are about to lose your student anyway, so what the heck, what do you have to lose?
-John
We used to help guys get over their fear of snakes, by handling snakes during bull sessions, then just handing them one. Same way with being in the swamps, we'd spend the night in swamps with them, while ignoring that we were in a swamp at night.
You might try just taking her for a few airplane rides that involve lots of stalls and spins, take her through the worst of her fears, while your flinging the bull about something completely different. Convince her that what you are doing is normal, nothing wrong with it, by completely ignoring it yourself. Handle spins like you would handle a carnival ride, like it is fun, not fearful.
You do the driving, tell her it's a fun ride, nothing more. You will have to pay for it, but you get to keep your student once she becomes "flooded".
I'm not guaranteeing you this will work, simply because I don't know if you can deliver it properly. You are in the position where you are about to lose your student anyway, so what the heck, what do you have to lose?
-John
TMetzinger
Final Approach
I think Peggy's advice is good, as well as putting her in touch with a female CFI.
Question, how did/does she react if she's a passenger and you stall the airplane?
If she locks up at the event whether she's controlling it or not, then it's very important that she figure out what it is that causes that reaction, because if she can't master it, she won't be able to be a pilot.
Question, how did/does she react if she's a passenger and you stall the airplane?
If she locks up at the event whether she's controlling it or not, then it's very important that she figure out what it is that causes that reaction, because if she can't master it, she won't be able to be a pilot.
Keith Lane
Pattern Altitude
Flying either as a passenger or as crew can do weird things to otherwise rational people. I have a friend who's (now -ex) wife would not fly commercial (NFW would she go GA) because she said while in flight in her mind's eye, she kept seeing her seat crashing through the bottom of the plane and she hurtled to earth strapped to her seat while she could "see" the plane continue on with a hole in the bottom of the fuselage. The other scene that replayed itself was she was "looking toward the front of the passenger cabin, and it began to crumple up towards her like being inside an aluminum can while someone stepped on it".
I told her that both of those (especially the seat thing) were impossible, but no matter, she was irreversibly, unshakably terrified of flying because of those visions.
I told her that both of those (especially the seat thing) were impossible, but no matter, she was irreversibly, unshakably terrified of flying because of those visions.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Not necessarily related to anything "all" or "most" male instructors are doing or not doing. Large number of other documented factors.
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Bob Gardner
Maybe this is "flooding," but it is what I would do. Get some altitude.... 4- 5000 feet... and tell her that you are going to put the airplane into a stall and the stall warner will sound continuously...she can put her fingers in her ears, whatever. Have her rest her feet lightly on the rudder pedals. Then slowly pull the stick back as far as it will go...wrap your arms around it and hold it full back. The airplane will stall (duh), then the nose will fall through, then it will enter another stall, rinse and repeat. Keep the wings level with rudder, so that she can learn that the wings can be leveled with rudder pressure. When you get comfortably low, release the back pressure and let the nose fall through into a gentle dive...when the wing starts flying she will feel it in the seat of her pants...tell her to wait for that sensation to tell her that the wing is no longer stalled.
Go back up and do it again, only this time let her wrap her arms around the yoke and hold it back while doing the rudder dance. No fingers in the ears this time. If she comes through this and still panics when she hears the stall warner she may be a hopeless case.
Good luck. I join with others in saying that you cannot let this person be certificated until she understands that she is in complete control of the airplane and it can't do anything bad unless she lets it.
Bob Gardner
Go back up and do it again, only this time let her wrap her arms around the yoke and hold it back while doing the rudder dance. No fingers in the ears this time. If she comes through this and still panics when she hears the stall warner she may be a hopeless case.
Good luck. I join with others in saying that you cannot let this person be certificated until she understands that she is in complete control of the airplane and it can't do anything bad unless she lets it.
Bob Gardner
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comanchepilot
En-Route
maybe she just does not have the emotional make up at present to be a pilot . . .
sometimes its just easier . . .
people freeze up and can be conditioned to not freeze up in the airplane during stall practice with an instructor . . . .what happens in the real world when you are not sitting right there next to her? I"m sorry but you need to consider what happens when you are not there . . . . and who else is with her -
sometimes its just easier . . .
people freeze up and can be conditioned to not freeze up in the airplane during stall practice with an instructor . . . .what happens in the real world when you are not sitting right there next to her? I"m sorry but you need to consider what happens when you are not there . . . . and who else is with her -
sacbluesman
Pre-takeoff checklist
There is a lot of good suggestions here. With any problem regardless if its aviation or not is to identify what the root is. An earlier post suggested that your student describe her thought process and ask why after each one. How else are you going to find out if you don't ask..right?
Generally speaking, and i'm only saying generally, females will vocalize their fears and be far more descriptive than males. I was a fine example of this during my primary training. Departure/power on stalls where always a time of white knuckle flying for me. I hated them. I had no problem doing power off stalls but as a student I never took the time to figure out why the issue. Since I wanted to be a tough guy in front of my instructor, I kept a pretty mean poker face and never expressed the anxiety I had.
Later on I finally figured out what the issues were that caused my anxiety...If your student is only having difficulty with power on stalls perhaps this could help.
1. When entering a high angle of attack, I'd lose the horizon and I would have a real difficult time feeling when the plane started to turn left. After I'd realize the plane was starting to go left, I'd panic and get a flood of anxiety. My eyes were rolling around in their sockets like a ball in a pachinko machine. I'd be wondering are the wings level, is the ball centered, the stall horn is blaring and airspeed is going down. A lot of stress in a short amount of time when things are happening quickly. It was burned into my head that an uncoordinated stall will get me in a spin and I would die.
The solution was to focus on a cloud if available and to really scan & interpret the AI and TC as a backup. During my primary training the skies were usually clear with no outside reference available. As a student I was focusing on the clear blue hoping for a nice coordinated recovery. I should have been looking at the gauges primarily.
2. I'd be very light on the controls. I'd pitch up but not in a very authoritative way. In essence, I was prolonging the inevitable. The engine would be screaming at 2500rpm and it would take forever to get the plane to stall. This would allow plenty of time to let the anxiety build up.
The solution for me was to continue to pitch back and maintain that desired pitch angle. What I would do is pitch for the desired amount initially but I wouldn't hold it there. As the elevator became less effective at the lower speed, it would take forever and a lot more back pressure to get the deed done.
Pay attention to her if she is allowing one of these things to happen...if all else fails, I'd me more than happy to have a lil heart to heart with her
Generally speaking, and i'm only saying generally, females will vocalize their fears and be far more descriptive than males. I was a fine example of this during my primary training. Departure/power on stalls where always a time of white knuckle flying for me. I hated them. I had no problem doing power off stalls but as a student I never took the time to figure out why the issue. Since I wanted to be a tough guy in front of my instructor, I kept a pretty mean poker face and never expressed the anxiety I had.
Later on I finally figured out what the issues were that caused my anxiety...If your student is only having difficulty with power on stalls perhaps this could help.
1. When entering a high angle of attack, I'd lose the horizon and I would have a real difficult time feeling when the plane started to turn left. After I'd realize the plane was starting to go left, I'd panic and get a flood of anxiety. My eyes were rolling around in their sockets like a ball in a pachinko machine. I'd be wondering are the wings level, is the ball centered, the stall horn is blaring and airspeed is going down. A lot of stress in a short amount of time when things are happening quickly. It was burned into my head that an uncoordinated stall will get me in a spin and I would die.
The solution was to focus on a cloud if available and to really scan & interpret the AI and TC as a backup. During my primary training the skies were usually clear with no outside reference available. As a student I was focusing on the clear blue hoping for a nice coordinated recovery. I should have been looking at the gauges primarily.
2. I'd be very light on the controls. I'd pitch up but not in a very authoritative way. In essence, I was prolonging the inevitable. The engine would be screaming at 2500rpm and it would take forever to get the plane to stall. This would allow plenty of time to let the anxiety build up.
The solution for me was to continue to pitch back and maintain that desired pitch angle. What I would do is pitch for the desired amount initially but I wouldn't hold it there. As the elevator became less effective at the lower speed, it would take forever and a lot more back pressure to get the deed done.
Pay attention to her if she is allowing one of these things to happen...if all else fails, I'd me more than happy to have a lil heart to heart with her